Jesus is a God of conditional Love, not unconditional love. (2)

Status
Not open for further replies.

ozell

Well-Known Member
Jun 28, 2007
4,777
60
chicago il
✟5,327.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
As one working out their salvation with fear and trembling, I am naturally interested in conditions to my ending up with God in Heaven, and in the "by this we know's" that inform me, assure me, that this is how things will end up.

Now, this has been a long discussion, and my efforts to read along have raised certain questions that I suppose might have been answered. Perhaps Ozell, you could point me to any posts that actually specify the commandments that we must keep. Or how you define commandments. Or any order (I like to do all things decently and in order). And what do you mean by keep? Is there any "preparing the way of the Lord" to this?

If you have already spelled this out, perhaps you could tell me which posts to look up.

Most exciting stuff. Worthy of the long thread!

Groktruth.


lets look at the commandments, the first 4 commandments


Ex 20

1: And God spake all these words, saying,

WHO SPAKE THESE WORDS? God!! Is Jesus God? YES!!!

2: I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

3: Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

4: Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
5: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
6: And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
7: Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

8: Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9: Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
11: For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

The first 4 commandments is how we love and serve God!!!

Go back and reread them,

then ask yourself this from Jesus

Jn 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Do you love him?

then you must keep his commandments

think about is keeping the commandments require works on our part

think of all the faiths, denominations, that is out here.

it require work on our part to stay true to Jesus.

we take the name of God in vain? yes we do?

we have other God's before Jesus wheter it is a house , car, family, or yoga which is the indian God. thnk about it.

we don't keep the seventh day sabbath which we call saturday. most christian attend church on the 1st day which we call sunday.

in the world we live in it is a job trying to love the Lord the way he wants us to love him, we have so many temptation in our path.

continue to the next post
 
Upvote 0

ozell

Well-Known Member
Jun 28, 2007
4,777
60
chicago il
✟5,327.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Now I know we all should agree that the last 6 commandments require works on our part

lets read

many 1 parent house hold the children hate the father becasue he left!

12: Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.

people are killing at a alarming rate, jealousy, diefferent beliefs, money,

13: Thou shalt not kill.

the divorce rate is over 50% people can't keep there hands of of other people spouses, married folks won't be satified with what they got at home.

14: Thou shalt not commit adultery.

from the goverment on down to the homeless on the street

15: Thou shalt not steal.

a major problem with our society is lying

16: Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.

the home foreclosure and credit cards has put many of us in this crisis, we hwant what the joneses have yet we could not afford it.

17: Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.

it require work on our part to make sure we keep the commandments of God

Jesus had John write

1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God,

that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Jesus love us if we keep his commandments
 
Upvote 0

ozell

Well-Known Member
Jun 28, 2007
4,777
60
chicago il
✟5,327.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Jn 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

who commandments are these in the NT?

in the soceity that we live in, we struggle day and night trying to keep GOD'S commandments

yet it can be done.

these are the works these are our deeds that Jesus require from us

do we love God, if we do then we must keep his commandments

Jn 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
 
Upvote 0
G

groktruth

Guest
first and foremost thank you for the time and interest in the topic, peace to you in the mighty name of JESUS.

Where our fellow chrisitans fail to understand is God's has works HE wants us to do. let me say this again Jesus has works He wants us to do.

what are those works?

lets read what Jesus said

Jn 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

who commandments? Jesus commandments

not ozell's commandments, not man's commandments, not the Protestants, Catholics, or Orthodox commandments.

most christians think of the 10 and they are right, yet we are not taught this from the Jesus own mouth that every word from God is a command.

think about it for a moment! :D

Mt 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

continue next post

Thank you for praying a blessing for me. I hope that it comes in the form of understanding.

If I follow your thinking, and take these verses literally as written, without interpretation, I get something like the "Commands of Christ" curriculum offered by Bill Gothard. Is that what you are getting from God as the proper response to the admonition to "keep His commandments?"

Now, the last verse, about every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God, seems to me to imply that taking any scripture literally is not what God wants from us. He wants instead for us to inquire of Him what He has to say to us about what is written.

I believe He told me that the word "keep" in the scriptures in reference to commands includes such asking. He confirmed this prophetic revelation by leading me to Deut 28:1 in the NKJV, where it is written, "...if you diligently obey the voice of the Lord your God, to observe (keep?) carefully all His commandments,..."

