question of imputation

[fhansen]

The small things will not prevent you from being saved.

This is true, while the big things can.

 

[RandyPNW]

I know that God told Israel they were given a Law to keep "for all their generations. And I know that Christ indicated that the universe would have to pass away before the standards of the Law were relaxed. I also know that Paul said he made himself a slave to God's Law. And I know that the Apostle John said that the OT Law was still a relevant commandment.

At the same time we know that the OT temple was destroyed permanently, indicating that the OT Law could no longer be followed. The veil had been torn from the top down, indicating that God Himself had torn it asunder. And the writer of Hebrews made it clear that the OT Law was part of an old covenant, now being replaced by the New Covenant of Christ. How are we to make sense of all these things?

1 John 2.7 Dear friends, I am not writing you a new command but an old one, which you have had since the beginning. This old command is the message you have heard. 8 Yet I am writing you a new command; its truth is seen in him and in you, because the darkness is passing and the true light is already shining.

It's quite simple really. The Law was God's eternal testimony to the fact Man cannot be justified apart from the righteousness and grace of Christ. Israel practiced that under the Old Covenant, and it remains true under the New Covenant, now that Christ has fulfilled his mission.

We do not follow the Law under the Old Covenant, but we follow God's Law as fulfilled in the righteousness of Christ, which operates by grace. The commandments Christ now gives us we can do without worrying that our sins disqualify us. In choosing to live by Christ our sins are forgiven.

This "Law" is still true for "all of Israel's generations," though it was always intended to end up being lived by the righteousness of Christ. The provision for redemption, which fell short of Eternal Life, is now provided by Christ, meaning that OT provisions for sin no longer need to be applied.

When Paul had his mind on God's Law, he was focused upon how that is fulfilled in the perfection of Christ, meaning that he himself fell short, even as the Law of Moses had taught. Paul's hope was in Grace, even as the Law appeared to condemn his own insufficient record of righteousness.

Christ indicated that God's word and Law are eternal, and that the transient nature of the universe could not be diminished or perish unless the rest of God's Law remained true as well, which finds its fulfillment in the righteousness of Christ. So what maintains the stability of the universe is the surety of God's Word as established in the righteousness of Christ, who has saved the preeminent creature on earth, namely Man.

It is not the practice of the Law under the Old Covenant that remains following Christ's death. Christ applied the Law in its OT form only while the temple still stood and that system remained in place, looking forward to Christ's redemptive death.

But Christ maintained that he had to come to "fulfill" that Law, so that the universe and the earth could be fulfilled, as well. And it was fulfilled in his display of perfect righteousness as a means of his granting forgiveness for those who were imperfect and who have abused him.

Matt 5.17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished."

Finally, let me say that the Law of God and the Word of God are eternal standards of the holy God. What God displayed as "holy" in the OT remains true under the New Covenant, although the difference is that what Israel practiced as a form of temporary redemption now has been acted out in Christ's redemption.

The Moral Law of God remains true for Man for all eternity. This Law of God remains true for all time. What does not need to be practiced anymore is faith that eternal redemption has yet to come.

 

[Jan001]

If you hope to be perfect on the day of your death, you're engaging in wishful thinking. It's best to simply be found pursuing God the best you can. The small things will not prevent you from being saved.

Paul said his mind is ever on the Law of God, even while knowing he cannot achieve its perfection. And so, we pursue Christ as the basis of our righteousness, which is called "Grace."

Paul did not mean his mind was on doing the requirements of the Old Covenant. Rather, he meant that the Law pointed to Christ's perfection.

I strive to be perfect, as evidenced by my avatar. I doubt very, very much that I will achieve perfection while I am on earth.

To be "perfect" means to be merciful to others like God is merciful to us. We must forgive those who have harmed us.

I agree that Paul did not mean that his mind was on doing the requirements of the Old Covenant.

