How Damaging is the Pentacostal / Charismatic Movement?

[papaJP]

The only damage done by the Pentacostal/Charismatic movement is that to many allow emotions instead of the Holy Spirit of God to rule them. A truly filled believer can do anything the Jesus did and even more. If you cannot they you need to seek Him. Do not follow man and do not believe everything that is called a miracle unless God confirms it for you.
If you are filled with the Holy Spirit of God you will know the truth and not be mislead by those who only say they are but are not.

 

[Dr.Strangelove]

Dr.Strangelove: Okay...I'll bite. "Godly teachers"? The Apostle Peter. "Respective teachings"? Will this suffice?

Yes that fine.

Now can you tell me about the wolves in the Pente / Charis movement please.

Tell me about what they practice and then show me how the things they do in church differ from what we see in the teachings of the apostles.

Lets examine false doctrine shall we?

WHO are the false teachers in that movement?

WHAT are they doing that is unbiblical?

HOW have so many been deceived into following them?

 

[Dr.Strangelove]

I don't know them.. the wolves OR the godly ones.

Just as I don't know the wolves or godly baptist preachers
or the wolves or godly of the RCC's preachers or the
Presbyterians preachers.

Really? You can't name a single wolf in the Pente / Charis movement?

Can't you tell the difference between good and bad?

Yep.. he does try to trick.
But the devil is always bad
God is always good.

Are you sure you can't recognise the bad fruit?

7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing,
but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of
thorns, or figs of thistles?
7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree
bringeth forth evil fruit.​

So...do you know them by their fruits?

 

[Dr.Strangelove]

Who IS damaging?
Those who misrepresent the Bible are damaging, but they're in every camp, so it's not a pent/charis thang.

Yeah but were talking about the Pente/Charis in this thread.

So WHO are the ones who misrepresent the Bible in that movement?

WHAT unbiblical practices are they doing in church?

And HOW do those practices differ from Biblical Pente/Charis practices?

Please tell us which leaders/teachers in the movement you say are respectful and Biblical and then we can compare their practices to those of the wolves.

Thats the point of this thread.

 

[Dr.Strangelove]

Nope. I love them all... I will break bread with any of them.. I will worship with any of the.
My only qualification is that they are part of the one church.
And what else is there?
I sure can't say i will only worship with those who have it all correct lol.
That'd be maybe none of us.

So you are happy to embrace anyone who calls themself Christian..no matter what their doctrines?

 

[Big Drew]

Who IS damaging?
Those who misrepresent the Bible are damaging, but they're in every camp, so it's not a pent/charis thang.

 

[Dr.Strangelove]

Here's the key. If it's not in the Bible I don't do it (Spiritually speaking)
So.. I don't fall down on the floor.. for one.
I don't speak in tongues in front of people..
And I don't speak of things that are as though they aren't.

That's called .. denial.

FINALLY.

Someones actually talkig about the topic. Ok let's examine this.

You don't 'speak in tongues' in front of people. I assume your not talking about foreign languages here but instead...uhm....gibberish. So you would say that any church where people 'speak in tongues' in public is unbiblical correct?

And also any church where people are falling around on the floor or in other ways acting in a disorderly fashion is unbiblical yes? i.e. uncontrollable giggling, 'drunk in the spirt'...'slain in the spirit'....running up and down the aisles etc.

So theres nothing like that going on in your church?

 

[Dr.Strangelove]

God has already "sorted it out".

That is why Jesus warned of false prophets and wolves in sheep's clothing, and commanded His sheep to discern the true from the counterfeit.

So....can we start doing some of that please?

I left this overnight with one post and now theres 20 pages and no-ones really discerning the good from the bad. Can we talk about Pente/Charis practices, the good and the bad, and how they differ.

Pretty please?

 

[Big Drew]

So theres nothing like that going on in your church?

Why is this so hard for you to believe? I've seen you ask a question along these lines more than once, of more than one Pentecostal/Charismatic...myself included...face it Doc, we're not all like you think we are.

It's okay to be wrong, really, it is.

 

[Dr.Strangelove]

Why is this so hard for you to believe? I've seen you ask a question along these lines more than once, of more than one Pentecostal/Charismatic...myself included...face it Doc, we're not all like you think we are.

It's okay to be wrong, really, it is.

So then why dont you help me to understand? Don't just say "we're not all the same" ....tell me WHY your not the same. Tell me the difference. You say there are 750 million Pentacostals and crow about them like they are the CORRECT MAJORITY. And then you chastise ME for grouping them all together!?

