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A conversation about unity.

The Liturgist

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Parking of the eucharist/communion is an outward sign of being properly prepared as well as unity with the church that you are taking it at. If you are not Catholic then you are not prepared or in unity with the church, why would you want to pretend otherwise? I am in an impaired state with the RCC and can't take communion either. The Eucharist matters to the Catholic Church, it isn't just a symbol and it isn't just sharing a meal - it is the literal body and blood of Christ, it isn't just a sign or symbol. If one attends a denomination where it is just a symbol or sign then fine, we can all partake as that is just a symbolic gesture.

That said I don’t think Christians who believe in the real presence should partake of the Eucharist in churches that deny it - the closest I would be prepared to get is in the case of churches like the Anglicans that lean towards a believe in the Real Presence without in most cases dogmatizing it.

Of course some Anglicans do dogmatize the Real Presence, for example Continuing Anglo Catholics and High Church Anglicans like the Anglican Province of Christ The King Sovereign Priest in the Western US. Those provinces are basically Old Catholics but with an Anglican liturgical patrimony. For this reason some of them have close relations with some conservative Lutheran denominations.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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That's right, unity takes more than just saying "I believe in Jesus, I demand that you accept me and give me communion even though I utterly reject the Holy Eucharist as the real body and blood of Jesus Christ. And I demand membership even though I completely reject your bishops and priests and confession and all those terrible "Popery" things". yep, that is not acceptable as unity to Catholics, I cannot see why anybody would call that unity.

You're not actually listening closely to anything I say and then you're feeding your misinterpretation into your report about what it is you "THINK" I've said. Just know that I don't accept your terminology as an accurate description of my position on Christian Theology.

Anyway, it's your thread. Enjoy it, bro!
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Don’t forget the Confessional Lutherans, the Assyrian Church of the East and the Ancient Church of the East. The latter two will permit NIcene Christians to receive the Eucharist, but only if they believe in the real presence, which I think is as open as any of the traditional liturgical churches that believes in the real presence can safely be.

The bitter irony in all of this is that the aforementioned churches with the possible exception of the Confessional Lutherans are among the least likely to bother you over any issue of natural science of evolution; indeed the idea of the BIg Bang as an explanation of Hubble’s discovery of the increasing distance between galaxies was articulated by a Roman Catholic priest who engaged in astronomy (and not even at the Vatican Observatory, if memory serves, although that is a very good scientific institute).

The doctrine you’re being asked to accept by the way as a precondition to receiving our Eucharist - not even to attending our services, mind you, or receiving a blessing, or in the case of the Orthodox, antidoron (blessed bread) but merely receiving the Eucharist, is that you believe what Christ our True God said about it, that it is His Body, broken for us and for many for the remission of sins, and His blood of the new covenant, and that the Eucharist is an anamnesis of our Lord, in which we participate in the Last Supper - there is indeed only one Eucharist, and one Baptism, and that is what we participate in.

Also in the case of the Orthodox an Orthodox Christian cannot be an Iconoclast, a Nestorian, a Eutychian, a Monothelite, or otherwise an adherent of a doctrine contrary to the faith of the ecumenical councils (the Oriental Orthodox did not participate in the fifth, sixth and seventh council and disagreed with the specific wording adopted at the fourth, but did agree with the fourth in terms of having anathematized Eutyches, and with the Sixth and Seventh also anathematized monothelitism and iconclasm despite not participating in the councils; indeed unlike the Eastern Orthodox the Oriental Orthodox never had a Patriarchate come under the control of Iconoclasts).

Even with regards to the Eucharist, what matters to the Eastern churches, with our emphasis on apophatic theology (using the via negativa rather than affirmative statements of doctrine) is that people do not believe a theology that denies the real physical presence of Christ; as far as how that presence occurs, we have no official explanation, other than it is a sacred mystery, although on occasion some of our saints have used the word Transubstantiation, but primarily to differentiate our position from that of Calvinists who admit only a spiritual presence, or Zwinglians who reduce the Eucharist to a sign or symbol, or Memorialists who deny even that, or Receptionists.

And there are scriptural reasons for not believing in Zwinglianism, Memorialism or Receptionism, for our Lord did not say “This is a symbol of my body” or “This is not really my body in any meaningful way” or “This will not become my body until you partake of it” but rather “This is my body” and “This is my blood.” Which is why Martin Luther famously carved HOC EST CORPVS MEVM into the table at the Marburg Colloquy.

You're missing my point too, mainly because you think my point is the same as any other person's here. You probably also think that I think I'm Protestant. I never said I was or that I think any Protestant denomination is the "right way." The truth is, I'm a philosopher and I think that when Critical and Hermeneutical scrutiny are applied, inconsistencies and conflated claims can be found in every denomination out there.

Anyway, don't worry-------I shan't be showing up at your church demanding participation in the Eucharist. (As if I would have simply shown up....)

