Infused vs. Imputed

[Athanasias]

If our flesh and spirit are both made good at regeneration (and Jesus says no one is good but God alone) why would Catholics need Purgatory?

Because Catholic utilize free will to Disobey God and choose to do bad and stain our souls.

 

[Athanasias]

God doesn't need our good works, but our neighbor does. It's how God provides daily bread for everyone.

God sanctifies us not for our own sake, but for the sake of our neighbor. Common grace.

So what if your declared righteous legally and you still don't care about your neighbor after all why should I care for I am saved an nothing I do even with Christ grace is good enough anyway? Didn't Jesus say we would be judged on that???

 

[Tangible]

For the redeemed, only the good works done by God through us have any merit, but even that merit is not considered in our justification. The only perfect, meritorious works ever done that are effective for our justification were done by Jesus Christ.

 

[Athanasias]

For the redeemed, only the good works done by God through us have any merit, but even that merit is not considered in our justification. The only perfect, meritorious works ever done that are effective for our justification were done by Jesus Christ.

You seem so close to the Catholic position. The first part we would agree with you on! Only works done in Christ grace(ie God working through us) do merit things. Amen!

The second part though makes no sense as you seem to dissect the meritoriousness of the actions and justification. If it is God that works in us to will and do as Paul says in Philippians 2:12-13 and its his grace and as you admitted this gives merits becasue it is God and his grace then why is it not applied to justification? After all its God's grace and working in us not ourselves that we can boast like the Pelagains did which the Catholic church condemned??

I would I dissagree with you politely because I beleive Paul would and Jesus would and John would and James would and Peter would.

 

[Tangible]

Well, to be honest, I highly doubt that we're going to come to any kind of substantive agreement here since those vastly more qualified than you or I have been unable to do so while remaining true to their own confessions or without playing games with their definitions of terms.

Probably the best we are going to do here is to hone each other's apologetics skills and agree to disagree - but surely we can have some fun along the way.

 

[MrPolo]

If our flesh and spirit are both made good at regeneration (and Jesus says no one is good but God alone) why would Catholics need Purgatory?

If someone died immediately after baptism, presumably he would not go to Purgatory. But after that, we retain our imperfect wills in this age, and are prone to sinning. To quote Paul, "not that we have been made perfect but we press onward."

I always cite the parable of the talents as a superb microcosm of what is going on. In the parable, the master gives a gift to the 3 servants (in the form of talents in the parable). The servant then goes forth and utilizes the gift to do things he could not have done without the gift. The grace we receive is sufficient, but in our imperfect wills of this age, we do not always utilize it to the fullest. Some people bury the gift like the third guy in the parable. This is what we do when we sin.

I would argue that the spiritual improvements you or I make, or the greatest examples of sainthood like the monastics or those who sacrifice their lives for others do so by grace---which indeed does sanctify and is the cause of the greater and greater holiness in these servants.

Purgatory is simply the final mercy of God, the final stage of sanctification, which removes any remaining imperfection which is incompatible with a whole encounter with God.

 

[psalms 91]

Actually there are good people by Gods grace:

"News of this came to the ears of the church in Jerusalem, and they sent Barnabas to Antioch.
[23] When he came and saw the grace of God, he was glad; and he exhorted them all to remain faithful to the Lord with steadfast purpose;
[24] for he was a good man, full of the Holy Spirit and of faith(Acts 11:22-24)


Sounds like he is made good and regenerate to me.

Again, do you sin? If not the bible has a word for that, if so thyen how can your flesh be sanctified? I am sure that God does not regard sin as righteous

 

[IreneAdler]

why does continuation of sin prove the point? been pondering that for a couple pages...

 

[psalms 91]

Because it was brought up when I claimed a seperation of flesh soul and spirit that they believed that all are sanctified and not apart. I know that God is a triune being as we are because we are made in His image and also because all through the New Testament it talks about the flesh, it talks of the soul and it talks of the spirit and shows that they are all different. Now if it is the same as was claimed then I submit that there is a problemm with anything being sanctified that still sins. Paul in Romans makes it very clear that there is a war going on in all of us and that war is between spirit and flesh. Tio be a victorious Christian the flesh must be crucied and allow Christ to be Lord and Saviour

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

Is this accurate:

Infused Righteousness - Christ's work transforms the child of God, making him/her righteous in actuality.

Imputed Righteousness - Christ's work does not transform the child of God. God only saves anyone because He "sees Jesus" instead of a filthy sinner.

No. The term ellogeo is simply a compound of en (in, on, by, denoting position) and logos (word) which means that imputed righteous means CALLING and MAKING him righteous.

The dichotomy that u have made is false. It is not one or the other . . . IMO it is BOTH AND. Imputed righteousness IS infused. Like Grace and Mercy being two sides of the same coin. Same here. We are UNITED with Christ AND IMPUTED with His righteousness . . . tho I would say that the imputation is instant and that infusion is gradual to be FINALLY completed on the day of Christ's return for those who are His.