Why dont you tell me who are the wolves in the movement and how their 'spiritual gift' practices differ from your own? What seperates the unbiblical pente churches from the biblical ones. Gimme a list.

Why are you so scared to name the pastors who you endorse?

Whats with all the evasiveness?

Can you please invite some of your friends on the Pente / Charis forums to come and take part in this thread please. I don't see much involvement from them.

 

[Big Drew]

So then why dont you help me to understand? Don't just say "we're not all the same" ....tell me WHY your not the same. Tell me the difference. You say there are 750 million Pentacostals and crow about them like they are the CORRECT MAJORITY. And then you chastise ME for grouping them all together!?

Why dont you tell me who are the wolves in the movement and how their 'spiritual gift' practices differ from your own? What seperates the unbiblical pente churches from the biblical ones. Gimme a list.

Why are you so scared to name the pastors who you endorse?

Whats with all the evasiveness?

Can you please invite some of your friends on the Pente / Charis forums to come and take part in this thread please. I don't see much involvement from them.

If you go back and read my posts in this thread you'll see that I have not been being evasive, and I have given a few names...most the people I know and respect there's no sense in me listing their names because you wouldn't be able to do any research on them, as they are just local ministers.

I've also listed some of the differences...and others have done well at naming the ones that have questionable practices.

As far as folks in the Pentecostal forum...I don't go in there that much, and, well, the few people I do know from that forum...it's probably in their best interest that they stay out of a thread such as this, because they could end up posting something that may be against the rules...not everyone can handle belittling of their faith as graciously as some.

It's not hard to find my posts though...I was fairly active in the first 8 or so pages of the thread...

 

[Dr.Strangelove]

If you go back and read my posts in this thread you'll see that I have not been being evasive, and I have given a few names...most the people I know and respect there's no sense in me listing their names because you wouldn't be able to do any research on them, as they are just local ministers.

I've also listed some of the differences...and others have done well at naming the ones that have questionable practices.

As far as folks in the Pentecostal forum...I don't go in there that much, and, well, the few people I do know from that forum...it's probably in their best interest that they stay out of a thread such as this, because they could end up posting something that may be against the rules...not everyone can handle belittling of their faith as graciously as some.

It's not hard to find my posts though...I was fairly active in the first 8 or so pages of the thread...

Didn't see anything that you posted regarding practices in the church.

1) Why don't we just start by you listing how 'spiritual gifts' are used UNBIBLICALLY in some Pente / Charis churches, and then tell me how your church does it different?

2) Are there ANY well know leaders in the Pente / Charis movement TODAY that you would endorse? Is there a single one?

3) Can you name ANY WOLVES that you know of in the movement? Can you tell me why they are wolves?

4) What percentage of the 750 million Pente's do you think are following wolves and practicing unbilblical things in their churches? You've talked about how ALL of them are a shining light to the world so is that true or whats the deal do you think?

If we could just honestly talk about these points one on one, quoting eachother in a proper communication I would much appreciate it Drew.

Doc.

 

[Big Drew]

Didn't see anything that you posted regarding practices in the church.

1) Why don't we just start by you listing how 'spiritual gifts' are used UNBIBLICALLY in some Pente / Charis churches, and then tell me how your church does it different?

As I believe sunlover already pointed out, things that are done that are not in scripture....i.e. being slain in the spirit, should not be practiced. Personally, I don't have a problem if I happen to hear someone praying in tongues while they're at the altar, or during praise and worship time...in my church, at least, the sanctuary is so large where if it's only one or two then it's not really a distraction. But I do believe there is error when several are speaking in tongues simultaneously.

I see no error with active worship...raising hands, clapping, dancing...these are all scriptural, and we should worship God with our entire being...not just our heart or mind...however, folks should worship in the way they are comfortable, and they should not be ridiculed because they choose to stand or sit silently during praise and worship time...I've seen this happen, where one was persuading the other to raise their hands...let people worship how they choose.

There's no need to harp on the gifts...and contrary to what many may think, Pentecostals don't spend all of their time learning, teaching, or manifesting the gifts...most of us simply believe that they are available today, and the Spirit gives certain gifts to certain people for His glory...not ours.

At most of the P/C churches I've visited, ministered at or been a member of, the sermons are pretty much what you would hear in any other evangelical church...salvation, sanctification, the person of Christ, etc...though I have been to some that constantly preach on money and blessings...and of course the blessing come from giving them money...this is prosperity doctrine, and I'm completely opposed to that...as are the majority of Classical Pentecostals and Charismatics.

