Infused vs. Imputed

[Frogster]

I agree that sanctification is progressive but you still don't see that Christ the new Adam united the divine with the Flesh to make the flesh holy by his grace. If that is the case then when we are baptized and put on Christ then we are transformed by his graces and made good. We are made good by Christ and his grace which changes us or regenerates us on the inside. The grace then is there in our personhood transforming us so how can we still be piles of poop when we share in the divine nature? Is Christ a pile of dung?

Your saying that Christ grace is not transformative in our entire person hood. Wow.

Do you believe we carry two natures?

 

[Athanasias]

Do you believe we carry two natures?

No.

 

[Frogster]

No.

Yes.

Gal 5:16-18So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. 17For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. 18But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.


Eph 4:22-24
You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires;


Romans 8:12-13
Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation—but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. 13For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.



Rom 7;15 For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. 16 Now if I do what I do not want, I agree with the law, that it is good. 17 So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. 18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing.

 

[Frogster]

Adam was dead,under a reign of condemantion and death.We are a new creation,imputed.It has to be,or else one has to presume that we can fix something that was nailed to a cross.

Rom 5;16 And the free gift is not like the result of that one man's sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification.

Also,the law was a legal document,that was a judge,that held all under condemnation.

Rom 3;19Now we know that whatever the things the law says, it speaks to those under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world be under judgment to God.

Here too.

Col 2;14 by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross.

God will judge the world,a legal proceeding,by the law.

Rom 3;6 By no means! For then how could God judge the world?

So obviously,it is imputation,not guilty anymore from the legal document of the law. JUDICIAL,as the posted text shows.

 

[Athanasias]

Yes.

Gal 5:16-18So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. 17For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. 18But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.


Eph 4:22-24
You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires;


Romans 8:12-13
Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation—but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. 13For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.



Rom 7;15 For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. 16 Now if I do what I do not want, I agree with the law, that it is good. 17 So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. 18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing.

Sorry but the only person that ever had two natures was Jesus Christ who is a Divine person with a divine and human nature.

Mankind has one nature, a human nature that has been justified in actuality and sanctified by Christ grace(that is how we partake in his divine nature as he really makes us holy and righteous) and that is why man can actually merit eternal life. The Flesh is another way of saying concupiscence or the scars of our old orignal sin that all men fight against but we still have only one nature, we still are only human albeit divinized.

 

[simonthezealot]

Do you believe we carry two natures?

No.

One human nature...

but we are spirit and flesh in nature.
one dying one growing.
unless you believe in sin annihalation we'll always have two under-natures if you will...

Sin nature is a bad translation though for (sarx/flesh) so i get where people want to say NO to it, but Paul in Romans where he says i do what i don't want to and i don't do what i want to should make it pretty clear.

 

[Athanasias]

.

 

[simonthezealot]

On sin nature i heard a preacher speak about it this way, imagine a man who is a slave for 30+ years then is given freedom, this slave will walk away a free man BUT he will always have or feel the sensations created from being a slave it will have carved into his thought process so to speak...Granted over time the slave nature gets weaker and weaker.

 

[simonthezealot]

So obviously,it is imputation,not guilty anymore from the legal document of the law. JUDICIAL,as the posted text shows.

Right on Frog man.

 

[OpenDoor]

The new nature is the adding of Christ. Let me ask you this though so I understand it. Is a person who is sanctified still a pile of dung in reality like Luther said???

Luther was using the snow over dung as an illustration of the covering over or putting on Christ
but he never denied the internal change of the believer (he even made that point)

 

[IreneAdler]

A child can be adopted,and declared legally righteous,but still learn to walk in the Spirit,hence more of a separatedness from Adam.

Paul said he had not yet attained it yet,but wanted to walk in more resurrection power in the book of Phil.

Resurrected from who? Adam!

And then the more we will be set apart,more santified...

Takes time,as with Paul,but he was guilty ,then delclared just when he rose with Christ,as a new creation.

Rom 4;25 who was delivered up for our trespasses and raised for our justification.

Sounds good to me.

I think you're focusing too much on Adam. Frankly... when growing in spirit... in that relationship... I could give a flip who I'm growing FROM... but who I'm growing TO...kwim? I think that's why peopl are :o about what you're saying as much as anything... your point of reference seems.... weird to focus on.