I got into this because I read that all liars have their part in the lake of fire, which I did not want. But, anyone who says that they know the lord, but does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. (1 John 2:4). So, I am very interested in what others hearkening to the voice of the Lord are hearing, as He informs them of what He wants us to do about keeping his commandments.

Stephen
 
Upvote 0
G

groktruth

Guest
My last post was written before I read all the others you had made, Ozell, so I see that you start with the ten commandments of Moses, but expand from there. I have thought about starting with the first command of all, "Be fruitful, and multiply, fill the earth and subdue it, ruling over the fish of the seas, the birds of the air, and all the beasts that crawl on the earth."

But it seems relevant to me that in the "great commission" at the end of Matthew, Jesus himself stresses "all things whatsoever I (Jesus) commanded" His original 12.
 
Upvote 0

RevRo

Newbie
Sep 16, 2010
348
10
Florida
✟8,073.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Sister

where you went to church at taught you to interpret God's word

The verse I put are simple and direct, no interpretation is needed!

Ozell,
Your assumption is incorrect. NO church (or seminary) I ever went to ever taught me to interpret God's Word correctly.

The Holy Spirit of the Living God is the only One who ever taught me how to "rightly divided the Word of Truth".
 
Upvote 0

razzelflabben

Contributor
Nov 8, 2003
25,814
2,508
63
Ohio
✟122,293.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Sister

where you went to church at taught you to interpret God's word

The verse I put are simple and direct, no interpretation is needed!
wow, you still didn't read what I said did you....? Try this again, 1. I am reading scripture and have posted lots of scripture for you to read, scripture that you not only ignored, but claimed wasn't presented. 2. No one is questioning the verses you presented. Scripture is scripture and in my eyes beautiful no matter what it says. but 3. your application of the scriptures is flawed, it is a lack of rightly dividing the word. For example and you have been show this many times over. Your favorite passages about obedience are about man's love for God (and we had a discussion about why obedience was part of our love for God) but those passages don't apply to God's love for man. Your claim is that God's love for man is conditional, not that man's love for God is conditional. As such, you must show scriptures that talk about the conditions of God's love. Not the conditions of man's love for God. Not the conditions of Salvation. But the conditions of God's love for man or else your application and interpretation thereof of scripture is not only flawed, but false teaching. I can't prove that oranges are orange by showing you a blueberry and saying, see, oranges are orange because this blueberry is blue. It simply doesn't work that way. If you want to show me that an orange is orange, you show me an orange. You are trying to prove that God's love is conditional by showing me man's love for God and by showing me salvation (an example of love) not by showing me God's love. Want to prove God's love is conditional, show me God's love.
 
Upvote 0

razzelflabben

Contributor
Nov 8, 2003
25,814
2,508
63
Ohio
✟122,293.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
salvation and love is the same thing!!!

salvation is obtained by love and many other things God require from us.
salvation is an example of the greatness of love, it is not love. Let's see, if I say to you, chili is made with beans, it doesn't mean that all beans are chili. By the same token, just because I say that salvation is an example of love doesn't mean that salvation is all there is to love.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

razzelflabben

Contributor
Nov 8, 2003
25,814
2,508
63
Ohio
✟122,293.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Thank you for praying a blessing for me. I hope that it comes in the form of understanding.

If I follow your thinking, and take these verses literally as written, without interpretation, I get something like the "Commands of Christ" curriculum offered by Bill Gothard. Is that what you are getting from God as the proper response to the admonition to "keep His commandments?"

Now, the last verse, about every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God, seems to me to imply that taking any scripture literally is not what God wants from us. He wants instead for us to inquire of Him what He has to say to us about what is written.

I believe He told me that the word "keep" in the scriptures in reference to commands includes such asking. He confirmed this prophetic revelation by leading me to Deut 28:1 in the NKJV, where it is written, "...if you diligently obey the voice of the Lord your God, to observe (keep?) carefully all His commandments,..."

I got into this because I read that all liars have their part in the lake of fire, which I did not want. But, anyone who says that they know the lord, but does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. (1 John 2:4). So, I am very interested in what others hearkening to the voice of the Lord are hearing, as He informs them of what He wants us to do about keeping his commandments.

Stephen
without question, we are to keep the commandments of God, all of them. But we are loved by God, even when we do not obey. Is obedience important yes, can we do it alone? No, we do it through the power and might of the Lord Jesus Christ.
 
Upvote 0
G

groktruth

Guest
salvation is an example of the greatness of love, it is not love. Let's see, if I say to you, chili is made with beans, it doesn't mean that all beans are chili. By the same token, just because I say that salvation is an example of love doesn't mean that salvation is all there is to love.

