How Damaging is the Pentacostal / Charismatic Movement?

[VolRaider]

I don't understand all the shakin and quakin, but I noticed some deride this type of Christianity as pure entertainment. Many liturgical Christians tend to bash praise worship as simply entertainment. However, many liturgical Christians also are entertained by the high-church backdrop as well as hymns that would probably be looked down on by at least some of the disciples.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Ok well, can I have the name of a respectable pastor who has Biblical doctrines AND who calls himself either Pentacostal or Charismatic?

Are there any Pentacostals or Charismatics hanging out on the GT forum?

Hellooooooooooooo??




Doesn't hurt to shine alight on false teachers MC. We're certainly called to do so in scripture.

7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.​

Beware, means to be AWARE. And we can certainly help our brethren to be aware too! It's late in the day guys. We need to get everything out in the open and expose those who bear bad fruit.​

I remember the next part says "by their fruit ye shall know them"

We don't need to name them and give them more publicity .

just collect the wrong teachings and provide correctives and explain the harmfulness of said teachings and the benefit of the corrective .

I am wOF and I agree that our beliefs are different than some, especially regarding faith.

What faith is, how it works and how to do it on purpose.

Is it dangerous to those who do not agree?

The answer is YES!

Those who do not understand faith are already in danger because the just(Christians) are told over and over to live by faith.

Hab 2:4

4 Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith .
KJV

Rom 1:17

17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith : as it is written, The just shall live by faith .
KJV

Gal 3:11

11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith .
KJV

Heb 10:38

38 Now the just shall live by faith : but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
KJV

I will be obedient and live by faith as well as I can and that is fun.

Hey I appreciate you standing up and such with all the bad things being said against your tradition . kudos .

but what you have explained is a core component grace theology, adopted by many christians across many traditions, not exclusive to WoF

 

[sunlover1]

Shock horror...lots of feisty, inquisitive Christians asking awkward but honest questions about the faith? . Not your kinda place eh?

Inquisitive Christians asking honest questions is exactly my kind of place.
You're not doing that.

This isn't about doctrine.

 

[WileyCoyote]

John MacArther is a false teacher I believe every Christian should avoid. Did you know this guy actually believes the heretical Cessationist theology?

 

[Big Drew]

Ok. Agreed. It's unbiblical. Does this kind of thing happen in many Pente / Charis churches. If you had to give a VERY rough estimate. What would it be?

I really cannot give an estimate...every church is different...some are more charismatic than others...I prefer the more conservative churches.

I'm gonna presume, from our previous talks, that by tongues you mean gibberish. I know that word may be taken the wrong way by some. Sorry but theres no other word I can think of to use. Now, 1 or 2 people doing this in church is ok you say? Ok so can you watch this video and tell me if this is acceptable. If not, why? How do things work in your own church regarding tongues? How do your practices of tongues differ from the people in the video?:

When I say one or two praying in tongues doesn't bother me I mean if someone is at the altar praying, and I happen to hear them it doesn't bother me...I sit on the first row, near the altar, so I can occasionally hear what someone is saying when they're praying...someone a few rows back wouldn't even be able to hear anything...if someone is being loud and obnoxious with it, then yeah, I would have a problem with that.

As far as the video goes, I see that as mockery and would be very uncomfortable in a service where this type of behavior was going on. Personally, I don't speak in tongues in public...that's something that happens in my personal prayer and devotion time...alone in my house...just me and God.

Can you show me please where raising hands, clapping, dancing is considered to be part of a Christians worship? I'm not saying your wrong but I havn't spotted those things in scripture personally.

Here's one on lifting hands..

Psa 141:2 Let my prayer be counted as incense before you, and the lifting up of my hands as the evening sacrifice!

There are several other verses that show this is an acceptable form of worship.

Clapping...

Psa 47:1 To the choirmaster. A Psalm of the Sons of Korah. Clap your hands, all peoples! Shout to God with loud songs of joy!

Dancing...

Psa 149:3 Let them praise his name with dancing, making melody to him with tambourine and lyre!

