Jesus is a God of conditional Love, not unconditional love. (2)

[razzelflabben]

salvation is being saved

salvation is salvaging something

salvation is eternal life

salvation is Jesus

when do we get salvation?

when does salvation return?

how do we obtain salvation?

lets read


Lk 3:6 And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.

all flesh has not seen Jesus(salvation)

Lk 19:9 And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham.

who is the salvation that came in this person house?

Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

what is the name of salvation?

Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

who do we confess out prayers and faults to?

Look, I have dealt with you enough to know that addressing topics that are off the OP topic is a bad idea, so let's stick to the topic of God's love for the moment instead of sidetracking into what salvation is and how it comes to us....okay? For the sake of the discussion at hand, let's stick to topic, God's love, not His salvation.

 

[RevRo]

Sister

No disrespect

but we all come out of someones church and has some man's doctrine

if the holy spirit is teaching you and I believe he is, then we should be in agreement.

we read the same book from the same God who sends the same spirit

Sister

let the holy spirit lead and Guide you in all truth

lets read

Jn 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.


let me ask you this and please be honest to yourself

are the commandments conditions?

Let's start with God's unconditional love. God loves unconditionally but there is one condition to that. You have to believe in His Son's death and resurection to be able to enter into His unconditional love, therefore His unconditional love is conditional. O.K.? He even loves those who chose to go to hell, because He IS love. Jesus has a condition on being His disciple and knowing the truth and that is "IF you continue in my word, then are you my disciples and (then) you will know the truth and the truth will set you free."

I have continued in His word and every lie I was taught in churchs and seminaries, the Holy Spirit has shown me to be false and has shown me the truth. Therefore, I no longer listen to man's teaching and have learned to obey and rely ONLY on the Holy Spirit, even to reading the written word, which I know now has been polluted by man's hand touching it and deliberately intrepreted some scriptures to back up their beliefs (such as King James with his beliefs of predestination) but taking away or inserting things that are not in the original texts. I can't even believe in the Old Testament laws because Jeremiah says in chapter 8 and verse 8 "'How can you say, "We are wise, for we have the law of the LORD," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?"
That makes me understand how the Pharisees tried to condemn Jesus Christ for breaking the law of Moses when He indeed knew what God's laws really were and He knew He was not breaking God's laws, but what the false pen of the scribes had added to God's laws.
Jesus said He came to fulfill the law and He did. The Holy Spirit fulfills the law in the heart of the believer by working His fruit in a receptive heart. So receptive is a condition.
He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant--not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. 2 Corinthians 3:6

 

[groktruth]

hate cannot be the opposite of love, we have talked about this several times not and no one has yet countered it with anything but "ya huh"...First, hate cannot be the opposite of love because hate is an emotion, love transends emotions, it transends actions, it transcends attitudes. Love is all these and more, therefore, the opposite cannot be mere emotions. Secondly, hate is an emotion that shows a degree of disapproval, nothing more or less. And while we are on the idea of negative emotions, punishment, even death are not the antithesis of love either. It all goes back to what biblical love really is. that's his definition of our Love for HIm, not His love for us. that is judgment, which is part of love. and scripture says that He loved us even when we were his enemies. IOW's He loved you even before your grandmother prayed, which is unconditional love. Salvation is a different matter. why not, we can read and understand scripture can't we? I presented a whole page of passages that show God's love to be unconditional, and I offered to present many more and instead of dealing with the scripture, I was accused of not presenting any. Consider this, I have been studying God's love for years now, an in depth, deep study, like 10-12 hour day study sometimes, 6-8 other days. When I came to this question, all I wanted to know was if God's love was conditional or not. So I studied that one aspect of God's love. Passage after passage after passage told me the same thing, God's love is without condition. I studied some more, seeking God, not man, not teaching, but just God. Time and time and time again, the scriptures all said the same thing, God's love is without condition. Eventually, after so many passages all saying the same thing, one must either ignore scripture or come to the conclusion that God's love is unconditional. But in order to understand this, it is necessary to grasp the beginning of understanding of what real love is. Real love, God's love is without condition and after studying scripture, I have no doubt at all about this. salvation is conditional, without doubt, but God's love is not. glad you are getting something out of it. And thanks for joining in, I was getting tired of the circles Ozell was taking this discussion in.