Well, we know that God hated Esau, so there are some that He hates, and some that He loves. His definition of love, though, is "keeping the commandments." It's hard for me to see God not keeping the commandments. But then, He says that if we don't receive the love of the truth, He will put on us the "great spirit of delusion" to get us to believe the lie that costs us salvation. Is that love or hate?

I asked God once why He saved me. He said that my grandmother, Bessie Mae prayed for me. His "love" for me was conditional, that is, on my Grandmother's prayers. (She WAS a bit hard to turn down, when she wanted something.) But then, after I chose His life, He said that He inspired Grandma to pray for me. Go figure.

Will we ever know if God's love is conditional? Not while we are down here. "If any man thinks he knows something, he doesn't know anything as he ought." Who cares? I want to be saved, and I am pretty sure that that salvation is conditional.

Your thinking is inspiring, BTW. Thanks for sharing.
 
Upvote 0

razzelflabben

Contributor
Nov 8, 2003
25,814
2,508
63
Ohio
✟122,293.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Well, we know that God hated Esau, so there are some that He hates, and some that He loves.
hate cannot be the opposite of love, we have talked about this several times not and no one has yet countered it with anything but "ya huh"...First, hate cannot be the opposite of love because hate is an emotion, love transends emotions, it transends actions, it transcends attitudes. Love is all these and more, therefore, the opposite cannot be mere emotions. Secondly, hate is an emotion that shows a degree of disapproval, nothing more or less. And while we are on the idea of negative emotions, punishment, even death are not the antithesis of love either. It all goes back to what biblical love really is.
His definition of love, though, is "keeping the commandments."
that's his definition of our Love for HIm, not His love for us.
It's hard for me to see God not keeping the commandments. But then, He says that if we don't receive the love of the truth, He will put on us the "great spirit of delusion" to get us to believe the lie that costs us salvation. Is that love or hate?
that is judgment, which is part of love.
I asked God once why He saved me. He said that my grandmother, Bessie Mae prayed for me. His "love" for me was conditional, that is, on my Grandmother's prayers. (She WAS a bit hard to turn down, when she wanted something.) But then, after I chose His life, He said that He inspired Grandma to pray for me. Go figure.
and scripture says that He loved us even when we were his enemies. IOW's He loved you even before your grandmother prayed, which is unconditional love. Salvation is a different matter.
Will we ever know if God's love is conditional? Not while we are down here.
why not, we can read and understand scripture can't we? I presented a whole page of passages that show God's love to be unconditional, and I offered to present many more and instead of dealing with the scripture, I was accused of not presenting any. Consider this, I have been studying God's love for years now, an in depth, deep study, like 10-12 hour day study sometimes, 6-8 other days. When I came to this question, all I wanted to know was if God's love was conditional or not. So I studied that one aspect of God's love. Passage after passage after passage told me the same thing, God's love is without condition. I studied some more, seeking God, not man, not teaching, but just God. Time and time and time again, the scriptures all said the same thing, God's love is without condition. Eventually, after so many passages all saying the same thing, one must either ignore scripture or come to the conclusion that God's love is unconditional. But in order to understand this, it is necessary to grasp the beginning of understanding of what real love is. Real love, God's love is without condition and after studying scripture, I have no doubt at all about this.
"If any man thinks he knows something, he doesn't know anything as he ought." Who cares? I want to be saved, and I am pretty sure that that salvation is conditional.
salvation is conditional, without doubt, but God's love is not.
Your thinking is inspiring, BTW. Thanks for sharing.
glad you are getting something out of it. And thanks for joining in, I was getting tired of the circles Ozell was taking this discussion in.
 
Upvote 0

ozell

Well-Known Member
Jun 28, 2007
4,777
60
chicago il
✟5,327.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
My last post was written before I read all the others you had made, Ozell, so I see that you start with the ten commandments of Moses, but expand from there. I have thought about starting with the first command of all, "Be fruitful, and multiply, fill the earth and subdue it, ruling over the fish of the seas, the birds of the air, and all the beasts that crawl on the earth."

But it seems relevant to me that in the "great commission" at the end of Matthew, Jesus himself stresses "all things whatsoever I (Jesus) commanded" His original 12.

Bro Stephen

we can start at be fruitfull and multiply or even at in the beginning, for me its a blessing that your understanding starts in Genesis and not Matthew as some do.
 