Moreover, I don't care what Martin Luther said other than as a part of a diachronic study. And your constant text walls aren't going to educate me any more than the 500 volumes of theology and history do that I already have.
 
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ARBITER01

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Everything that needed to be said has been already said. In short, it's a validation of the Reformation, and further evidence that we, as Protestants, need to keep believing GOD's words, not man's.

To be honest, I'm not sure why such a thread was made. The very people crying about unity don't actually want it without it being on their terms. It's a joke.
 
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Carl Emerson

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It has been a cause for some to go into schism for many many centuries. Why would it be otherwise now?

So much for the hope of unity...

When two or three are gathered in My Name, He is there.
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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That's funny, because if I were to invite you to one of the Restorationist churches I used to attend, they'd have zero problem with you joining in Communion as long as you've already been baptized "somewhere" in a Trinitarian church.

Nevertheless, I appreciate the Pascalian style invitation.
Because they have no Eucharist, no real presence, that is why they could care less who attends.
 

2PhiloVoid

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Because they have no Eucharist, no real presence, that is why they could care less who attends.

And what are you saying by that comment? That they also don't have the Holy Spirit among them?
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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Don’t forget the Confessional Lutherans, the Assyrian Church of the East and the Ancient Church of the East. The latter two will permit NIcene Christians to receive the Eucharist, but only if they believe in the real presence, which I think is as open as any of the traditional liturgical churches that believes in the real presence can safely be.

The bitter irony in all of this is that the aforementioned churches with the possible exception of the Confessional Lutherans are among the least likely to bother you over any issue of natural science of evolution; indeed the idea of the BIg Bang as an explanation of Hubble’s discovery of the increasing distance between galaxies was articulated by a Roman Catholic priest who engaged in astronomy (and not even at the Vatican Observatory, if memory serves, although that is a very good scientific institute).

The doctrine you’re being asked to accept by the way as a precondition to receiving our Eucharist - not even to attending our services, mind you, or receiving a blessing, or in the case of the Orthodox, antidoron (blessed bread) but merely receiving the Eucharist, is that you believe what Christ our True God said about it, that it is His Body, broken for us and for many for the remission of sins, and His blood of the new covenant, and that the Eucharist is an anamnesis of our Lord, in which we participate in the Last Supper - there is indeed only one Eucharist, and one Baptism, and that is what we participate in.

Also in the case of the Orthodox an Orthodox Christian cannot be an Iconoclast, a Nestorian, a Eutychian, a Monothelite, or otherwise an adherent of a doctrine contrary to the faith of the ecumenical councils (the Oriental Orthodox did not participate in the fifth, sixth and seventh council and disagreed with the specific wording adopted at the fourth, but did agree with the fourth in terms of having anathematized Eutyches, and with the Sixth and Seventh also anathematized monothelitism and iconclasm despite not participating in the councils; indeed unlike the Eastern Orthodox the Oriental Orthodox never had a Patriarchate come under the control of Iconoclasts).

Even with regards to the Eucharist, what matters to the Eastern churches, with our emphasis on apophatic theology (using the via negativa rather than affirmative statements of doctrine) is that people do not believe a theology that denies the real physical presence of Christ; as far as how that presence occurs, we have no official explanation, other than it is a sacred mystery, although on occasion some of our saints have used the word Transubstantiation, but primarily to differentiate our position from that of Calvinists who admit only a spiritual presence, or Zwinglians who reduce the Eucharist to a sign or symbol, or Memorialists who deny even that, or Receptionists.

And there are scriptural reasons for not believing in Zwinglianism, Memorialism or Receptionism, for our Lord did not say “This is a symbol of my body” or “This is not really my body in any meaningful way” or “This will not become my body until you partake of it” but rather “This is my body” and “This is my blood.” Which is why Martin Luther famously carved HOC EST CORPVS MEVM into the table at the Marburg Colloquy.
Sidebar... LCMS is more stuck on "natural Science than LCC; but neither do we or they see this as a stumbling block to fellowship, since, as you know, we are in full fellowship with each other. We view this as Adiaphora.
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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And what are you saying by that comment? That they also don't have the Holy Spirit among them?
Please, don't put words in my mouth.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Please, don't put words in my mouth.

I didn't put words in your mouth. I simply asked two qualified questions as any person can do.

All you'd have to say is, "no, I do think they have the Holy Spirit too," and keep it copacetic and affirmed with "brotherly fellowship."
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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You're not actually listening closely to anything I say and then you're feeding your misinterpretation into your report about what it is you "THINK" I've said. Just know that I don't accept your terminology as an accurate description of my position on Christian Theology.

Anyway, it's your thread. Enjoy it, bro!
You will need to tell me what you allege is misrepresenting something you've said, as far as I know I didn't represent anything in my post as a quote from you or as a summary of your stated positions.
 
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