A Heresy for your Consideration...

[visionary]

Only those who recieve Christ as savior will be saved...that's the bottom line, end of story, the truth.

which brings us right back to His sheep, His fold, and those who follow His voice.

 

[CryoftheNation]

which brings us right back to His sheep, His fold, and those who follow His voice.

Correct! But those who are his sheep come because they chose to. It is open to all to become his sheep! It's not a closed membership!

God bless

Simon

 

[visionary]

Good, I was almost under the impression that you thought is was now strickly a gentile faith.

 

[Nadiine]

and.....??your point?


do you think it is isolated to just those whom you have declared to be "gentiles".. a jewish term which is relative to whether you are a jew or not? I do not think so..

from what I understand, a Gentile is every other nation
under the sun other than a Jew.

So, a Gentile is everyone else in the world and the Jews are
already the branch, so I'm not grasping why you think
'other sheep' being Gentiles is limiting?

 

[ebia]

Well, guys, thanks for all your interest in this thread.

However, I can't help noticing that for all the Bible quotations, (and let's face it, you can read many different things into any given quote) no one has addressed the points I made a couple of pages back.

Briefly - to save you looking back - these are 1. Virtue and vice seem independent of belief, so the idea that God would reward Christians with Heaven and punish unbelievers with Hell involves believing in an unjust God; and 2. Belief is largely independent of volition, and more related to surrounding culture, so that the idea that God would reward Christians with Heaven and punish unbelievers with Hell is to reward and punish something beyond our control, and therefore also involves believing in an unjust God.

So, do you want the Bible, and an unjust God, or do you want my heresy, and a just God?

Neither.
It's not about God punishing or rewarding for belief or disbelief. It's about God putting us & creation to rights and including in that all who agree to be included.

 

[visionary]

from what I understand, a Gentile is every other nation
under the sun other than a Jew.

So, a Gentile is everyone else in the world and the Jews are
already the branch, so I'm not grasping why you think
'other sheep' being Gentiles is limiting?

I think it has to do with the thinking... we are suppose to be in the spiritual understanding there is no jew or greek, no jew or gentile.. because we are all one in Christ.

 

[Nadiine]

I think it has to do with the thinking... we are suppose to be in the spiritual understanding there is no jew or greek, no jew or gentile.. because we are all one in Christ.

Oh I see what you're saying now . .

Well, we still know there ARE different races, different sexes,
different colors, etc.

But the Bible does use the definitions of these 2 groups, not that
anyone is above another - it's just the audience being spoken to
at the time in how to view one another imo.

Jew isn't to look down on Gentile becuz they are God's "chosen",
Gentile isn't to look down on Jew when God turned to them
for rescue becuz we are grafted into them etc.

That's very oversimplified and not clarified enough, but we can still
view each equally while acknowledging the 2 groups exist in
reality

 

[visionary]

Oh I see what you're saying now . .

Well, we still know there ARE different races, different sexes,
different colors, etc.

But the Bible does use the definitions of these 2 groups, not that
anyone is above another - it's just the audience being spoken to
at the time in how to view one another imo.

Jew isn't to look down on Gentile becuz they are God's "chosen",
Gentile isn't to look down on Jew when God turned to them
for rescue becuz we are grafted into them etc.

That's very oversimplified and not clarified enough, but we can still
view each equally while acknowledging the 2 groups exist in
reality

no prob... looks like we are on the same page..

 

[Nadiine]

no prob... looks like we are on the same page..

sounds great I hate not being on the same page,
I think it's just a part of online dialog tho.

 

[elephunky]

The Christian label was given to us in scripture so I'll happily wear the label.

Acts 11:26
"And when he had found him, he brought him to Antioch. So it was that for a whole year they assembled with the church and taught a great many people. And the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch."

1 Peter 4:16
Yet if anyone suffers as a Christian, let him not be ashamed, but let him glorify God in this matter.
1 Peter 4:15-17

A label is just that, a label. People who arent actually christians label themselves as one. Names are meaningless. Its your faith that truly matters

 

[2ndRateMind]

Neither.
It's not about God punishing or rewarding for belief or disbelief. It's about God putting us & creation to rights and including in that all who agree to be included.

Indeed, ebia. Provided we can agree that those 'who agree to be included' are not necessarily those who label themselves Christians, but anybody who prefers virtue to vice in themselves and in others and in God, I think we have settled somewhere pretty close on my heresy.

Best wishes, 2ndRateMind

 

[ebia]

Indeed, ebia. Provided we can agree that those 'who agree to be included' are not necessarily those who label themselves Christians, but anybody who prefers virtue to vice in themselves and in others and in God, I think we have settled somewhere pretty close on my heresy.

Best wishes, 2ndRateMind

It's not for me to try to judge who accepts God's offer and who rejects it. One thing Jesus was pretty clear about was that we will all be surprised about that one.

 

[2ndRateMind]

It's not for me to try to judge who accepts God's offer and who rejects it. One thing Jesus was pretty clear about was that we will all be surprised about that one.