Upvote 0

razzelflabben

Contributor
Nov 8, 2003
25,814
2,508
63
Ohio
✟122,293.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Bro Stephen

we can start at be fruitfull and multiply or even at in the beginning, for me its a blessing that your understanding starts in Genesis and not Matthew as some do.
this after you were repeatedly taken back to the OT and refused to address any of it.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

ozell

Well-Known Member
Jun 28, 2007
4,777
60
chicago il
✟5,327.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
=groktruth;55812627]Thank you for praying a blessing for me. I hope that it comes in the form of understanding.

If I follow your thinking, and take these verses literally as written, without interpretation, I get something like the "Commands of Christ" curriculum offered by Bill Gothard. Is that what you are getting from God as the proper response to the admonition to "keep His commandments?"

I never heard of bill gothard until now, but keeping God's commandments is a literal process, which will bring spiritual knowledge and understanding.

God is a spirit

Jn 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

God word is spirit

Jn 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.


Jesus is spirit
Jesus words are spirit

what do that make every word that proceeds from the Lord's mouth?
we read it

The Lord who gave us his words is also spirit, we read it!

who gives understanding?

Prov 2:6 For the LORD giveth wisdom: out of his mouth cometh knowledge and understanding.

Prov 9:10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding.

Now, the last verse, about every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God, seems to me to imply that taking any scripture literally is not what God wants from us. He wants instead for us to inquire of Him what He has to say to us about what is written.

show me that verse in the bible

I believe He told me that the word "keep" in the scriptures in reference to commands includes such asking. He confirmed this prophetic revelation by leading me to Deut 28:1 in the NKJV, where it is written, "...if you diligently obey the voice of the Lord your God, to observe (keep?) carefully all His commandments,..."

to obey we would have to keep, literally, don't you think?

can I spiritually lie on my brother?
can I spiritually covet my brother?
can I spiritually dishonour my parents?

I got into this because I read that all liars have their part in the lake of fire, which I did not want. But, anyone who says that they know the lord, but does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. (1 John 2:4). So, I am very interested in what others hearkening to the voice of the Lord are hearing, as He informs them of what He wants us to do about keeping his commandments. Stephen

He also said this that we christian ignore

Mt 12:37

6: But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

sounds like someone may get into the lake of fire by words (liars and those who lie)

to stick with the lesson

surely a God who loves everyone would not do such a thing!!!
 
Upvote 0

ozell

Well-Known Member
Jun 28, 2007
4,777
60
chicago il
✟5,327.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
this after you were repeatedly taken back to the OT and refused to address any of it.

the scriptures I put don't need to be addressed

Rv 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still:

and

he that is righteous, let him be righteous still:

and

he that is holy, let him be holy still.
 
Upvote 0

ozell

Well-Known Member
Jun 28, 2007
4,777
60
chicago il
✟5,327.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Ozell,
Your assumption is incorrect. NO church (or seminary) I ever went to ever taught me to interpret God's Word correctly.

The Holy Spirit of the Living God is the only One who ever taught me how to "rightly divided the Word of Truth".

Sister

No disrespect

but we all come out of someones church and has some man's doctrine

if the holy spirit is teaching you and I believe he is, then we should be in agreement.

we read the same book from the same God who sends the same spirit

Sister

let the holy spirit lead and Guide you in all truth

lets read

Jn 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.


let me ask you this and please be honest to yourself

are the commandments conditions?

 
Upvote 0

ozell

Well-Known Member
Jun 28, 2007
4,777
60
chicago il
✟5,327.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
salvation is an example of the greatness of love, it is not love. Let's see, if I say to you, chili is made with beans, it doesn't mean that all beans are chili. By the same token, just because I say that salvation is an example of love doesn't mean that salvation is all there is to love.

salvation is being saved

salvation is salvaging something

salvation is eternal life

salvation is Jesus

when do we get salvation?

when does salvation return?

how do we obtain salvation?

lets read


Lk 3:6 And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.

all flesh has not seen Jesus(salvation)

Lk 19:9 And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham.

who is the salvation that came in this person house?

Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

what is the name of salvation?

Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

who do we confess out prayers and faults to?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

razzelflabben

Contributor
Nov 8, 2003
25,814
2,508
63
Ohio
✟122,293.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
the scriptures I put don't need to be addressed

Rv 22:11He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still:

and

he that is righteous, let him be righteous still:

and

he that is holy, let him be holy still.
so now Rev. is OT? What bible do you read? Mine has Rev. in the NT, last book of the bible.
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.