~That which is perfect~

[Mathetes the kerux]

and Paul was NEVER talking about these "so-called gifts" the modern charismatics claim to possess.

Bare assertion fallacy . . . the text of 1 cor 12-14 supports supernatural manifestations as pretty regular and pneumatic.

Support your self

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

again....man's interpretation to suit his peculiar religion.

who says they were speaking JUDEAN????
they were surprised to hear them speak OTHER LANGUAGES.

but if you like that stuff you've involved in, have at it.

again....man's interpretation to suit his peculiar religion.

Oh that is rich. Lack of substance . . . plz post something with some substance.

who says they were speaking JUDEAN????
they were surprised to hear them speak OTHER LANGUAGES.

Do you read greek?

It is even in english. JUDEANS are part of those who HEAR . ..

Acts 2:8-11
And how is it that we each hear them in our own language to which we were born? 9 "Parthians and Medes and Elamites, and residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, 10 Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the districts of Libya around Cyrene, and visitors from Rome, both Jews and proselytes, 11 Cretans and Arabs--we hear them in our own tongues speaking of the mighty deeds of God."
NASU

making the INESCAPABLE observatory quesiton . . .

WHY ARE JUDEANS SURPRISED TO HEAR OTHER JUDEANS SPEAKING IN JUDEAN?

The PARAMOUNT leixcal MONSTER TDNT (Theological Dictionary of the New Testament) points this out RATHER PLAINLY . . . that ioudian (judea) is ORIGINAL TO THE TEXT and makes foreign languages IMPOSSIBLE.

Not to mention the use of plural and sing. pronouns in the Greek.

You have the mede and the persian HEARIN THE SAME GROUP OF PEOPLE AT THE SAME TIME SPEAKING IN TWO DIFFERENT LANGUAGES . . . AS A GROUP

I speak to a russian and an african and they both hear me, AT THE SAME TIME, speaking in their own native dialects. So unless you want to make a case for the speaker speaking two diff languages AT THE SAME EXACT TIME (which w/o two mouths is quite impossible) then you have a case of a MIRACLE OF TRANSLATION more then a miracle of SPEAKING.

Which lines quite well with Paul's teaching in 1 Cor 14. No one understands unless the Spirit imparts understanding. PERIOD.
Notice that the "foreign language" concept cant be imported into acts 10 or 19? Yet Peter says in 11 that what happened in 10 IS THE SAME THING THAT HAPPENED IN 2???

 

[ARBITER01]

I speak to a russian and an african and they both hear me, AT THE SAME TIME, speaking in their own native dialects. So unless you want to make a case for the speaker speaking two diff languages AT THE SAME EXACT TIME (which w/o two mouths is quite impossible) then you have a case of a MIRACLE OF TRANSLATION more then a miracle of SPEAKING.

That's a very good observation. and it agrees with why Peter referred to the event as prophecy, interpretation of the tongues had to be happening, or the outright operation of the gift of prophecy.

 

[Frogster]

if you believe the activity is Biblical, if you stand behind those who taught you this, why can't you just name the denomination or church please?

i don't need to show you a demarcation line when The Miracle of unlearned people no longer needing a miraculous ability to speak the wonderful works of God in a previously unlearned language, because you are talking about Glossolalia and i am talking about languages of the world.

your wrong, I posted the greek, same as pent, and acts 19, where they spoke in tongues.

Show me the demarcation line, of when they ceased? gimmie scripture already...

 

[Frogster]

Bare assertion fallacy . . . the text of 1 cor 12-14 supports supernatural manifestations as pretty regular and pneumatic.

Support your self

The Matster is here!

I asked them several times, to give a scriptural line of demarcation, to show where the manifestations of them stopped, but so far just alot of human wisdom.

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

That's a very good observation. and it agrees with why Peter referred to the event as prophecy, interpretation of the tongues had to be happening, or the outright operation of the gift of prophecy.

True, which is how it can be a fulfillment of Joel

Further, I would call all these gifts "prophetic" in the sense that they are manifestations of the partial to which the fulfillment will be when Jesus comes. The gifts are MEANT to anticipate the return of Christ. In this sense, they are all "prophetic."

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

The Matster is here!

I asked them several times, to give a scriptural line of demarcation, to show where the manifestations of them stopped, but so far just alot of human wisdom.

Hey frogs! hope ur doing well!

We wil see how much substance is here . . .

 

[Frogster]

and Paul was NEVER talking about these "so-called gifts" the modern charismatics claim to possess.

Acts 2;4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance.