Healing is one of the gifts...at my church we have prayer time at the end of every service...the pastor and elders are at the altar to pray with anyone who needs it...this could be for healing, salvation, prayer for a loved one, or whatever...we believe God can and does heal people, but it's His will who is healed and who is not...the man at the pool of Bethesda in John's Gospel is a good example of this...there are some, typically Word of Faith, who believe that we can claim our healing, and God will do it...then when it doesn't happen they're quick to say that it was because the person's faith wasn't strong enough...this is in error, IMO.

I'm sure there are some other issues, but that's all I can think of for now...

2) Are there ANY well know leaders in the Pente / Charis movement TODAY that you would endorse? Is there a single one?

I guess I would endorse Mark Driscoll...he's a bit different...calls himself a continuist as opposed to a cessationist...there may be others I would endorse, but I don't really keep up with who's hot and who's not.

3) Can you name ANY WOLVES that you know of in the movement? Can you tell me why they are wolves?

I'm not a fan of anyone you can watch on TBN...the only one that really sticks out, though, is Rod Parsley...I happened to catch his show one day and he was teaching people how to speak in tongues...tongues is not something that can be learned, it's a gift given to us by the Holy Spirit...after watching that program I lost any respect I could have for Mr. Parsley's teaching.

4) What percentage of the 750 million Pente's do you think are following wolves and practicing unbilblical things in their churches? You've talked about how ALL of them are a shining light to the world so is that true or whats the deal do you think?

First of all, 750 million is a combined estimate of Pentecostals and Charismatics...Pentecostals are those who have their own denominations...Assemblies of God, Church of God, IPHC, Foursquare, etc...Some groups that prefer to be called Charismatic have their own denominations...Vineyard, Calvary Chapel, Sovereign Grace, perhaps a few others...but you can also find Charismatic Catholics, Methodists, Presbyterians, Anglicans, etc...Word of Faith also gets lumped into this...

So, to give you an exact percentage would be hard. I don't know the number that fall into the WoF category as they're lumped together with the Charismatics.

If we could just honestly talk about these points one on one, quoting eachother in a proper communication I would much appreciate it Drew.

Doc.

If I need to clarify anything let me know.

 

[Dr.Strangelove]

As I believe sunlover already pointed out, things that are done that are not in scripture....i.e. being slain in the spirit, should not be practiced.

Ok. Agreed. It's unbiblical. Does this kind of thing happen in many Pente / Charis churches. If you had to give a VERY rough estimate. What would it be?

Personally, I don't have a problem if I happen to hear someone praying in tongues while they're at the altar, or during praise and worship time...in my church, at least, the sanctuary is so large where if it's only one or two then it's not really a distraction. But I do believe there is error when several are speaking in tongues simultaneously.

I'm gonna presume, from our previous talks, that by tongues you mean gibberish. I know that word may be taken the wrong way by some. Sorry but theres no other word I can think of to use. Now, 1 or 2 people doing this in church is ok you say? Ok so can you watch this video and tell me if this is acceptable. If not, why? How do things work in your own church regarding tongues? How do your practices of tongues differ from the people in the video?:

YouTube - Tongues

I see no error with active worship...raising hands, clapping, dancing...these are all scriptural, and we should worship God with our entire being...not just our heart or mind...however, folks should worship in the way they are comfortable, and they should not be ridiculed because they choose to stand or sit silently during praise and worship time...I've seen this happen, where one was persuading the other to raise their hands...let people worship how they choose.

Can you show me please where raising hands, clapping, dancing is considered to be part of a Christians worship? I'm not saying your wrong but I havn't spotted those things in scripture personally.

Where do you draw the line? Running around church? Is that acceptable? Does it happen in your church, or is it frowned upon?

If you had to give a VERY rough figure of the percentage of Pente / Charis churches that have members taking part in disorderly movements, what would it be? Very roughly.

There's no need to harp on the gifts...and contrary to what many may think, Pentecostals don't spend all of their time learning, teaching, or manifesting the gifts...most of us simply believe that they are available today, and the Spirit gives certain gifts to certain people for His glory...not ours.

Well, I made this thread to discuss these things so could you humor me on a coupla points? Lets talk about the 'gift of Prophecy' for example. Are there members in your church who are revealing future events? Is that what you consider prophecy? Do you find that acceptable? In unbiblical Pente churches how are they manifesting this gift? Tell us how it is abused and how things differ in your church.