Now I know all of these are OT verses, but I think that's irrelevant in this case...I don't see how the way folks praise God has changed from the Old to the New Covenant.

Where do you draw the line? Running around church? Is that acceptable? Does it happen in your church, or is it frowned upon?

When I say dancing, I'm thinking of swaying back and forth to the music...nothing disorderly or causing a scene. You wouldn't see someone running around in my church...as I've said, we're fairly conservative as far as Pentecostal churches go.

If you had to give a VERY rough figure of the percentage of Pente / Charis churches that have members taking part in disorderly movements, what would it be? Very roughly.

Again, I can't give a percentage I can only speak on what I know.

Well, I made this thread to discuss these things so could you humor me on a coupla points? Lets talk about the 'gift of Prophecy' for example. Are there members in your church who are revealing future events? Is that what you consider prophecy? Do you find that acceptable? In unbiblical Pente churches how are they manifesting this gift? Tell us how it is abused and how things differ in your church.

I'm not aware of anyone in my current church that operates in the prophetic gift...I have been given words of prophecy in the past though...we believe that prophecy is forthtelling as well as foretelling. Prophecy will never contradict scripture, and it must always have confirmation...

An example, I felt in my spirit that God was calling me into a music ministry several years ago...this happened after a Sunday morning service...I had not spoken to anyone about this, and had been in prayer about it all afternoon...that evening at service a lady in the church asked to pray with me, and as we were praying she said, "The Lord wants you to sing His praises for the glory of the Kingdom." That, along with scripture, was my confirmation that this is what God wanted me to do.

As an aside, I am skeptical of anyone who claims to be a prophet, and arrogantly displays it...I've seen a few folks like this, and I take what they say with a grain of salt.

So what percentage of the Pente / Charis movement do you think are being led astray with the prosperity Gospel? Is it a big problem? Can you name any particular pastors in the movement who are guilty of this wolf like behaviour?

I know the prosperity doctrine is big in the WoF churches...but, again, I don't know the numbers of folks that are WoF.

So, regarding healings. People with this 'gift' in your church never claim that they can heal someone, or say that, when they fail to heal someone, its because the sick person didn't have enough faith? So what happens when someone who was prayed over by a member with the 'gift' DOESNT get well? What happens then? Who is to blame?

As I said...In my church we pray for someone's healing...some get healed, others don't...we see it as the Lord's will whether someone is healed or not.

I mentioned the man at the pool of Bethesda...and the reason I did was to show that the Lord will heal whom He chooses...remember in that story there were many at pool that day waiting to be healed, but Jesus only healed the one man. So at my church we don't blame anyone when someone isn't healed.

Ok. I think I know what kind of pastors you are talking about. So heres the question again. Are these guys who appear on TBN and pastors who mimick that style...are they very popular in the Pente / Charis world today? Or are they a fringe group? Give me a rough percentage of the 750 million Pente's who are caught up in following these false teachers please.

These are Word of Faith preachers...and Word of Faith is completely different than Classical Pentecostalism or the Charismatic Movement...while it may trace its roots back to Pentecostalism, I can definitely say that most classical Pentecostals see it as heretical...

But could you try to give me very rough percentages Drew on the questions I've asked? Thanks friend.

To answer that I have to know how many are WoF. Not saying that some of these things don't happen outside of WoF...but those outside of that movement would be very small.

 

[Optimax]

I remember the next part says "by their fruit ye shall know them"

We don't need to name them and give them more publicity .

just collect the wrong teachings and provide correctives and explain the harmfulness of said teachings and the benefit of the corrective .



Hey I appreciate you standing up and such with all the bad things being said against your tradition . kudos .

but what you have explained is a core component grace theology, adopted by many christians across many traditions, not exclusive to WoF

I agree, after all God's Grace includes everything we are provided by God and it is accessed by faith.

Rom 5:1-2
5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
KJV


God's Grace is in abundance all around us, as we are standing in it.
However it is accessed by faith.

Can't get God's Graces in your life? Maybe learn to access Grace by faith.

Thats how God said to do it.