Acts 19:6 And when Paul had laid his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking in tongues and prophesying.


Same in the Greek. Acts 19 was well over 20 years after Pent. Don't get all caught up with the gift word, they are also called manifestations of the Spirit. has the Spirit ceased?


tongues
New Testament Greek Definition:
1100 glossa {gloce-sah'}
of uncertain affinity; TDNT - 1:719,123; n f
AV - tongue 50; 50
1) the tongue, a member of the body, an organ of speech
2) a tongue
1a) the language or dialect used by a particular people distinct
from that of other nations

 

[Frogster]

Is this the kind of lunacy that you guys are talking about when you mention 'tongues'?

These guys can barely keep a straight face while they're churning this stuff out. It's a comedy act. And this stuff passes for Holy? And people feel they need to imitate it? God help us.

I did not watch the video, because you NEED A NEW MO ALREADY.

All you do, is point out, what most know, there are jerks, and fakes etc..

But you gotta gimmie scripture, to show where it ended, give me the scriptural line of demarcation, and I will buy you a steak dinner!

 

[Frogster]

Hey frogs! hope ur doing well!

We wil see how much substance is here . . .

not a drop of substance. One just tries to show jerks out there, and ask why aren't all healed, the other one is light on scripture. Lets pray that the Holy Spirit gives them a touching. They would not have like being in the Galatian churches, where miracles were happening.

 

[ARBITER01]

I think John had it right,..

1Jn 2:5 but whoso keepeth his word, in him verily hath the love of God been perfected. Hereby know we that we are in him:
1Jn 2:6 he that saith he abideth in him ought himself also to walk even as he walked.

Jesus operated in the giftings, and we are to walk "just" as He walked according to the Greek, so if a person is badmouthing the giftings on here,.... are they in Christ???

According to John, no, since they are unable to walk like Jesus walked.

It is not hard for us to do the math is it?

 

[Big Drew]

Your another one who just doesnt get the two levels of life. Flesh and spiritual. We struggle day to day with our fleshy sins AND YET we are spiritually perfected (done deal) and made clean and spotless by the blood of Christ.

You just dont believe scripture do you?

10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.​

You say we are called to be perfect. Scripture says we've been perfected.

I choose to believe scripture, no offence.

Oh no...I get the two levels...I just see things a bit differently than you do...because we are living, breathing, human beings, we are sinful...we do not reach perfection until the Day of Resurrection...

You quoted Hebrews...let's see what the author said just a couple of chapters later...

Heb 12:14 Strive for peace with everyone, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord.

Strive for holiness? Would you not say that holiness is perfection? I would...which shows that we are not yet perfect.

This is one of many instances where we're told to strive for holiness...keep the faith, etc...

I'll believe scripture too.

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

Oh no...I get the two levels...I just see things a bit differently than you do...because we are living, breathing, human beings, we are sinful...we do not reach perfection until the Day of Resurrection...

You quoted Hebrews...let's see what the author said just a couple of chapters later...

Heb 12:14 Strive for peace with everyone, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord.

Strive for holiness? Would you not say that holiness is perfection? I would...which shows that we are not yet perfect.

This is one of many instances where we're told to strive for holiness...keep the faith, etc...

I'll believe scripture too.

Same word grouping too (agios/holy/sanctified) . . . matter of fact that passage in the NASB says "sanctification w/o which no man will see God"

so that the author is perfectly comfortable in speaking in two sense of sanctification.

1. in the finished work of the cross and resurrection
2. in the daily working of the death of the natural man unto the life of the spiritual man

good eyes bro!

 

[Frogster]

I think John had it right,..



Jesus operated in the giftings, and we are to walk "just" as He walked according to the Greek, so if a person is badmouthing the giftings on here,.... are they in Christ???

According to John, no, since they are unable to walk like Jesus walked.

It is not hard for us to do the math is it?

Good verse.

 

[sunlover1]

I think John had it right,..

1Jn 2:5 but whoso keepeth his word, in him verily hath the love of God been perfected. Hereby know we that we are in him:
1Jn 2:6 he that saith he abideth in him ought himself also to walk even as he walked.

Jesus operated in the giftings, and we are to walk "just" as He walked according to the Greek, so if a person is badmouthing the giftings on here,.... are they in Christ???

According to John, no, since they are unable to walk like Jesus walked.

It is not hard for us to do the math is it?

Good verse.

Same here Arbiter.

 

[child of Jesus]

SOO wrong on soo many levels.

MANY in orthodoxy practice this.

