That Boat Don't Float!!

[BananaSlug]

Not for survival. For motivation to get out of bed in the morning. No doubt that person lying curled up in his bed without belief could survive for a couple of very unhappy weeks, perhaps longer, but he would certainly wish to die.

How so? Why do you need a belief to get out of bed in the morning or is this just your personal opinion? I mean, I didn't realize that you have met every person on the planet and can make such an absolute statement.

Ok, here is how I know all of this stuff. I have complex post traumatic stress disorder, and one of the features of this is that the person who has it loses all sustaining beliefs. I have been there, and I know what it is like, and I know that a person without any beliefs cannot survive.

PTSD is a serious illness. Comparing yourself to something without beliefs but does not have PTSD doesn't work.
PTSD/no belief =/= no PTSD/no belief

I am not talking religious belief; I am talking everything. Belief in your family, your friends, your religion; even your own existence and your own personal identity. This is not a trivial thing to deal with. If you lose your sense of self, you become alone in the universe.

We like to call that depression and it is a psychological illness that is not related to belief. I suffer from severe anxiety and it has nothing to do with beliefs, it's all brain chemicals.

In Christian terms, you are in hell. In psychological terms, you experience a state of extreme dissociation from which it is very, very difficult to return.

Such absolute statements. It is not a good idea to take your personal experiences and make absolute statements about everybody else.

Trauma disconnects us from one another and from everything we know and believe in. It leads us to a place in which it is possible to survive, but only just.

No everybody suffers from trauma and not everybody who does needs belief to survive it.

If other people here have not been to this place, and therefore feel authorised to deride what I say, then all I can say is, you do not understand, and I actually thank God for that. I hope you never do.

I am not trying to deride you. I am merely stating it is a fallacy to take your personal experience and apply to to everybody else.

It really doesn't matter whether other people understand this or not. It is no less true. We all have to believe in something. In this narcissistic age, usually the first god is our own self.

Again, your personal experience does not apply to everybody.

 

[Hespera]

How so? Why do you need a belief to get out of bed in the morning or is this just your personal opinion? I mean, I didn't realize that you have met every person on the planet and can make such an absolute statement.



PTSD is a serious illness. Comparing yourself to something without beliefs but does not have PTSD doesn't work.
PTSD/no belief =/= no PTSD/no belief




We like to call that depression and it is a psychological illness that is not related to belief. I suffer from severe anxiety and it has nothing to do with beliefs, it's all brain chemicals.



Such absolute statements. It is not a good idea to take your personal experiences and make absolute statements about everybody else.



No everybody suffers from trauma and not everybody who does needs belief to survive it.



I am not trying to deride you. I am merely stating it is a fallacy to take your personal experience and apply to to everybody else.



Again, your personal experience does not apply to everybody.

I dont have any "beliefs' as the theists think of them, and its never been a problem for me. Why should it be? i dont think superstition helps anyone.

i am in the process of recovering from ptsd myself. its a long difficult haul.

I know what is meant by losing sustaining belief in everything. I drove away my best friends..etc.

When I am done with this I hope to be back where i was when I started, not to have attached myself to something that makes no sense and isnt even real.

That kind of "sustaining belief' is unsustainable for me.

 

[SkyWriting]

I'll ask again, do you have any evidence showing that the facts concerning a lack of hyperspeciation and genetic bottlenecks amongst all land animals 4,000 years ago were derived from "fudged numbers" or not? Do you have any evidence that all the facts from archaeology, paleontology and geology showing there was no flood 4,000 years ago were derived from "fudged numbers" or not?

I'm not looking for confirmation data for a flood 4000 years ago.
It's not part of my premise.

 

[SkyWriting]

According to Genesis

To cover the mountains you need more than 29,000 feet of rain. That means it needed to rain about 725 feet per day or about 30 feet per hour or about 6 inches per minute. Unless you get a lot of water coming from the fountains of the great deep of course. And you are saying this all happened with no waves?

I'm saying God can control the conditions the Ark encountered as other scripture indicates. It would be odd to design the Ark, tell your chosen people to get on board, pick the animals needed to repopulate the world, have them enter the Ark and fall asleep, then send harmonic wave action to crack the vessel in half. A good movie maybe.

And I really don't know the geology of the entire earth before the flood. Before the "fountains of the deep " were broken up along with the rest of the earths crust, the highest mountain may have been 100 feet. Or perhaps sea level was higher, or land level was lower. If you have pre-flood information on what size the highest mountain was at the time, along with sea level measurements, we could come up with some possible rainfall numbers.

 

[SkyWriting]

Anyway -- as pertains your point -- let me ask you this:

In your opinion, did the Ark even get wet?.

I checked into this. There is not direct mention on rain falling in the ark. As well as no wind, waves, or storms. But God did direct Noah to build a roof over it. That was likely for rain, and I wouldn't want to be drinking the sea water that year. And the darkness would help the animals hibernate as well. I imagine it did get rained on.