At most of the P/C churches I've visited, ministered at or been a member of, the sermons are pretty much what you would hear in any other evangelical church...salvation, sanctification, the person of Christ, etc...though I have been to some that constantly preach on money and blessings...and of course the blessing come from giving them money...this is prosperity doctrine, and I'm completely opposed to that...as are the majority of Classical Pentecostals and Charismatics.

So what percentage of the Pente / Charis movement do you think are being led astray with the prosperity Gospel? Is it a big problem? Can you name any particular pastors in the movement who are guilty of this wolf like behaviour?

Healing is one of the gifts...at my church we have prayer time at the end of every service...the pastor and elders are at the altar to pray with anyone who needs it...this could be for healing, salvation, prayer for a loved one, or whatever...we believe God can and does heal people, but it's His will who is healed and who is not...the man at the pool of Bethesda in John's Gospel is a good example of this...there are some, typically Word of Faith, who believe that we can claim our healing, and God will do it...then when it doesn't happen they're quick to say that it was because the person's faith wasn't strong enough...this is in error, IMO.

So, regarding healings. People with this 'gift' in your church never claim that they can heal someone, or say that, when they fail to heal someone, its because the sick person didn't have enough faith? So what happens when someone who was prayed over by a member with the 'gift' DOESNT get well? What happens then? Who is to blame?

I guess I would endorse Mark Driscoll...he's a bit different...calls himself a continuist as opposed to a cessationist...there may be others I would endorse, but I don't really keep up with who's hot and who's not.

I'll have a look at Driscoll and get back to you. Thank you.

I'm not a fan of anyone you can watch on TBN...the only one that really sticks out, though, is Rod Parsley...I happened to catch his show one day and he was teaching people how to speak in tongues...tongues is not something that can be learned, it's a gift given to us by the Holy Spirit...after watching that program I lost any respect I could have for Mr. Parsley's teaching.

Ok. I think I know what kind of pastors you are talking about. So heres the question again. Are these guys who appear on TBN and pastors who mimick that style...are they very popular in the Pente / Charis world today? Or are they a fringe group? Give me a rough percentage of the 750 million Pente's who are caught up in following these false teachers please.

First of all, 750 million is a combined estimate of Pentecostals and Charismatics...Pentecostals are those who have their own denominations...Assemblies of God, Church of God, IPHC, Foursquare, etc...Some groups that prefer to be called Charismatic have their own denominations...Vineyard, Calvary Chapel, Sovereign Grace, perhaps a few others...but you can also find Charismatic Catholics, Methodists, Presbyterians, Anglicans, etc...Word of Faith also gets lumped into this...

So, to give you an exact percentage would be hard. I don't know the number that fall into the WoF category as they're lumped together with the Charismatics.

But could you try to give me very rough percentages Drew on the questions I've asked? Thanks friend.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

So then why dont you help me to understand? Don't just say "we're not all the same" ....tell me WHY your not the same. Tell me the difference. You say there are 750 million Pentacostals and crow about them like they are the CORRECT MAJORITY. And then you chastise ME for grouping them all together!?

Why dont you tell me who are the wolves in the movement and how their 'spiritual gift' practices differ from your own? What seperates the unbiblical pente churches from the biblical ones. Gimme a list.

Why are you so scared to name the pastors who you endorse?

Whats with all the evasiveness?

Can you please invite some of your friends on the Pente / Charis forums to come and take part in this thread please. I don't see much involvement from them.

Aye but then comes to remembrance the scripture "who are you to judge another man's servant? By God he stands or falls"

Really, honestly, my issue with pentecostal doctrines has nothing to do with pentecostals, but i do have issues with some of the type of angels that frequent their meetings .

doesn't mean i know better than them . just means they rub me the wrong way .

 

[Dr.Strangelove]

Aye but then comes to remembrance the scripture "who are you to judge another man's servant? By God he stands or falls"

No ones judging MC. We're looking honestly at certain practices that are going on in the Pente / Charis churches and trying to discern whether they are Biblically acceptable or not.

If we find they are not acceptable then this thread can help people who are involved in it, to GET OUT. Thats all. No judgement coming from anyone. Theres hope for all who are not deliberatley and KNOWINGLY practicing unbiblical activities.

Of course for those who are fully aware of ascribing to the Holy Spirit, completely ungodly and unbiblical manifestations, God WILL be the judge and they may be past forgiveness.