Well, that is quite a testimony! I have heard God say that if anyone buys the truth (by paying attention, spending time, and investing themselves) they will have the receipts of their purchase, which we all are to honor. To argue with what they have bought reflects on Him as an unfaithful truth merchant. Like Ozell, I sort of wish the word unconditional was in the scrptures, but I am aware that it is the glory of God to conceal a matter.

Meanwhile, I see no danger in wrongly thinking His love is conditional, or unconditional, while there is comfort in thinking that His love is unconditional. If someone is sinning willfully, and says, "Why not? God's love is unconditional!" I know to warn them that His unconditional love includes severe judgments. But if they are clearly doubting that He will welcome them, because they have broken what they think are the conditions of His love, I can now tell them that His love is unconditional, and He will forgive them if they come to Him honestly with their shameful works.

So, thank you again for your buying so much of the truth, and being generous to share what you got.

 

[groktruth]

Bro Stephen

we can start at be fruitfull and multiply or even at in the beginning, for me its a blessing that your understanding starts in Genesis and not Matthew as some do.

Bill Gothard, who I believe you would find refreshing, "rightly divides" the commandments, which he treats as "the word of truth," ("Thy law is truth.") into three groups: The law and the prophets, the commandments of Jesus, and the admonitions of the Holy Spirit. All of these as given in scripture. I believe he identifies the three baptisms of the gospel, name of the Father, the name of the Son, and the name of the Holy Spirit as a commitment to walk in, or keep, these three lists of commandments. Because Jesus commands us to teach "all things" that He commanded His disciples, and this "all things" shows up later in the spiritual admonition to "let all things be done decently and in order,"Gothard's curriculum for teaching the commandments of Christ deals with them in the order that they appear in the NT.

This seems good to the Holy Spirit in His dealings with me.

 

[RevRo]

Well, that is quite a testimony! I have heard God say that if anyone buys the truth (by paying attention, spending time, and investing themselves) they will have the receipts of their purchase, which we all are to honor. To argue with what they have bought reflects on Him as an unfaithful truth merchant. Like Ozell, I sort of wish the word unconditional was in the scrptures, but I am aware that it is the glory of God to conceal a matter.

Meanwhile, I see no danger in wrongly thinking His love is conditional, or unconditional, while there is comfort in thinking that His love is unconditional. If someone is sinning willfully, and says, "Why not? God's love is unconditional!" I know to warn them that His unconditional love includes severe judgments. But if they are clearly doubting that He will welcome them, because they have broken what they think are the conditions of His love, I can now tell them that His love is unconditional, and He will forgive them if they come to Him honestly with their shameful works.

So, thank you again for your buying so much of the truth, and being generous to share what you got.

So once again we see that to enter into God's unconditional love is conditional.
"IF we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

 

[RevRo]

Bill Gothard, who I believe you would find refreshing, "rightly divides" the commandments, which he treats as "the word of truth," ("Thy law is truth.") into three groups: The law and the prophets, the commandments of Jesus, and the admonitions of the Holy Spirit. All of these as given in scripture. I believe he identifies the three baptisms of the gospel, name of the Father, the name of the Son, and the name of the Holy Spirit as a commitment to walk in, or keep, these three lists of commandments. Because Jesus commands us to teach "all things" that He commanded His disciples, and this "all things" shows up later in the spiritual admonition to "let all things be done decently and in order,"Gothard's curriculum for teaching the commandments of Christ deals with them in the order that they appear in the NT.