 

[Levopoly]

I checked into this. There is not direct mention on rain falling in the ark. As well as no wind, waves, or storms. But God did direct Noah to build a roof over it. That was likely for rain, and I wouldn't want to be drinking the sea water that year. And the darkness would help the animals hibernate as well. I imagine it did get rained on.

Key word there is "Imagine"

TL;DR version of this thread, and all threads about Noah's mythical ark is as follows:

"Well it wasn't really a boat, it just needed to float

Well if previous examples have shown ships of that size sinking in storms and severe weather, then God stopped rain, waves, wind and lightning from striking the boat!

God didn't actually take all the species onto the boat, but "kinds"

Animals that don't hibernate in nature hibernate in the ark

People can live for over five centuries, just not in modern times

ATHEISM MEANS YOU HAVE FAITH IN A GOD LOLOLOL"

Remember, ignore all contradictory evidence!

 

[SkyWriting]

When I am done with this I hope to be back where i was when I started, not to have attached myself to something that makes no sense and isnt even real.That kind of "sustaining belief' is unsustainable for me.

God is real and active in my life. I mean an active part of it. That wasn't always the case, and it certainly did not make sense ahead of time. But I did get a gift from God called ....I forget what it's called....not "perception" but something close.

In secular terms, it a B.S. meter. And when people said there was not God and attempted to justify it, the BS meter goes off and you can tell they are just lying to themselves. The get all blustery, and flustered, and say something like.....BESIDES....my favorite dog Dusty died in my arms...what kind of God would let that happen!

So really, it's not logic and sense that is getting in the way....it's some emotional block they are throwing up because of some pain in their life they endured. So they get mad at God and insist He's not real at the same time.

And then there are the "Scientists". THAT's when the BS Meter goes off the charts as they "Scientifically prove" that God can't exist, or that the Bible is wrong, or that we don't need God anymore to explain anything so therefore God must have been in our imagination all along.

The odd thing is.....if the Bible is wrong then just ignore it.
I ignore the Catholic Church and all it's methods and all it's leaders. I just think the whole organization is wrong in it's operation. Always have. But most of it's people are great so I just ignore the church itself and live & let live. Whatever floats your boat.

 

[SkyWriting]

You are making this up as you go along, aren't you?

Just following the story as it's written.
Other parts of the Bible show God can control the weather, storms, and waves.

To say that God could not control the wind and the waves against the Ark
within the same story where He causes the worldwide flood waters
and in the same Bible where Jesus calms the wind and waves
would be disingenuous to the story.

 

[Hespera]

I'm saying God can control the conditions the Ark encountered as other scripture indicates. It would be odd to design the Ark, tell your chosen people to get on board, pick the animals needed to repopulate the world, have them enter the Ark and fall asleep, then send harmonic wave action to crack the vessel in half. A good movie maybe.

And I really don't know the geology of the entire earth before the flood. Before the "fountains of the deep " were broken up along with the rest of the earths crust, the highest mountain may have been 100 feet. Or perhaps sea level was higher, or land level was lower. If you have pre-flood information on what size the highest mountain was at the time, along with sea level measurements, we could come up with some possible rainfall numbers.

We will agree with you that you dont know geology.

There are so many and such good ways to show that this model, like your "100 ft" mountain is just completely incompatible with the facts on the ground.

But here is just one very easy one. The ice in Antarctica is over a hundred thousand years old, It shows distinct annual layers, dating one after another, to long long before any "flood". The rock that the ice is resting on contains fossils of large reptiles and tropical vegetation.

If a "god" poofed all this into place, as some think he did, in its present condition, ie with tropical reptiles in the polar regions, a seabed in Kansas,
ancient worn down mountains with their sediment spread hundreds of miles away by rivers that no longer exist etc etc etc...

IF he did he sure found a weird way to do it. The more you know the more obvious it is the Bible does not accurately describe what happened. How weird is that?

(how do you know, btw, that your "fountains of the deep" dont simply refer to ordinary springs that started flowing more water? You'd think Noah would of noticed mr brown's "hydroplate theory" water shooting miles high and kinda mentioned it later. We hold our breath hoping you are not a hydroplate guy.

 

[SkyWriting]

Such absolute statements. It is not a good idea to take your personal experiences and make absolute statements about everybody else.

Sometimes it is a good idea, and sometimes it isn't.
And who can say when we should and when we shouldn't?

 

[Hespera]

Just following the story as it's written.
Other parts of the Bible show God can control the weather, storms, and waves.

To say that God could not control the wind and the waves against the Ark
within the same story where He causes the worldwide flood waters
and in the same Bible where Jesus calms the wind and waves
would be disingenuous to the story.

do you just follow the story where it says that god is a stone and jesus is a lamb? that the hills are going to clap their hands?