On the contrary, it is for all of us to ponder this question, for many reasons. For a start, an answer to this issue is the answer to why we are all here at all, and in the deepest and most profound sense it is truly the answer 'to life, the universe, and everything'. And secondly, charlatans and false preachers are more easily able to take advantage of those who have not the matter serious thought, with their simplistic and biased packages of scripture, as if gaining Heaven were some deal as shoddy as a budget holiday to the costa del sol.

This is, allegedly, a philosophy and ethics forum: we are allowed to debate such topics, here.

Best wishes, 2ndRateMind.

 

[Nadiine]

On the contrary, it is for all of us to ponder this question, for many reasons. For a start, an answer to this issue is the answer to why we are all here at all, and in the deepest and most profound sense it is truly the answer 'to life, the universe, and everything'. And secondly, charlatans and false preachers are more easily able to take advantage of those who have not the matter serious thought, with their simplistic and biased packages of scripture, as if gaining Heaven were some deal as shoddy as a budget holiday to the costa del sol.

This is, allegedly, a philosophy and ethics forum: we are allowed to debate such topics, here.

Best wishes, 2ndRateMind.

Well, in this case, you're picking hypothetical people who you don't
know believe anything specific & saying they're "saved".

We also should be careful who we say is SAVED as well as LOST.
The Disciples had no clue Judas was the betrayer prior to it happening.
They assumed like anyone else that Judas was of God - in his heart
he wasn't at all, he just outwardly went thru all the motions &
made a convincing show of it.

How many Christian leaders have been outed for theft and sexual
scandal or left the faith?
Even teachers who have taught good messages.

Plus we're to watch for false teachers like you mention - the problem
is, it's hard for a false teacher, nonChristian or wolf to know what false teaching is when they don't understand God's word & truth to begin with?
Those not of God cannot understand the truth in it.

Anyways, I think Ebia was speaking more about the hypothetical
people you're mentioning who have never heard of Jesus specifically.
But I could be wrong about that.
I'd tend to agree w/ you that it is (at least somewhat) our duty
to use discernment in people's claim to faith - if not for our own spiritual
protection.

 

[daydreamergurl15]

A label is just that, a label. People who arent actually christians label themselves as one. Names are meaningless. Its your faith that truly matters

Well, that label was given to me through scripture, its not meaningless. I know it is my faith that truly matters and Christian, is part of it. Because it means disciple of Christ, I will not stop calling myself a Christian simply because of others whom label themselves one but aren't.

 

[Nadiine]

A label is just that, a label. People who arent actually christians label themselves as one. Names are meaningless. Its your faith that truly matters

Well, if you don't "label" yourself a Christian, it's hard to witness
to people as one -

I disgree that names are meaningless.
When someone tells me they're a Satanist, pagan, liberal or
agnostic, it gives me a picture of their worldview to start with.
When they say they're a Muslim or Hindu, that tells me alot.

So I disagree, names & titles do mean something - they don't mean
everything or mean someone is properly representing that name,
term or title.
When we claim Christ's name, we better be a good ambassador
of Him.

 

[ebia]

On the contrary, it is for all of us to ponder this question, for many reasons. For a start, an answer to this issue is the answer to why we are all here at all, and in the deepest and most profound sense it is truly the answer 'to life, the universe, and everything'. And secondly, charlatans and false preachers are more easily able to take advantage of those who have not the matter serious thought, with their simplistic and biased packages of scripture, as if gaining Heaven were some deal as shoddy as a budget holiday to the costa del sol.

I'm not saying we shouldn't think about such things - just that it's not my job to make a judgement on someone's situation.

I will say that it's necessary everyone to be renewed in Jesus and to accept his Kingship in order to be part of the Kingdom of God. I'm not going to say whether someone is doing that or not.

 

[CruciFixed]

....? well last I checked my bible,
"following" Christ didn't include preaching another
gospel

Yes, this is what I was getting at. thank for putting it much more clearly.

using the literal definition of Christian, then yes, they become Christians, but they dont have to follow Christian Doctrine, thats what I was referring to about labels that we use.

Yes, we will know them by their fruits, for example, a murderer would not be considered a good person and definitely not in line with God's will.

Unless said murdere was saved and forgiven. You see murder is no worse a sin than lying, stealing, or idolatry. God does not grade on a scale sin=sin.

My Jesus did not embrace his cross so that he would be one of many ways to the Father. He came because His was the only way, there is no other. For the road that leads to destruction is wide and many will follow it, but the road to life is narrow and fewer still will find it. My Jesus, the Jesus of the Gospel chose me, and He chose those who seek Him to receive this gift of life, he carried our cross so that we may stand before the Father, and that we may be offered without blemish to be married to Him that has redeemed us, we are His righteousness, and the blood that was poured out will cover our sins.

If there was any other way, do you not think that God would not have sent His son, the one whom all creation was done through to die that most treacherous way? Surely my King will hear my call, that even though I am yet a sinner, I will receive this gift of life He offers through His own blood.

Indeed, Nadiine, you have touched on the very heart of the matter. We all want the truth, but the question is, can we, should we, put our faith in a Bible that preaches an unjust God?