This seems good to the Holy Spirit in His dealings with me.

Ephesians 4:5
4 There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to one hope when you were called— 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

Baptising them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost is not found in any of the earliest manuscripts. Matthew 28:19

 

[tackattack]

"God loves unconditionally but there is one condition to that" I don't think there is. Love is a relationship. Our God is a personal God. God loves us unconditionally. Our acceptnce of that Love rests on our recievnning of it. It's a strictly apologetic dissonance not a polemic one. The only reason it ever comes up is because non-believers question the reality of God because of logical contradictions. Does recieving God's Love have conditions? yes, acceptance. Is God's Love fully flowing and a perfect Love? Yes, as long as you accept it.

 

[groktruth]

Baptising them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost is not found in any of the earliest manuscripts. Matthew 28:19

The one Spirit told me quite clearly that the scriptures were mainly to be used to get me into a place of hearing God speak directly, the spiritual gift of prophecy (I corinth 14:1). Now, it so happens that when I testified before the Lord that I was committed to keeping the law and the prophets, the commandments of Jesus, and the admonitions of the Holy Spirit, that my (one) baptism was a testimony of that commitment, and that I intended to keep my word by taking one commandment daily from each grouping, and ask Him to speak to me about that commandment, when I said all that, my hearing sharpened considerably. And I heard clearly that He was pleased with my commitment. He said that I would have to die to self to keep these commandments, which the baptism accomplished. Without the baptism, He said I would not be able to bear what He wanted to tell me about keeping those commandments.

But, of course,if there is any general direction to this, it is that you will have to hear from the Spirit yourself. He told me, btw that He oversaw the NKJV translation, and that He would confirm what He said to me there. Sounds as if He has told you to look into the older manuscripts.

Thanks for caring and sharing. I will ask Him what more He wanted me to learn from your post.

 

[ozell]

The God of conditions destroyeth the Perfect and the wicked

Job 9:22 This is one thing, therefore I said it, He destroyeth the perfect and the wicked.


why would the God of unconditional love destroyeth?

 

[ozell]

read the conditions from Paul

Paul said follow peace with all men, and holiness this is a condition

Heb 12:14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:

because if you don't you shalll not see the Lord

 

[ozell]

Eccl 3:8 A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.

Solomon wrote there is a time to hate as there is a time to love!!!

love opposes hate
hate oppose love

as war opposes peace
peace opposes war

 

[razzelflabben]

Let's start with God's unconditional love. God loves unconditionally but there is one condition to that. You have to believe in His Son's death and resurection to be able to enter into His unconditional love, therefore His unconditional love is conditional. O.K.?]

that is a condition of salvation, of fully dwelling in that Love, not a condition of that love being extended to you.

He even loves those who chose to go to hell, because He IS love. Jesus has a condition on being His disciple and knowing the truth and that is "IF you continue in my word, then are you my disciples and (then) you will know the truth and the truth will set you free."

I have continued in His word and every lie I was taught in churchs and seminaries, the Holy Spirit has shown me to be false and has shown me the truth. Therefore, I no longer listen to man's teaching and have learned to obey and rely ONLY on the Holy Spirit, even to reading the written word, which I know now has been polluted by man's hand touching it and deliberately intrepreted some scriptures to back up their beliefs (such as King James with his beliefs of predestination) but taking away or inserting things that are not in the original texts. I can't even believe in the Old Testament laws because Jeremiah says in chapter 8 and verse 8 "'How can you say, "We are wise, for we have the law of the LORD," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?"
That makes me understand how the Pharisees tried to condemn Jesus Christ for breaking the law of Moses when He indeed knew what God's laws really were and He knew He was not breaking God's laws, but what the false pen of the scribes had added to God's laws.
Jesus said He came to fulfill the law and He did. The Holy Spirit fulfills the law in the heart of the believer by working His fruit in a receptive heart. So receptive is a condition.
He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant--not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. 2 Corinthians 3:6

Conditions for living or dwelling in that love, for fully realizing the wonders of that love, but not conditions for being loved.