 

[IreneAdler]

why does continuation of sin prove the point? been pondering that for a couple pages...

Because it was brought up when I claimed a seperation of flesh soul and spirit that they believed that all are sanctified and not apart. I know that God is a triune being as we are because we are made in His image and also because all through the New Testament it talks about the flesh, it talks of the soul and it talks of the spirit and shows that they are all different. Now if it is the same as was claimed then I submit that there is a problemm with anything being sanctified that still sins. Paul in Romans makes it very clear that there is a war going on in all of us and that war is between spirit and flesh. Tio be a victorious Christian the flesh must be crucied and allow Christ to be Lord and Saviour

I think that the more you're around God... i.e. the more in relationship (active relationship... not just works) the more you're gonna act like Him. Same as if I'm around someone more I'm going to pick up their habits. It's human nature to act like those you're involved with. You're involved with God you're like God... not hard. Will you be just like God. No. Never here. Cause you're not God. This is my understanding of "sanctification". But please don't confuse it with the works cause the behavior to stick... no no... the relationship causes the behavior.

 

[Athanasias]

Again, do you sin? If not the bible has a word for that, if so thyen how can your flesh be sanctified? I am sure that God does not regard sin as righteous

You can have sanctified flesh and commit sin through free will. Adam and Eve is a great example of that as before they fell by choice they were sinless.

When you do sin then you loose that sanctification and need to have it restored by Gods grace in confession. But you can be sanctified and still commit sin we see it in the bible all the time. St. Paul Tells his congregation he prays for them to be wholly sanctified and yet they committed sins. St. Paul in 1 Cor 6:9-11 says that they have been sanctified and yet they commit sins. Its called free will.

 

[psalms 91]

I think that the more you're around God... i.e. the more in relationship (active relationship... not just works) the more you're gonna act like Him. Same as if I'm around someone more I'm going to pick up their habits. It's human nature to act like those you're involved with. You're involved with God you're like God... not hard. Will you be just like God. No. Never here. Cause you're not God. This is my understanding of "sanctification". But please don't confuse it with the works cause the behavior to stick... no no... the relationship causes the behavior.

Yes, I can agree with this.

 

[IreneAdler]

(were they sinless? they were disobedient... wouldn't being disobedient to the Lord of all creation be considered sin? lol)

 

[Athanasias]

Well, to be honest, I highly doubt that we're going to come to any kind of substantive agreement here since those vastly more qualified than you or I have been unable to do so while remaining true to their own confessions or without playing games with their definitions of terms.

Probably the best we are going to do here is to hone each other's apologetics skills and agree to disagree - but surely we can have some fun along the way.

I don't know about that. Through our own private discussions we have come close as we have just seen. And our two religions have come awful close to finding out we are not so far apart on the issue of justification as we once though we were as the joint declaration on justification shows us. I have hope that we will be united on this issue in the future and I even maybe eventually on the issue of the Eucharist and priesthood and be able to share table fellowship with yall someday. It is always fun though. God bless you!

 

[psalms 91]

You can have sanctified flesh and commit sin through free will. Adam and Eve is a great example of that as before they fell by choice they were sinless.

When you do sin then you loose that sanctification and need to have it restored by Gods grace in confession. But you can be sanctified and still commit sin we see it in the bible all the time. St. Paul Tells his congregation he prays for them to be wholly sanctified and yet they committed sins. St. Paul in 1 Cor 6:9-11 says that they have been sanctified and yet they commit sins. Its called free will.

Free will I agree with, I also understand sinning and being restored because of repentance and being washed in the blood but there is also an area where we continue with the same sin and are making no effort to get better and that ios presumptive sin and for that there is no forgiveness until you stop doing it. I think we are closer to agreement than not but sometimes the terms can get in the way.

 

[psalms 91]

(were they sinless? they were disobedient... wouldn't being disobedient to the Lord of all creation be considered sin? lol)

Of course it is sin. That is why it is so important to be of the world but not in it. We must keep our spiritual eyes and ears open to hear and see what Jesus would have us to, that is the Rhema word of God coming down fresh to all who will but listen to hear it and not be blind to the spirit.

 

[IreneAdler]

but then what was the tree? Christ taught us we can sin by thought... lol

 

[psalms 91]

The trewe is where the flesh is crucified. Every Christian must walk in the garden of Gestheme and firght that fighht and then we must walk to the cross and crucify the flesh on it. Many Christians are still in the garden and never make it to the cross. In order to be more like Christ we must, allow Him to be our head and not do our own thing and then wonder why God is not blessing it.

 

[IreneAdler]

so explain to me how if sin can be thought, and Adam and Chava had thought of sin before they ate... tell me what the tree did and why it was important