 

[Merlin]

.and I can't think of any Pentecostals I know that believe in OSAS.

hi
now you do

 

[sunlover1]

Here you say you don't know them

I don't.. I don't know any pente preachers at all. I rarely watch television.

And here you say you know them well. So whats it to be Sunlover? Do you know them or not?

I know "wolves" .

I'm not asking for gossip. Thats the least of my concerns. Gossip is IDLE chatter about people personal lives that have no real importance. Please don't start with all the 'oh your not allowed to talk about people coz its not nice!' stuff.

It's not, I have no problem with discussiong pentacostalISM.. I just see no fruit
in "What guy is really baaaaad" type of questions.
That's all.

We're allowed to discern false prophets and practices.

be fools otherwise

Would you warn your brethren if they were attending a congregation pastored by a WOLF? Or would that be gossip?

What do you think?

Why havn't you studies their doctrines. Are you not interested in being aware of apostacy?

Where does Scripture tell me to study false doctrines?

I'm afraid doctrine IS key.

1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ,
hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath
both the Father and the Son.
1:10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him
not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
1:11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.​

Do you think many churches in the Pente / Charis movement are misusing 'tongues'? Give us a rough estimate please.

Can't really say. I have only begun attending
a church for the past three years and it's been one church only.
went to a couple of churches in the 10 years or so before that
dunno if they spoke in tongues or not.

How do you know if they are correct even with an interpreter? Why does having an interpreter legitamize talking gibberish? How do you know if the interpretation is of God?

Just going on what the bible says Doc.

Have you ever had 2 interpreters write down what one 'tonguer' has spoken and then compared the two accounts?

I have never seen anyone
even give a message OR an interpretation.

Definatley. Gossip is wrong and also a complete waste of time. Gossip is NOT what we are doing here. You are getting very defensive already.

Defensive of what?

Can you cite scripture where God causes someone to fall over? As in, they are thrown to the floor?

Yes to the first and no to the second.

Can you give me a rough percentage of Pentacostal / Charis churches where there is falling down happening in their congregation. Just an estimate. Thanks. Majority? Minority? Half 'n half?

Don't know.

I don't have a denomination. I've never set foot in a church in all my life and never had a non-RC church even CLOSE to me in my 2 years of being a Christian.

Why? What do you think would go on at a church that I would attend?

What do you think "forsake not the assembling of yourselves" means?

 

[sunlover1]

hi
now you do

Oops. make that two of us lol
(although i don't know if i qualify as pentecostal)

 

[Dr.Strangelove]

I remember the next part says "by their fruit ye shall know them"

We don't need to name them and give them more publicity .

just collect the wrong teachings and provide correctives and explain the harmfulness of said teachings and the benefit of the corrective.

I dunno what the aversion is to naming and shaming false teachers.

Surely it helps people to stay away?

 

[Harry3142]

We had a problem with the charismatic movement in the Episcopal Church about 30 to 35 years ago. But the problem didn't lie in the belief that some had of being able to speak in tongues. It resided in the judgementalism exhibited by them to those who didn't accept the movement. According to them, unless you had a supernatural gift, such as speaking in tongues, you weren't really saved.

 

[Tangible]

We had a problem with the charismatic movement in the Episcopal Church about 30 to 35 years ago. But the problem didn't lie in the belief that some had of being able to speak in tongues. It resided in the judgementalism exhibited by them to those who didn't accept the movement. According to them, unless you had a supernatural gift, such as speaking in tongues, you weren't really saved.

aka Pietism.

 

[sunlover1]

I don't understand all the shakin and quakin,

Dunno that I would be comfortable with that sort of thing at all.
I haven't witnessed it.

I remember the next part says "by their fruit ye shall know them"

We don't need to name them and give them more publicity .

Not only that but we let God deal with His kids.
I remember when Jim and Tammy were all over the news.
Not that they didnt have it coming in the secular world but
we are called to restore a brother iirc.

John MacArther is a false teacher I believe every Christian should avoid. Did you know this guy actually believes the heretical Cessationist theology?

I used to love to listen to that guy on the radio until I heard him mocking tongues
talkers.. Mocking is always so unattractive and telling
I never thought of cessationism as heretic.

