How?
salvation and love is the same thing!!!
salvation is obtained by love and many other things God require from us.
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How?
As one working out their salvation with fear and trembling, I am naturally interested in conditions to my ending up with God in Heaven, and in the "by this we know's" that inform me, assure me, that this is how things will end up.
Now, this has been a long discussion, and my efforts to read along have raised certain questions that I suppose might have been answered. Perhaps Ozell, you could point me to any posts that actually specify the commandments that we must keep. Or how you define commandments. Or any order (I like to do all things decently and in order). And what do you mean by keep? Is there any "preparing the way of the Lord" to this?
If you have already spelled this out, perhaps you could tell me which posts to look up.
Most exciting stuff. Worthy of the long thread!
Groktruth.
first and foremost thank you for the time and interest in the topic, peace to you in the mighty name of JESUS.
Where our fellow chrisitans fail to understand is God's has works HE wants us to do. let me say this again Jesus has works He wants us to do.
what are those works?
lets read what Jesus said
Jn 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
who commandments? Jesus commandments
not ozell's commandments, not man's commandments, not the Protestants, Catholics, or Orthodox commandments.
most christians think of the 10 and they are right, yet we are not taught this from the Jesus own mouth that every word from God is a command.
think about it for a moment!
Mt 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
continue next post
Sister
where you went to church at taught you to interpret God's word
The verse I put are simple and direct, no interpretation is needed!
Love is about putting others above self in an act of humility. Salvation is an example of how big, how high, how wide, how deep how unconditional God's love for man really is.How?
wow, you still didn't read what I said did you....? Try this again, 1. I am reading scripture and have posted lots of scripture for you to read, scripture that you not only ignored, but claimed wasn't presented. 2. No one is questioning the verses you presented. Scripture is scripture and in my eyes beautiful no matter what it says. but 3. your application of the scriptures is flawed, it is a lack of rightly dividing the word. For example and you have been show this many times over. Your favorite passages about obedience are about man's love for God (and we had a discussion about why obedience was part of our love for God) but those passages don't apply to God's love for man. Your claim is that God's love for man is conditional, not that man's love for God is conditional. As such, you must show scriptures that talk about the conditions of God's love. Not the conditions of man's love for God. Not the conditions of Salvation. But the conditions of God's love for man or else your application and interpretation thereof of scripture is not only flawed, but false teaching. I can't prove that oranges are orange by showing you a blueberry and saying, see, oranges are orange because this blueberry is blue. It simply doesn't work that way. If you want to show me that an orange is orange, you show me an orange. You are trying to prove that God's love is conditional by showing me man's love for God and by showing me salvation (an example of love) not by showing me God's love. Want to prove God's love is conditional, show me God's love.Sister
where you went to church at taught you to interpret God's word
The verse I put are simple and direct, no interpretation is needed!
salvation is an example of the greatness of love, it is not love. Let's see, if I say to you, chili is made with beans, it doesn't mean that all beans are chili. By the same token, just because I say that salvation is an example of love doesn't mean that salvation is all there is to love.salvation and love is the same thing!!!
salvation is obtained by love and many other things God require from us.
without question, we are to keep the commandments of God, all of them. But we are loved by God, even when we do not obey. Is obedience important yes, can we do it alone? No, we do it through the power and might of the Lord Jesus Christ.Thank you for praying a blessing for me. I hope that it comes in the form of understanding.
If I follow your thinking, and take these verses literally as written, without interpretation, I get something like the "Commands of Christ" curriculum offered by Bill Gothard. Is that what you are getting from God as the proper response to the admonition to "keep His commandments?"
Now, the last verse, about every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God, seems to me to imply that taking any scripture literally is not what God wants from us. He wants instead for us to inquire of Him what He has to say to us about what is written.
I believe He told me that the word "keep" in the scriptures in reference to commands includes such asking. He confirmed this prophetic revelation by leading me to Deut 28:1 in the NKJV, where it is written, "...if you diligently obey the voice of the Lord your God, to observe (keep?) carefully all His commandments,..."
I got into this because I read that all liars have their part in the lake of fire, which I did not want. But, anyone who says that they know the lord, but does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. (1 John 2:4). So, I am very interested in what others hearkening to the voice of the Lord are hearing, as He informs them of what He wants us to do about keeping his commandments.