 

[razzelflabben]

Well, that is quite a testimony! I have heard God say that if anyone buys the truth (by paying attention, spending time, and investing themselves) they will have the receipts of their purchase, which we all are to honor. To argue with what they have bought reflects on Him as an unfaithful truth merchant. Like Ozell, I sort of wish the word unconditional was in the scrptures, but I am aware that it is the glory of God to conceal a matter.

Meanwhile, I see no danger in wrongly thinking His love is conditional, or unconditional, while there is comfort in thinking that His love is unconditional. If someone is sinning willfully, and says, "Why not? God's love is unconditional!" I know to warn them that His unconditional love includes severe judgments. But if they are clearly doubting that He will welcome them, because they have broken what they think are the conditions of His love, I can now tell them that His love is unconditional, and He will forgive them if they come to Him honestly with their shameful works.

So, thank you again for your buying so much of the truth, and being generous to share what you got.

First let me say that the word in I cor. 13 where it says, love is not rude, really means shame, it is generally used for sexual referrences but is not limited to sexual activity. So when you say, "honestly with their shameful works" the idea is solid, but in God's love, love removes that shame...just wanted to throw that beautiful part of love in there.

As to the importance. Love sums up all the law and the prophets according to scripture. If we don't understand love, we can't understand the law or the prophets, which means nothing God did, does, commands, makes any sense. Grasping God's unconditional love, is about grasping a glimpse, small though it may be, of who God really is and why, He longs to have you love Him.

 

[RevRo]

"God loves unconditionally but there is one condition to that" I don't think there is. Love is a relationship. Our God is a personal God. God loves us unconditionally. Our acceptnce of that Love rests on our recievnning of it. It's a strictly apologetic dissonance not a polemic one. The only reason it ever comes up is because non-believers question the reality of God because of logical contradictions. Does recieving God's Love have conditions? yes, acceptance. Is God's Love fully flowing and a perfect Love? Yes, as long as you accept it.

You disagree with the statement and then turn around and say exactly the same thing.

 

[razzelflabben]

You disagree with the statement and then turn around and say exactly the same thing.

what I was disagreeing with is the first sentence, it is that first sentence that gets many hung up. God's love is never conditional on anything. Our living in that love, dwelling in it, fully realizing it in our lives, does have conditions. They are two different things and where you explained that, the first sentence is where many people stop reading. It is an interesting phenomina (don't know how to spell it) people tend to read the first sentence and skip everything else. That is why our first sentence, our topic sentence if you will, needs to be so well thought out. The way you wrote that, it can be twisted and manipulated and otherwise revised to mean anything we want it to mean, if we don't read further, and read in context.

consider this, Ozell can't even write in paragraph form, he is too afraid that he will be held accountable for what he says, to say anything at all. So he keeps things at one short sentence and nothing more. He has equally demonstrated a lack of ability or willingness (not sure which) to read complete paragraphs for meaning. Therefore if he reads your topic sentence and stops, he gets the idea that God's love is conditional, he is happy, and walks off content that he convinced you of lies.

Sorry if that offended you, it was a way of trying to force people like Ozell to put forth the effort to actually read the text.

 

[RevRo]

The one Spirit told me quite clearly that the scriptures were mainly to be used to get me into a place of hearing God speak directly, the spiritual gift of prophecy (I corinth 14:1). Now, it so happens that when I testified before the Lord that I was committed to keeping the law and the prophets, the commandments of Jesus, and the admonitions of the Holy Spirit, that my (one) baptism was a testimony of that commitment, and that I intended to keep my word by taking one commandment daily from each grouping, and ask Him to speak to me about that commandment, when I said all that, my hearing sharpened considerably. And I heard clearly that He was pleased with my commitment. He said that I would have to die to self to keep these commandments, which the baptism accomplished. Without the baptism, He said I would not be able to bear what He wanted to tell me about keeping those commandments.