Let's be grown ups ok? We're allowed to look at these things. Theres no condemnations, I just want the truth. We know that MILLIONS are being deceived in this movement, I think we can all agree on that...so lets get to the bottom of it. I just wish we had more sensible Pentacostals with the inside view like Big Drew to discuss things with.

Doc.

 

[Ih8s8n]

Dr.Strangelove: I'll be extremely busy for the next two days, so I really cannot get into any drawn out discussions at this time. For now, I'll simply say this:

I've been a Christian for a little over 22 years. For probably about the first 12 years or so of my Christian walk, I did travel rather extensively within so-called "Pentecostal circles". During that timeframe, I cannot honestly say that I encountered even one pastor whom I deemed/discerned to even be a Christian. A pretty serious claim, but that is my personal determination after having seriously/prayerfully examined the evidence that was set before me. From what I've experienced, the main problem within the "Pentecostal circles" that I travelled in was/is PRIDE. In other words, I saw "minister" after "minister" after "minister" after "minister" who certainly seemed more interested in making a name for themselves than bringing honor to the name of Jesus. Also, unlike some (based upon comments that I've read throughout this forum), I do not believe that these crazy manifestations that are purported to be of the Holy Spirit (I see NOTHING HOLY in them at all) are simply "works of the flesh". No, I have every reason to believe that many/most/possibly all of them are demonic in nature.

"For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguilded Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. For if he that cometh preacheth ANOTHER JESUS, whom we have not preached, OR IF YE RECEIVE ANOTHER SPIRIT, which ye have not received, OR ANOTHER GOSPEL, which ye have not accepted, ye might bear with him." (II Corinthians 11:2-4)

Although, in context, the "another Jesus" and "other gospel" of which Paul specifically spoke was in relation to the Judaizers of his day, I've personally seen and heard many "another Jesus'" foisted upon undiscerning (not always...sometimes the people are simply getting what they want) people throughout the years. These "another Jesus'" are part of "another gospel" AND they have "ANOTHER SPIRIT" attached to them. In other words, they are DEMONIC in nature, as the serpent's (Satan's) beguiling practices did not cease in the garden of Eden.

"Slain in the Spirit"? "Holy Ghost laughter"? "Behaving like animals"? I've withstood it all for years...many times in person (when I travelled in those circles in an attempt to help to fix the problem) and many times via writing. As messed up and un-Biblical as many of these things/people are, I would still like to mention the two following things:

1. In my extensive travels, I also encountered quite a few genuine, sincere, Spirit-filled, Spirit-led Christians who were totally grieved with what was transpiring within their midsts. Sad to say (Been there, done that, myself), such objectors were squelched by the so-called "ministers" and usually, if not always, just left their respective churches. In other words, all of the corruption aside, there are still some genuine examples of those who have experienced what the scriptures genuinely teach along these lines and the proverbial baby is not to be thrown out with the bathwater (even if the bathwater is over just about everyone's head).

2. And this really should be number 1. Even if NO ONE followed the true Biblical teachings in these regards, the true Biblical teachings are still there. In other words, in your zeal to expose what is false, be careful not to trample upon what is true.

Can I recommend any leaders of this "movement" to you? No, I cannot. Can I recommend the Biblical Pentecost to you? Yes, I can.

That's all that I have time for right now.

Take care.

P.S. Of course, I am NOT omniscient. By that, I mean to say that although I have travelled pretty extensively in these "circles" in the past, I have obviously not been to every church/convention in the world. Not even close. I'm just giving you testimony from my own experiences...experiences that I've judged according to God's Word.

 

[Dr.Strangelove]

I'll have a look at Driscoll and get back to you. Thank you.

That guy seems to be a Calvinist. Arn't there any pastors in the Pentecostal / Charismatic denominations that you would endorse? Any leaders of note at all?

 

[JimfromOhio]

That guy seems to be a Calvinist. Arn't there any pastors in the Pentecostal / Charismatic denominations that you would endorse? Any leaders of note at all?

A.W. Tozer

 

[Dr.Strangelove]

Wow....uhm....thanks for that post Ih. Very honest of you.

Can we say then there is a HUGE problem in the Pente movement. Like, a high percentage are being led away from solid doctrine.

I'm gonna try not to throw the baby out with the bathwater. I just need to get to the bottom of this issue.

How do the apostate Pente / Charis church operations of the 'spiritual gifts' DIFFER from what all you guys keep supporting in all the other threads where we have been talking about the 'gifts'?