Stephen
salvation is an example of the greatness of love, it is not love. Let's see, if I say to you, chili is made with beans, it doesn't mean that all beans are chili. By the same token, just because I say that salvation is an example of love doesn't mean that salvation is all there is to love.
hate cannot be the opposite of love, we have talked about this several times not and no one has yet countered it with anything but "ya huh"...First, hate cannot be the opposite of love because hate is an emotion, love transends emotions, it transends actions, it transcends attitudes. Love is all these and more, therefore, the opposite cannot be mere emotions. Secondly, hate is an emotion that shows a degree of disapproval, nothing more or less. And while we are on the idea of negative emotions, punishment, even death are not the antithesis of love either. It all goes back to what biblical love really is.Well, we know that God hated Esau, so there are some that He hates, and some that He loves.
that's his definition of our Love for HIm, not His love for us.His definition of love, though, is "keeping the commandments."
that is judgment, which is part of love.It's hard for me to see God not keeping the commandments. But then, He says that if we don't receive the love of the truth, He will put on us the "great spirit of delusion" to get us to believe the lie that costs us salvation. Is that love or hate?
and scripture says that He loved us even when we were his enemies. IOW's He loved you even before your grandmother prayed, which is unconditional love. Salvation is a different matter.I asked God once why He saved me. He said that my grandmother, Bessie Mae prayed for me. His "love" for me was conditional, that is, on my Grandmother's prayers. (She WAS a bit hard to turn down, when she wanted something.) But then, after I chose His life, He said that He inspired Grandma to pray for me. Go figure.
why not, we can read and understand scripture can't we? I presented a whole page of passages that show God's love to be unconditional, and I offered to present many more and instead of dealing with the scripture, I was accused of not presenting any. Consider this, I have been studying God's love for years now, an in depth, deep study, like 10-12 hour day study sometimes, 6-8 other days. When I came to this question, all I wanted to know was if God's love was conditional or not. So I studied that one aspect of God's love. Passage after passage after passage told me the same thing, God's love is without condition. I studied some more, seeking God, not man, not teaching, but just God. Time and time and time again, the scriptures all said the same thing, God's love is without condition. Eventually, after so many passages all saying the same thing, one must either ignore scripture or come to the conclusion that God's love is unconditional. But in order to understand this, it is necessary to grasp the beginning of understanding of what real love is. Real love, God's love is without condition and after studying scripture, I have no doubt at all about this.Will we ever know if God's love is conditional? Not while we are down here.
salvation is conditional, without doubt, but God's love is not."If any man thinks he knows something, he doesn't know anything as he ought." Who cares? I want to be saved, and I am pretty sure that that salvation is conditional.
glad you are getting something out of it. And thanks for joining in, I was getting tired of the circles Ozell was taking this discussion in.Your thinking is inspiring, BTW. Thanks for sharing.
My last post was written before I read all the others you had made, Ozell, so I see that you start with the ten commandments of Moses, but expand from there. I have thought about starting with the first command of all, "Be fruitful, and multiply, fill the earth and subdue it, ruling over the fish of the seas, the birds of the air, and all the beasts that crawl on the earth."
But it seems relevant to me that in the "great commission" at the end of Matthew, Jesus himself stresses "all things whatsoever I (Jesus) commanded" His original 12.
this after you were repeatedly taken back to the OT and refused to address any of it.Bro Stephen
we can start at be fruitfull and multiply or even at in the beginning, for me its a blessing that your understanding starts in Genesis and not Matthew as some do.
=groktruth;55812627]Thank you for praying a blessing for me. I hope that it comes in the form of understanding.
If I follow your thinking, and take these verses literally as written, without interpretation, I get something like the "Commands of Christ" curriculum offered by Bill Gothard. Is that what you are getting from God as the proper response to the admonition to "keep His commandments?"
Now, the last verse, about every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God, seems to me to imply that taking any scripture literally is not what God wants from us. He wants instead for us to inquire of Him what He has to say to us about what is written.
I believe He told me that the word "keep" in the scriptures in reference to commands includes such asking. He confirmed this prophetic revelation by leading me to Deut 28:1 in the NKJV, where it is written, "...if you diligently obey the voice of the Lord your God, to observe (keep?) carefully all His commandments,..."
I got into this because I read that all liars have their part in the lake of fire, which I did not want. But, anyone who says that they know the lord, but does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. (1 John 2:4). So, I am very interested in what others hearkening to the voice of the Lord are hearing, as He informs them of what He wants us to do about keeping his commandments. Stephen
this after you were repeatedly taken back to the OT and refused to address any of it.
Ozell,
Your assumption is incorrect. NO church (or seminary) I ever went to ever taught me to interpret God's Word correctly.
The Holy Spirit of the Living God is the only One who ever taught me how to "rightly divided the Word of Truth".
salvation is an example of the greatness of love, it is not love. Let's see, if I say to you, chili is made with beans, it doesn't mean that all beans are chili. By the same token, just because I say that salvation is an example of love doesn't mean that salvation is all there is to love.
so now Rev. is OT? What bible do you read? Mine has Rev. in the NT, last book of the bible.the scriptures I put don't need to be addressed
Rv 22:11He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still:
and
he that is righteous, let him be righteous still:
and
he that is holy, let him be holy still.