Jesus was the fulfilment of the Law of Moses. He completed it and ended it by his perfect sacrificial death on the cross. This perfect sacrificial blood offering of himself on the cross also ratified his new and everlasting New Covenant. Romans 10:4

 

[Jan001]

I know that God told Israel they were given a Law to keep "for all their generations. And I know that Christ indicated that the universe would have to pass away before the standards of the Law were relaxed. I also know that Paul said he made himself a slave to God's Law. And I know that the Apostle John said that the OT Law was still a relevant commandment.

At the same time we know that the OT temple was destroyed permanently, indicating that the OT Law could no longer be followed. The veil had been torn from the top down, indicating that God Himself had torn it asunder. And the writer of Hebrews made it clear that the OT Law was part of an old covenant, now being replaced by the New Covenant of Christ. How are we to make sense of all these things?

"For all their generations" ended when Jesus ratified his new and everlasting covenant by his bloody, sacrificial death on the cross.
Now, there is no religious distinction between Jewish Christians and Greek/Gentile Christians. Galatians 3:28


There was about a 40-year (one generation) transition period allowed by God for all Jews to convert to Christianity. That is why the apostles were told to go preach to their whole known world, which they did within that same time period. Mark 16:14-16, Colossians 1:6, Romans 1:8, 1 Peter 5:9, Acts 2:5


Paul made himself a slave to Christ's Law. Galatians 6:2, Romans 8:2, 1 Corinthians 9:20-22


John meant that the "spirit" of the Law of Moses is always relevant. The "written" Law of Moses is no longer valid. Romans 10:4, Galatians 3:13


The "spirit" of the Law of Moses is what is important. God's Natural (moral) Law was put into force when God created the universe with angels and humans. For example, murder was evil from the beginning of time, not just for the Israelites. Genesis 4:8
All the written laws and statutes of the Law of Moses were required only for the Israelites/Jews and the converts to Judaism. Jesus completed the first covenant (Law of Moses). It is no longer in force. Unfortunately, those practicing Judaism today do not believe this!


The "heaven and earth" of the Jews did pass away just as Jesus prophesied.

"In ancient Hebrew thought, the Jewish temple was seen as a microcosm of creation, representing heaven and earth. It had three compartments that symbolized heaven, earth, and the deep, serving as a model of the cosmos and a place of mediation between God and man.23​

​

The courtyard of the temple represented the cosmic spheres outside the organized cosmos, while the antechamber held representations of lights and food. The veil separated the earthly sphere from the heavenly sphere, where God dwelled.3​

​

Moreover, the temple was considered the epitome of the world, a concentrated form of its essence, and a miniature of the cosmos. It was not just a place where heaven and earth met but was thought to correspond to, represent, or in some sense, be "heaven and earth" in its totality.3​

​

In Jewish tradition, the seventh heaven, known as Araboth, is considered the holiest of the seven heavens because it houses the Throne of God and serves as the realm where God dwells." AI generated​

​

Jesus prophesies that the temple (heaven and earth) of the Jews will be destroyed. Matthew 24:1-2​

​

Jesus prophesies that this heaven and earth will pass away within that very generation. It did, in 70 AD. Matthew 23:36, Matthew 24:34-35​

 

[RandyPNW]

I strive to be perfect, as evidenced by my avatar. I doubt very, very much that I will achieve perfection while I am on earth.

To be "perfect" means to be merciful to others like God is merciful to us. We must forgive those who have harmed us.

I agree that Paul did not mean that his mind was on doing the requirements of the Old Covenant.

Jesus was the fulfilment of the Law of Moses. He completed it and ended it by his perfect sacrificial death on the cross. This perfect sacrificial blood offering of himself on the cross also ratified his new and everlasting New Covenant. Romans 10:4

Yes, and I would add to that the concern some have that we are *only* to fulfill the Law by being "merciful." It isn't just that "love is the fulfillment of the Law" but that true genuine divine love means that we are loving all of the time without an ounce of insincerity.