But, of course,if there is any general direction to this, it is that you will have to hear from the Spirit yourself. He told me, btw that He oversaw the NKJV translation, and that He would confirm what He said to me there. Sounds as if He has told you to look into the older manuscripts.

Thanks for caring and sharing. I will ask Him what more He wanted me to learn from your post.

Oh, yes, I do believe that God oversaw the NKJV so that enough of His truth was there to be able to overcome man's pollution of it.

The first time the Holy Spirit spoke through my mouth a prophetic utterance, it was a complete surprise to me and I learned as much from it as the listeners.

 

[RevRo]

what I was disagreeing with is the first sentence, it is that first sentence that gets many hung up. God's love is never conditional on anything. Our living in that love, dwelling in it, fully realizing it in our lives, does have conditions. They are two different things and where you explained that, the first sentence is where many people stop reading. It is an interesting phenomina (don't know how to spell it) people tend to read the first sentence and skip everything else. That is why our first sentence, our topic sentence if you will, needs to be so well thought out. The way you wrote that, it can be twisted and manipulated and otherwise revised to mean anything we want it to mean, if we don't read further, and read in context.

consider this, Ozell can't even write in paragraph form, he is too afraid that he will be held accountable for what he says, to say anything at all. So he keeps things at one short sentence and nothing more. He has equally demonstrated a lack of ability or willingness (not sure which) to read complete paragraphs for meaning. Therefore if he reads your topic sentence and stops, he gets the idea that God's love is conditional, he is happy, and walks off content that he convinced you of lies.

Sorry if that offended you, it was a way of trying to force people like Ozell to put forth the effort to actually read the text.

Tread in the love of God lightly here as Ozell (whom you seem to have a bone of contention with) is causing you to post in an unloving manner. I see Ozell as one who is trying to fellowship in love and he see the truth a little differently than the New Covenant in Christ's blood requires.

No, you have not offended me, only caused me to bring you to the throne of Grace to show you the difference between trying to 'force' someone (which God never does) into doing what you want, and showing them the truth in LOVE.

 

[groktruth]

The God of conditions destroyeth the Perfect and the wicked

Job 9:22 This is one thing, therefore I said it, He destroyeth the perfect and the wicked.


why would the God of unconditional love destroyeth?

A cattleman who unconditionally loves his herd, upon finding it seriously infected with mad cow disease, destroys it. Sadly.

 

[groktruth]

read the conditions from Paul

Paul said follow peace with all men, and holiness this is a condition

Heb 12:14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:

because if you don't you shalll not see the Lord

Bur aren't these conditions for salvation? Are we not called to rightly divide love and salvation?

I have more problems with the passages that describe God laughing at those who have rejected Him, but even there I can see God threatening such a response, in the hopes that the warning will instill the fear of Him in the hearts of those He loves. He wants all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. Perhaps He even creates Hell and the lake of fire so that we have even more reason to choose Him, which is our life. Pretty gracious love, if you ask me. Who would want to spend eternity with someone who only decided to be with them, because the alternative was hell or the lake of fire?

 

[groktruth]

First let me say that the word in I cor. 13 where it says, love is not rude, really means shame, it is generally used for sexual referrences but is not limited to sexual activity. So when you say, "honestly with their shameful works" the idea is solid, but in God's love, love removes that shame...just wanted to throw that beautiful part of love in there.

As to the importance. Love sums up all the law and the prophets according to scripture. If we don't understand love, we can't understand the law or the prophets, which means nothing God did, does, commands, makes any sense. Grasping God's unconditional love, is about grasping a glimpse, small though it may be, of who God really is and why, He longs to have you love Him.

So, we ought to pray to be like Him, to love unconditionally? To seek His face, because when we see Him, we will become like Him? To love (even) our enemies?

Go, girl!