"disingenuous" means
1. Not straightforward or candid; insincere or calculating:

2. Pretending to be unaware or unsophisticated; faux-naïf.

I wonder if that is really what you intend to say.

 

[SkyWriting]

People do not continue to think or have awareness after death. That is the whole point of being dead. However, where my soul goes at that point is pretty well immaterial to me. I don't much care, because this decision is not mine to make.If God wants me to spend eternity in hell, then so be it; I have spent much of my life in hell, so it holds no fears for me. And if he allows me to spend it with him, then fine. I really don't much mind.My faith is not based on getting an eternal reward. That would be rather mercenary, don't you think? To illustrate this, compare my relationship with my daughter. This is a relationship of mutual love and respect. If I thought for even one moment that my daughter only loves me because I will one day die and leave her a nice inheritance, what kind of daughter would she then be? What I have to give her when I die is completely irrelevant to who we are to one another. Nice if it happens (for her), but irrelevant. It is the same with me and God. Who we are to one another is about love and relationship. It is not about what I get as my reward when I finally kick the bucket.

When you talk about your soul, you speak as if you have one that will persist after you die. And a lot of "eternal" talk as if you, as a person of some type, will persist.

And then you mention some reward system. Another indicator that you'll persist after death. If your not going to be aware or thinking after death, then there is no need to think any spiritual thoughts at all. All there is, is what you have now, and when you die, it ends.

Jesus didn't offer any rewards to his followers other than to be reunited with the Father after death. They were really ticked off about that. The Messiah was SUPPOSED to raise up Israel so they could finally get even with all their oppressors and they could get all their land back. It would be like being in Heaven for them to rule over all those groups that held them down for so long.

But Jesus said they wouldn't be getting any treasures on earth. They just get to die, leave this earth, and all their "treasure" will be in Heaven instead. Not on this earth. So my point to you is, what you really treasure here on Earth, your relationship with your daughter, is the one treasure that you can keep after your earthly death. Those are the treasures He was talking about.

 

[SkyWriting]

do you just follow the story where it says that god is a stone and jesus is a lamb? that the hills are going to clap their hands?
"disingenuous" means
1. Not straightforward or candid; insincere or calculating:
2. Pretending to be unaware or unsophisticated; faux-naïf.
I wonder if that is really what you intend to say.

Does that pertain to the story of the flood? I see how it might.
If you see a connection, I'm interested in hearing your ideas.

Yes, that's the right word.

 

[Hespera]

God is real and active in my life. I mean an active part of it. That wasn't always the case, and it certainly did not make sense ahead of time. But I did get a gift from God called ....I forget what it's called....not "perception" but something close.

In secular terms, it a B.S. meter. And when people said there was not God and attempted to justify it, the BS meter goes off and you can tell they are just lying to themselves. The get all blustery, and flustered, and say something like.....BESIDES....my favorite dog Dusty died in my arms...what kind of God would let that happen!

So really, it's not logic and sense that is getting in the way....it's some emotional block they are throwing up because of some pain in their life they endured. So they get mad at God and insist He's not real at the same time.

And then there are the "Scientists". THAT's when the BS Meter goes off the charts as they "Scientifically prove" that God can't exist, or that the Bible is wrong, or that we don't need God anymore to explain anything so therefore God must have been in our imagination all along.

The odd thing is.....if the Bible is wrong then just ignore it.
I ignore the Catholic Church and all it's methods and all it's leaders. I just think the whole organization is wrong in it's operation. Always have. But most of it's people are great so I just ignore the church itself and live & let live. Whatever floats your boat.

I will accept that you think a god is real and active in your life. The LDS people, the catholics, the moslems and probably every last primitive tribe on earth.... same thing.

As for your BS meter, it is not very active if it cant detect the utter BS in the flood story.

You may be able to find people who act as you say in relation to their belief that there is no god; you wont get that from me or anyone else with any sophistication. It SOUNDS a lot like what i hear from people who cant explain why they believe in their god. Some, not all.


'So really, it's not logic and sense that is getting in the way....it's some emotional block they are throwing up because of some pain in their life they endured. So they get mad at God and insist He's not real at the same time."

I find logic and good sense to be very helpful to me. it stands in the way of falling for Nigerian scams, for example.

Perhaps you found a person who fits your description, but they must be pretty rare, i sure never did. And they must be real stupid too.

If by some chance you think that accurately describes your average atheist, let me assure you that you got that one completely wrong.


here is one that alerts my BS meter..."And then there are the "Scientists". THAT's when the BS Meter goes off the charts as they "Scientifically prove" that God can't exist, or that the Bible is wrong, or that we don't need God anymore to explain anything so therefore God must have been in our imagination all along.