Of course, that is impossible, but it means that our standards are as high as those of the Law of Moses--only that the infrastructure and temporary nature of the Old Covenant is now fulfilled in our discipleship under Jesus, who has completed all of the work of redemption necessary to bring us Eternal Life.

 

[RandyPNW]

"For all their generations" ended when Jesus ratified his new and everlasting covenant by his bloody, sacrificial death on the cross.
Now, there is no religious distinction between Jewish Christians and Greek/Gentile Christians. Galatians 3:28


There was about a 40-year (one generation) transition period allowed by God for all Jews to convert to Christianity. That is why the apostles were told to go preach to their whole known world, which they did within that same time period. Mark 16:14-16, Colossians 1:6, Romans 1:8, 1 Peter 5:9, Acts 2:5


Paul made himself a slave to Christ's Law. Galatians 6:2, Romans 8:2, 1 Corinthians 9:20-22


John meant that the "spirit" of the Law of Moses is always relevant. The "written" Law of Moses is no longer valid. Romans 10:4, Galatians 3:13


The "spirit" of the Law of Moses is what is important. God's Natural (moral) Law was put into force when God created the universe with angels and humans. For example, murder was evil from the beginning of time, not just for the Israelites. Genesis 4:8
All the written laws and statutes of the Law of Moses were required only for the Israelites/Jews and the converts to Judaism. Jesus completed the first covenant (Law of Moses). It is no longer in force. Unfortunately, those practicing Judaism today do not believe this!


The "heaven and earth" of the Jews did pass away just as Jesus prophesied.

"In ancient Hebrew thought, the Jewish temple was seen as a microcosm of creation, representing heaven and earth. It had three compartments that symbolized heaven, earth, and the deep, serving as a model of the cosmos and a place of mediation between God and man.23​

​

The courtyard of the temple represented the cosmic spheres outside the organized cosmos, while the antechamber held representations of lights and food. The veil separated the earthly sphere from the heavenly sphere, where God dwelled.3​

​

Moreover, the temple was considered the epitome of the world, a concentrated form of its essence, and a miniature of the cosmos. It was not just a place where heaven and earth met but was thought to correspond to, represent, or in some sense, be "heaven and earth" in its totality.3​

​

In Jewish tradition, the seventh heaven, known as Araboth, is considered the holiest of the seven heavens because it houses the Throne of God and serves as the realm where God dwells." AI generated​

​

Jesus prophesies that the temple (heaven and earth) of the Jews will be destroyed. Matthew 24:1-2​

​

Jesus prophesies that this heaven and earth will pass away within that very generation. It did, in 70 AD. Matthew 23:36, Matthew 24:34-35​

Some excellent points there that I agree completely with. About the only thing I would question is your interpretation of the universe passing away being the temple passing away. There may be something to that, as you say, but the description itself is not of the temple superstructure but of the universe itself.

What I think Jesus was saying is that God's word is as inviolable as the universe itself is indesructable. And yet even the universe can pass away since God created it from nothing, and it can return to nothing.

So, what Jesus was saying is that just as the universe was set up for eternity, despite its current transient nature, so God's word is eternal. And if God has promised something to Israel, signified by the covenant of Law, as flawed as it was, so God's promises to Israel can never fail.

Therefore, Jesus was saying that he had come to complete this contract between God and Israel so that Israel's promises would be ratified forever. This would include putting God's righteousness in Israel, without any reduction in moral value at all.

At the time Jesus said this the Law was still in effect. And so, the way this was communicated was by emphasizing the entire set of laws under that covenant, which was to lead to Jesus' fulfillment of them by his death on the cross for Israel's sin. Jesus would become the new way, without any further need for redemption ceremonies and animal sacrifices.

It would be as the righteousness of the Law without all of the superstructure and paraphernalia, since in his death Jesus completed all that they represented. This was the eternal Law of God stripped of the part that had required Man to find reconciliation with God before Jesus' work on the cross.