 

[Dr.Strangelove]

Inquisitive Christians asking honest questions is exactly my kind of place.
You're not doing that.

This isn't about doctrine.

What is this about then Sun?

I suppose yer gonna accuse me of trolling again? Huh? You think I'm doing this out of some sort of sick exercise in personal entertainment?

I see millions of christians trapped in Babylon. I want them to be aware of whats happening to them and come out. Thats it. Get over it already.

And yes....it seems your involved in the some of the questionable practices I want to investigate and expose. I'd appreciate honest dialogue during your participation rather than railing people who wanna ask questions about this stuff.

 

[sunlover1]

aka Pietism.

aka lacking sense

 

[Tangible]

I never thought of cessationism as heretic.

Probably because it isn't heretical.

 

[Ih8s8n]

How do the apostate Pente / Charis church operations of the 'spiritual gifts' DIFFER from what all you guys keep supporting in all the other threads where we have been talking about the 'gifts'?

Dr.Strangelove: You've already mentioned some of the differences yourself. For example, many of these so-called "manifestations of the Spirit" aren't even found in scripture, such as "being slain in the Spirit", "Holy laughter", "barking or behaving like animals", etc., etc. Anyhow, I want to remind you of something that I briefly mentioned in the other thread from which this one sprang forth. "Gifts of the Spirit" and "fruits of the Spirit" are two separate things or, as I said in the other thread, "gifts" are not necessarily a sign of maturity. Consider the following if you will (I don't have enough time to cite the actual verses...I'm on my way out):

King Saul prophesied and he was wicked before the Lord...

Judas Iscariot apparently healed the sick, cast out devils and might have even raised the dead and Jesus said that it was better for him if he had never been born...

Caiaphas the high priest prophesied (and his prophecy came true) and he was a wicked man who oppoosed Christ...

In other words, there are even examples where wicked men did things by the Spirit of God, so we apparently can't just judge whether or not a "gift" is true by examining the vessel through whom it came forth. Just another angle for you to hopefully ponder in your pursuit for truth.

Gotta run...

 

[Big Drew]

We had a problem with the charismatic movement in the Episcopal Church about 30 to 35 years ago. But the problem didn't lie in the belief that some had of being able to speak in tongues. It resided in the judgementalism exhibited by them to those who didn't accept the movement. According to them, unless you had a supernatural gift, such as speaking in tongues, you weren't really saved.

I think you run into that anywhere though. I know Catholics that believe noncatholics aren't real believers...Baptists that say anyone not of like minded faith is damned...etc...nothing new under the sun.

 

[sunlover1]

Dr.Strangelove: You've already mentioned some of the differences yourself. For example, many of these so-called "manifestations of the Spirit" aren't even found in scripture, such as "being slain in the Spirit", "Holy laughter", "barking or behaving like animals", etc., etc. Anyhow, I want to remind you of something that I briefly mentioned in the other thread from which this one sprang forth. "Gifts of the Spirit" and "fruits of the Spirit" are two separate things or, as I said in the other thread, "gifts" are not necessarily a sign of maturity. Consider the following if you will (I don't have enough time to cite the actual verses...I'm on my way out):

King Saul prophesied and he was wicked before the Lord...

Judas Iscariot apparently healed the sick, cast out devils and might have even raised the dead and Jesus said that it was better for him if he had never been born...

Caiaphas the high priest prophesied (and his prophecy came true) and he was a wicked man who oppoosed Christ...

In other words, there are even examples where wicked men did things by the Spirit of God, so we apparently can't just judge whether or not a "gift" is true by examining the vessel through whom it came forth. Just another angle for you to hopefully ponder in your pursuit for truth.

Gotta run...

And another reason we should be very careful about pointing fingers.

 

[Ih8s8n]

Since I'm still waiting for my wife and children to get ready...

And another reason we should be very careful about pointing fingers.

sunlover1: I'm trying to be as fair and even-handed in this as I possibly can. At the same time, however, I totally disagree with you where the importance of doctrine is concerned. Anyhow, I think that they're finally ready. Later...