 

[Frogster]

Sorry but the only person that ever had two natures was Jesus Christ who is a Divine person with a divine and human nature.

Mankind has one nature, a human nature that has been justified in actuality and sanctified by Christ grace(that is how we partake in his divine nature as he really makes us holy and righteous) and that is why man can actually merit eternal life. The Flesh is another way of saying concupiscence or the scars of our old orignal sin that all men fight against but we still have only one nature, we still are only human albeit divinized.

Well bro,I posted clear verses that show we carry 2 natures.Your trying to sanctifiy Adam.God di not come to fix us,he came to make a new creation.

If you have to put something on,that means it is not automatic,and there is another thing in opposition to it.


Eph 4:22-24
You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires; 23to be made new in the attitude of your minds; 24and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness.


Put the new self on what?..cough cough...

Same here..we carry the 2.Why would Paul teach how to walk in the new,and take off the old,it there were not the 2?

Col 3:5-10
Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry. 6Because of these, the wrath of God is coming. 7You used to walk in these ways, in the life you once lived. 8But now you must rid yourselves of all such things as these: anger, rage, malice, slander, and filthy language from your lips. 9Do not lie to each other, since you have taken off your old self with its practices 10and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge in the image of its Creator.

 

[Frogster]

Right on Frog man.

You too bro.
Some want to santifty Adam.We rose with Jesus,after burying Adam.1 Cor 15 says,we died in Adam.Adam was not raised.

 

[MrPolo]

We all mature,and grow,fine,but even that comes from the Sprit.

A moment ago you said that Christ's grace doesn't have the power to transform. Now you say He makes you mature and grow.

What I am gathering from your posts is that sanctification doesn't even exist. Even after a good dose of Christ's grace, we're still as much dung as ever.

p.s. Prior to sinning, Adam was not dung, he was without stain and welcome in the presence of God's immaculate dwelling place.

 

[IreneAdler]

Prior to eating of the tree I think Adam was incomplete in his relationship with God though

 

[psalms 91]

I agree that sanctification is progressive but you still don't see that Christ the new Adam united the divine with the Flesh to make the flesh holy by his grace. If that is the case then when we are baptized and put on Christ then we are transformed by his graces and made good. We are made good by Christ and his grace which changes us or regenerates us on the inside. The grace then is there in our personhood transforming us so how can we still be piles of poop when we share in the divine nature? Is Christ a pile of dung?

Your saying that Christ grace is not transformative in our entire person hood. Wow.

The key is when we put on Christ, many have Christ in them but are not in Christ. Also if the flesh is sqanctified let me ask, do you still sin? If so how do you explain that?

 

[psalms 91]

If you do not believe in two natures then explain to me sin within the body of Christ. That is what Jesus died for, our sin. We do not quit sinning when we come to Christ and that is because our flesh is not wholly crucified but our spirit is holy. Hence why the flesh needs nailed to the cross. There is a battle inside everyone between flesh and spirit and one will be stronger than the other.

 

[Tangible]

If your not judged by your sanctification then why even have sanctification?? It would be pretty pointless.

God doesn't need our good works, but our neighbor does. It's how God provides daily bread for everyone.

God sanctifies us not for our own sake, but for the sake of our neighbor. Common grace.

 

[Tangible]

If that is the case then when we are baptized and put on Christ then we are transformed by his graces and made good. We are made good by Christ and his grace which changes us or regenerates us on the inside.

If our flesh and spirit are both made good at regeneration (and Jesus says no one is good but God alone) why would Catholics need Purgatory?

 

[Athanasias]

If our flesh and spirit are both made good at regeneration (and Jesus says no one is good but God alone) why would Catholics need Purgatory?

Actually there are good people by Gods grace:

"News of this came to the ears of the church in Jerusalem, and they sent Barnabas to Antioch.
[23] When he came and saw the grace of God, he was glad; and he exhorted them all to remain faithful to the Lord with steadfast purpose;
[24] for he was a good man, full of the Holy Spirit and of faith(Acts 11:22-24)


Sounds like he is made good and regenerate to me.