 

[Jan001]

Some excellent points there that I agree completely with. About the only thing I would question is your interpretation of the universe passing away being the temple passing away. There may be something to that, as you say, but the description itself is not of the temple superstructure but of the universe itself.

Thank you for your thoughts on this topic. I appreciate them.

I think Jesus was speaking solely to the Jews about the heaven and earth of these Jews, which was their covenant and religious practices. The temple was absolutely necessary for this covenant to be in force as God had commanded. Deuteronomy 30:19

Hebrews 8:13 When he speaks of a “new” covenant, he declares the first one obsolete. And what has become obsolete and has grown old is close to disappearing.

It seems to me that the temple and its destruction are the sole subjects of Matthew 24:1-2 through 32-35. He said, "This generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place." "Heaven and earth" will pass away in this generation (within 40 years), but his words about this event will not pass away. The temple passed away (was destroyed) within 40 years, just as Jesus prophesied.

1-2 Jesus left the temple area and was going away, when his disciples approached him to point out the temple buildings. 2 He said to them in reply, “You see all these things, do you not? Amen, I say to you, there will not be left here a stone upon another stone that will not be thrown down.”

32-35 Learn a lesson from the fig tree. When its branch becomes tender and sprouts leaves, you know that summer is near. 33 In the same way, when you see all these things, know that he is near, at the gates. 34 Amen, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place. 35 Heaven and earth (the temple) will pass away, but my words will not pass away.

 

[Minister Monardo]

Yes, our position with Christ in heaven is, as I see it, "in grace." We have legal standing with Christ who is in heaven. We are not in heaven with him, obviously, but we are with him positionally, or legally, because he sits there upholding the stand he took for us on the cross in forgiving us of our sins.

For me, it is not so much imputation of righteousness, which is not understandable for me, but God recognizing that He doesn't hold our imperfections against us, and sees, instead, an example of our operating together with Christ's righteousness within us, through the Spirit.

So I suppose it is a acceptable to state that Christ is imputing to us the righteousness of Christ because he acknowledges that his righteousness in us is being generated along with a dispensation of grace, to cover our imperfections. It may just be the semantics of the thing, but I can't actually see Christ's perfect righteousness, which is sinless, imputed to us in any practical sense because once it is in us, through the Spirit, it comes to be tainted with our flawed ways of handling it.

Christ's righteousness is perfected in us by way of our relationship to one another in Christ, as a functioning body.
The Holy Spirit is not trying to make perfect individuals in this life. He is trying to perfect our relationship to one another, in preparation for an eternity, together.
Indeed this brings us from glory to glory as our character begins to reflect "Christ in us". Our final perfection is hidden with God in Christ until He gathers us all unto Himself and brings us into the "age to come", with "a new heaven and earth, where righteousness reigns".

 

[RandyPNW]

Christ's righteousness is perfected in us by way of our relationship to one another in Christ, as a functioning body.
The Holy Spirit is not trying to make perfect individuals in this life. He is trying to perfect our relationship to one another, in preparation for an eternity, together.
Indeed this brings us from glory to glory as our character begins to reflect "Christ in us". Our final perfection is hidden with God in Christ until He gathers us all unto Himself and brings us into the "age to come", with "a new heaven and earth, where righteousness reigns".

Well, God is certainly interested in bringing us into maturity and into a unity with one another. But I doubt very seriously that our relationships will be perfect, as you also suggested.

But yes, this is what I think the Bible means when it talks about "perfecting us." It is not sinless perfection, but righting our ship, so to speak. If we keep things balanced, it is enough to make it through and complete God's plan for our lives.

I agree that Christ reserves our legal perfection with him in heaven until we reach him in the day of our glorification. Until then he refuses to see anything keep us from heaven, even if he sees our flaws. His grace covers all we need for Eternal Salvation.