It is not a matter of orthodoxy at all.

The greek of Acts 2 makes it PAINFULLY clear that NOT everybody understood it because there was a WHOLE group who said "THEY ARE DRUNK" AND the usage of plural and sing pronouns paints a different picture.

Appeal to people who have been delivered ONLY proves that SOME is errant, upon which we agree, BUT NOT THAT ALL ARE ERRANT. That is a false form of logic called the incomplete comparison, another called cherry picking, another called the composition fallacy (where truths about the whole are made authoritatively based on parts), another called the spot-light fallacy and there are a few others also . . .

because there was a WHOLE group who said "THEY ARE DRUNK" AND the usage of plural and sing pronouns paints a different picture.

this is often ued as a justification by the charismatics for their "drunk in the spirit" manifestations.

the MANY that didn't understand, as with too many today WERE NOT GIVEN EARS TO HEAR.

Appeal to people who have been delivered ONLY proves that SOME is errant, upon which we agree, BUT NOT THAT ALL ARE ERRANT.

at least we agree there are counterfeits.
shouldn't EVERYONE involved in this movement take it is a sign that there are dangers? and that satan is able to counterfeit moves of God?

i'd be curious to know which renowned Charismatics you believe are genuine.

That is a false form of logic called the incomplete comparison, another called cherry picking, another called the composition fallacy (where truths about the whole are made authoritatively based on parts), another called the spot-light fallacy and there are a few others also .


SEMANTICS (fancy semantics i might add...but semantics just obscures the truth). if you like that stuff, be my guest.

mainstream Christianity has always considered this stuff to be aberrations, whether you want to admit it or not.

i can provide the history of the Pentecostal Movement (not pretty)...but if you don't understand Scripture and what is being described, and what REALLY happened at Pentecost, you won't read what i post.

The Holy Spirit is NOT the authour of confusion; nor does He knock people over backwards (when the angels or The angel of The Lord appear, people fall ON THEIR FACES in fear, pass out in terror and lay there in a coma until they are touched and calmed); nor does He provide extra-biblical revelation from the lips of certain congregational members (usually in relation to THEIR LIVES, THEIR CHURCH, THEIR FUTURES)....."Thus saith the lord" is a sacred prophetic formula uttered by the prophets of the days past.....in these last days, God SPEAKS TO US THROUGH HIS SON.

Written Word quickened by The Spirit....SOLA SCRIPTURA.

cherry picking? nope.

i think the whole thing is a delusion. sorry if that offends you.

please list examples from Historic Christianity (we will find a scant few, they were nearly all condemned as heretics) who manifested these things or uttered prophecies (extra-biblical revelation): that were REAL AND PROVEN SO (DON'T BOTHER WITH CATHOLICISM PLEASE).

i take the following warnings (just a sample) seriously.

Deuteronomy 13:3
Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.

Revelation 2:2
I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:

1 John 4:1
Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

Matthew 7:15
Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

Matthew 24:11
And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

Matthew 24:24
For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

 

[child of Jesus]

Same greek at Pent, for tongues, as acts 19...Time for u to stop throwing out the baby, with the bath water.


1 Corinthians 14:18
I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you.

there's another Char-ism "stop throwing out the baby, with the bath water"


i like you frogman....but just do a little search on Paul's pedigree.
HE SPOKE A GAZILLION LANGUAGES. puleeze.

1 Corinthians 14:18
I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you

 

[child of Jesus]

Bare assertion fallacy . . . the text of 1 cor 12-14 supports supernatural manifestations as pretty regular and pneumatic.

Support your self

naturally they were supernatural....!!
they came as a GIFT from The Holy Spirit.

but what goes on today has NOTHING to do with those gifts.

sorry.

 

[ARBITER01]

Oh no...I get the two levels...I just see things a bit differently than you do...because we are living, breathing, human beings, we are sinful...we do not reach perfection until the Day of Resurrection...

You quoted Hebrews...let's see what the author said just a couple of chapters later...

Heb 12:14 Strive for peace with everyone, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord.

Strive for holiness? Would you not say that holiness is perfection? I would...which shows that we are not yet perfect.

This is one of many instances where we're told to strive for holiness...keep the faith, etc...

I'll believe scripture too.

Another one to consider,..

2Co 7:1 Having therefore these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all defilement of flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

Whatever perfection the minority is suggesting here does not agree the whole of scripture.

 

[Big Drew]

Another one to consider,..



Whatever perfection the minority is suggesting here does not agree the whole of scripture.

I agree.