Thanks, Catherine! You are one of my favourites, you show a lot of compassion, good sense and grace.
Mutual.
I wish you ever success too, in your recovery.
Thank you. Sadly I have had to accept that there will be no recovery for me, this side of eternity. However, as long as I can survive somehow, and help others to do more than survive, that is enough.
I know you didnt just mean "belief" as religious things! And I know what it is to lose belief, it seemed like the ground dissolved under me, nothing was good or decent or nice or anything anywhere ever again. I turned on my family and my ever loyal boyfriend; i turned on myself too.
Been there .... t shirt.
You are probably the only person here who knows, as I know, what it is to lose everything, by losing belief in everything. It is certainly not easy.
Well not to make this into something thats not the forum topic.
I am sure you wont attach yourself to something that you dont think is real.
I never thought theists believe what they know to be false. Its about what they believe to be true.
Then I see that all of the thousands and thousands of faiths and subdivisions of same are all the one true one, and i get suspicious.
Fair enough. Suspicion is good.
However, do you get suspicious of evolution, because there are thousands of species, and millions of sub species? If not, why not?
Here is how I see it (and nobody has to agree, of course). First, for the moment, assume God. Then consider; in a world with 10,000 different types of butterfly, why would God only want one kind of faith? Why would that make sense? Profligacy of variety on the one hand, stilted uniformity on the other.
If nature teaches us anything, it is that God delights in diversity. Which means if we then look at those thousands and thousands of faiths and subdivisions, we imagine God admiring them, as he admires the butterflies. If we were all the same, perhaps he would get a shade bored; as it is, he can look out for rare species, and take great joy when he finds them. Or he can see the more common ones, and delight in their great numbers.
Then, with this kind of God, think of our position. I am a Christian, a member of a faith which has historically been elitist, intolerant and imperialist, and has defined its Deity as that stilted, uniformity loving kind of God, willing even to destroy in order to retain a single, pure form of worship. Is this intolerance of diversity actually of God, or is it a reflection of man's intolerance? A projection, in other words.
Recognising this as projection (as indeed is much that is said of God in the Old Testament in particular) Does it make sense for me to think that this is true of the actual God revealed in Christ himself. If the Old Testament got it right, why did Christ have to come at all? Is this elitism a
necessary part of my faith, or does it make sense for me to see that elitism as a cultural, rather than spiritual, aspect of my faith, and therefore NOT necessary, in any way. And having found this, intolerance changes to tolerance, as we get to know other people and other cultures better. This doesn't mean I have to change what I believe, I only need to accept that we are not all called to the same life, or the same faith.
So I have moved to accepting that, while there may only be one mountain, there are many paths up that mountain, and another one for the Buddhists around the foothills. We each have a different journey to make, including those who do not know they are climbing a mountain at all. Nonetheless that is what we are all doing, whoever we are, whatever our faith, and whether we even know we have a faith or not.
This approach gets me in trouble with those who retain the outdated elitist view of our faith, but if they start to complain, I ask them for the Scripture reference that says that every person of every faith other than Christianity is necessarily damned. (To save you going to look for it, I can assure you there is no such Scripture.) Then I offer them these verses:
When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry, and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in. I needed clothes and you clothed me. I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'
Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'
The King will reply. 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'
Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me. ... For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink. I was a stranger and you did not invite me in. I needed clothes and you did not clothe me. I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'
They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or sick or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'
He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'
Matthew 25:31-45
Forget the theology, forget the dogma, forget the divisions. THIS is the only gospel that matters, and it applies to every single person on the face of the earth. It applies to theists and atheists. It applies to heathen and believers. It applies to men, women and children, gay and straight, black and white, rich and poor. It is for all people, in all time. Either our faith is universal, in the sense of applying to all people, or it is nothing. But this does not mean that it has to be expressed by all people in the same way as I express my own version of it.
I know the atheists won't like me talking like this, but I can't talk any other way. I cannot put God on and off like a coat, depending on who I talk to, just as they can't put evolution, the Big Bang, gravity etc to one side, and speak as if they sometimes apply, sometimes don't. All I can do is to say that all people are the same, and all people have the same journey to make. There are not two species of human being, only one.
Elitism is morally repugnant, contrary to these words of Christ and a disgrace to our faith. It is way past time to get rid of it.
The proof is in the butterflies.
(Sorry this got a bit long. Not trying to evangelise, because that is not what I do. Only trying to explain.
)
The Christian Faith according to Ding Dong:I actually know several Christians who believe that.
