Infused vs. Imputed

[holyrokker]

From Romans 4:

Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness

And to the one who ... believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness

We say that faith was counted to Abraham as righteousness. How then was it counted to him? Was it before or after he had been circumcised? It was not after, but before he was circumcised. He received the sign of circumcision as a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised.

That is why his faith was "counted to him as righteousness." But the words "it was counted to him" were not written for his sake alone, but for ours also. It will be counted to us who believe in him who raised from the dead Jesus our Lord, who was delivered up for our trespasses and raised for our justification.

Faith is what counts as righteousness.

God doesn't credit Christ's righteousness to our account. He considers us truly righteous.

When God "looks" at a believer, He "sees" a righteous heart.

It is this righteousness that leads to justification.

It is this righteousness that leads to obedience.

faith = righteousness.

 

[IreneAdler]

I think we need a thesaurus of terms...

 

[Tangible]

Definition of terms is where any debate should start. Trouble is, you'll wind up debating over the definition of terms.

If you want to earn a Nobel prize, try to get a Catholic, a Lutheran, a Baptist and a Pentecostal to agree on the definitions of grace, faith, and works.

 

[Athanasias]

Definition of terms is where any debate should start. Trouble is, you'll wind up debating over the definition of terms.

If you want to earn a Nobel prize, try to get a Catholic, a Lutheran, a Baptist and a Pentecostal to agree on the definitions of grace, faith, and works.

i agree

 

[holyrokker]

I had a Baptist pastor once tell me, "If you have five Baptists in a room, you'll have six different opinions on any particular doctrine."

 

[IreneAdler]

Definition of terms is where any debate should start. Trouble is, you'll wind up debating over the definition of terms.

If you want to earn a Nobel prize, try to get a Catholic, a Lutheran, a Baptist and a Pentecostal to agree on the definitions of grace, faith, and works.

i agree

I had a Baptist pastor once tell me, "If you have five Baptists in a room, you'll have six different opinions on any particular doctrine."

and yet we spend so much blasted time arguing about them

 

[Athanasias]

and yet we spend so much blasted time arguing about them

Yea but thats the fun of it.

 

[MrPolo]

tho I would say that the imputation is instant and that infusion is gradual to be FINALLY completed on the day of Christ's return for those who are His.

So you agree with some of the others here who unify justification and sanctification?

 

[Tangible]

Dude, that's, like, the exact opposite of what he said.

 

[psalms 91]

so explain to me how if sin can be thought, and Adam and Chava had thought of sin before they ate... tell me what the tree did and why it was important

Because we have a better covenant we are also held to a higher standard for we should be able to defeat satan and the flesh thus our very thoughts can be sin but In the Old thought was not sin, it was the action so not sure what you are asking as they had to eat in oprder to sin

 

[IreneAdler]

why wouldn't that have happened with or without the tree?

 

[psalms 91]

I am not sure why you are attaching so much importance on the tree rather than the fact that they had a commandment not to eat of it and that satan took what God said and twisted it, Eve also added to what God had said which was part of her downfqall, all these things are important, the only thing about the tree was God saying dont eat

 

[IreneAdler]

because the tree is very important

 

[psalms 91]

Then please explain, I know it is now in heaven but I am anxious to hear what your take on it is

 

[IreneAdler]

because without knowledge our sin would be a mystery to us... that's why it was there... so we would know and could choose

 

[psalms 91]

because without knowledge our sin would be a mystery to us... that's why it was there... so we would know and could choose

Interesting but until they ate it was not relevant. Of course once they did then yes, there was knowledge that is why they now realized they were naked and just like children wanted rto hide because they had disobeyed.

 

[IreneAdler]

if they hadn't eaten they would have been oblivious and ignorant of sin all together

 

[psalms 91]

And we would have kept our estate and had paradise on earth but we needed Jesus to deliver us and redeem what we had lost

 

[IreneAdler]

nope. we wouldn't. I don't believe that sin would have done anything without knowledge really... I think it's the knowledge that kills... that seperates

 

[psalms 91]

If they hadnt ate of the tree then they would not have had knowledge. There are many important lessons in that little bit. It is rich in so many ways.