First off, putting "scientists" in quotation marks. Unless of course, you mean some utter fake who is not a scientist at all and who DOES claim to be able to "scientifically prove" that no god exists. All the scientists on earth would join you in saying that is bs.

Of course nobody can prove that. No gift of god meter is needed to notice it. Why even mention such childish nonsense.

So please explain if you mean a few stupid fakes think they can disprove god or if you think this is characteristic of atheists and scientists.

Not sure what you mean by " odd thing is... ignore it"

But basically, I do ignore the bible. Its pretty boring, and I know as much as I care to about it. Read it thru twice, there is some nice poetry and good stories, and a bit of sound advice and wisdom, tho i got more and better from my own culture and dont think I need that.

 

[SkyWriting]

1. We will agree with you that you dont know geology.

2. The ice in Antarctica is over a hundred thousand years old, It shows distinct annual layers, dating one after another, to long long before any "flood". The rock that the ice is resting on contains fossils of large reptiles and tropical vegetation.

3. If a "god" poofed all this into place, as some think he did, in its present condition, ie with tropical reptiles in the polar regions, a seabed in Kansas,
ancient worn down mountains with their sediment spread hundreds of miles away by rivers that no longer exist etc etc etc... IF he did he sure found a weird way to do it.

4.The more you know the more obvious it is the Bible does not accurately describe what happened. How weird is that?

5. (how do you know, btw, that your "fountains of the deep" dont simply refer to ordinary springs that started flowing more water? You'd think Noah would of noticed mr brown's "hydroplate theory" water shooting miles high and kinda mentioned it later. We hold our breath hoping you are not a hydroplate guy.

1. I don't know how high the mountains were or what the sea level was before the Flood happened.

2. I don't know how much, if any, of the ice melted during the flood. Dating ice layers is a difficult task. Figuring out how they get sequenced is a monumental task.

3. I'm not aware of any "poofing".

4. Lots of very weird people make statements as if they were geology, biology, and history experts, that's for sure.

5. We know the "fountains of the deep" referred to were "Broken up" and no longer exist. Anyone who defines them past that is speaking as conjecture. Mr. Brown included.

 

[_JJM]

The flood story is a childrens story that is believed by some adults who are not being very adult, in fact they are being decidedly childish.
The damage that has been done to them should be punishable.

Once again, timeless words of wisdom from Ding Dong.

 

[SkyWriting]

1. I will accept that you think a god is real and active in your life. The LDS people, the catholics, the moslems and probably every last primitive tribe on earth.... same thing.

2. As for your BS meter, it is not very active if it cant detect the utter BS in the flood story.

3. You may be able to find people who act as you say in relation to their belief that there is no god; you wont get that from me or anyone else with any sophistication. It SOUNDS a lot like what i hear from people who cant explain why they believe in their god. Some, not all.

4. I find logic and good sense to be very helpful to me. it stands in the way of falling for Nigerian scams, for example.

5. Perhaps you found a person who fits your description, but they must be pretty rare, i sure never did. And they must be real stupid too.If by some chance you think that accurately describes your average atheist, let me assure you that you got that one completely wrong.

6. So please explain if you mean a few stupid fakes think they can disprove god or if you think this is characteristic of atheists and scientists.

7. Not sure what you mean by " odd thing is... ignore it" But basically, I do ignore the bible. Its pretty boring, and I know as much as I care to about it. Read it thru twice, there is some nice poetry and good stories, and a bit of sound advice and wisdom, tho i got more and better from my own culture and dont think I need that.

1. Of course, they all have the same access to God.

2. The BS meter notes self serving ideas, not "hard to swallow" stories.

3. So you place yourself among the sophisticated. I can see that.

4. "Good Sense" is a judgment call by other people on your actions. Its not something you can evaluate for yourself.

5. I'm only describing the person I've described. There is no "average" anybody.

6. I mean that there are ten of thousands of scientists who are passionately obsessed with disproving all concepts associated with God and Religion and replacing them with the religion of "Science." This presentation of Science BS is when my meter first went off in High School and I started searching for a better explanation for the origin of humans.
Ahh...just remembered...Discernment Meter.

7. You call this: Christian Forums > Society > Society > Physical & Life Sciences > Creation & Evolution > That Boat Don't Float!! ignoring the Bible?
You have an unusual way of ignoring things.

 

[SkyWriting]

The flood story is a childrens story that is believed by some adults who are not being very adult, in fact they are being decidedly childish. The damage that has been done to them should be punishable.

Assuming Jesus lived, and assuming we have his ideas correctly worded:
Then such a stand would be clearly wrong.

 

[_JJM]

Yes and every one of them true, unless anyone can show otherwise that is.

Ding Dong and I are heading up an expedition to Ararat.

 

[AV1611VET]

Ding Dong and I are heading up an expedition to Ararat.

Be sure to take plenty of Hostess Ding Dongs with you!

You get a big delight in every bite!