Best wishes, 2ndRateMind

How is God unjust? He is the devine creator and you are assuming he's unjust because He chooses who enters His Kingdom though not one person not one sinful, evil, dirty person deserves to be there. The only reason anybody gets to go to heaven is because of their faith in Jesus who is God in the flesh. Not just some guy. Jesus=God=King of Kings.

Why does an atheist deserve Heaven when even as Christians WE don't deserve Heaven? He's not unjust. It'd be fair to say He could very well have wiped the human race clean off the planet because of our ancestors Adam and Eve who stole from him then tried to place blame on each other, lie about it and blame Him. He could have wiped us out but instead He humbled himself. left His throne and entrusted Himself to a 13 year old girl and then to a group of men 1 which betrayed him. Then He died a most embarrassing death on a cross next to two criminals all for US and you have the nerve the very nerve to assume Buddah and the likes deserve Heaven because by your faulty human standards he was righteous or good? You don' g et it do you?
Works are good for nothing. Charity is good for nothing. All of it is pointless if you don't have salvation which only comes from Jesus who IS God. Jesus isn't the spotlight guy who fills in for God. He is God.
He did not HAVE to do it, he did it because He wanted to and He loves us.


Brother, God owes us nothing, nada zilch. He paid our debt not the other way around. If you know a charitable atheist you'd like to see in Heaven then you need to preach the gospel and lead him to Christ. Otherwise he can give his left arm to the armless, his money to the poor and all of his canned goods to a local church and hes still filthy in the eyes of the Lord.
What do atheists want with a Heaven they don't believe in anyhow?

Consider this:
Every human being sins. Only Jesus was sinless and perfect.
No one deserves God's glory.
No one even deserves a single thing from God.
If all it took was "behaving yourself" and "doing good things" Do you think Jesus would have even had a purpose to come to Earth to begin with? He would not have come here and died on a cross at all had good works been enough.

Coming to such conclusions like:
"Anyone can go to Heaven if they are good"
is like saying Jesus' life, teachings and ultimately his sacrificial death served no purpose.

 

[daydreamergurl15]

Matthew 26:36-75 (New King James Version)

36 Then Jesus came with them to a place called Gethsemane, and said to the disciples, “Sit here while I go and pray over there.” 37 And He took with Him Peter and the two sons of Zebedee, and He began to be sorrowful and deeply distressed. 38 Then He said to them, “My soul is exceedingly sorrowful, even to death. Stay here and watch with Me.”
39 He went a little farther and fell on His face, and prayed, saying, “O My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as You will.”
40 Then He came to the disciples and found them sleeping, and said to Peter, “What! Could you not watch with Me one hour? 41 Watch and pray, lest you enter into temptation. The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.”
42 Again, a second time, He went away and prayed, saying, “O My Father, if this cup cannot pass away from Me unless I drink it, Your will be done.” 43 And He came and found them asleep again, for their eyes were heavy.
44 So He left them, went away again, and prayed the third time, saying the same words. 45 Then He came to His disciples and said to them, “Are you still sleeping and resting? Behold, the hour is at hand, and the Son of Man is being betrayed into the hands of sinners. 46 Rise, let us be going. See, My betrayer is at hand.”


47 And while He was still speaking, behold, Judas, one of the twelve, with a great multitude with swords and clubs, came from the chief priests and elders of the people.
48 Now His betrayer had given them a sign, saying, “Whomever I kiss, He is the One; seize Him.” 49 Immediately he went up to Jesus and said, “Greetings, Rabbi!” and kissed Him.
50 But Jesus said to him, “Friend, why have you come?”
Then they came and laid hands on Jesus and took Him. 51 And suddenly, one of those who were with Jesus stretched out his hand and drew his sword, struck the servant of the high priest, and cut off his ear.
52 But Jesus said to him, “Put your sword in its place, for all who take the sword will perish by the sword. 53 Or do you think that I cannot now pray to My Father, and He will provide Me with more than twelve legions of angels? 54 How then could the Scriptures be fulfilled, that it must happen thus?”
55 In that hour Jesus said to the multitudes, “Have you come out, as against a robber, with swords and clubs to take Me? I sat daily with you, teaching in the temple, and you did not seize Me. 56 But all this was done that the Scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled.”
Then all the disciples forsook Him and fled.


57 And those who had laid hold of Jesus led Him away to Caiaphas the high priest, where the scribes and the elders were assembled. 58 But Peter followed Him at a distance to the high priest’s courtyard. And he went in and sat with the servants to see the end.
59 Now the chief priests, the elders, and all the council sought false testimony against Jesus to put Him to death, 60 but found none. Even though many false witnesses came forward, they found none. But at last two false witnesses came forward 61 and said, “This fellow said, ‘I am able to destroy the temple of God and to build it in three days.’”
62 And the high priest arose and said to Him, “Do You answer nothing? What is it these men testify against You?” 63 But Jesus kept silent. And the high priest answered and said to Him, “I put You under oath by the living God: Tell us if You are the Christ, the Son of God!”
64 Jesus said to him, “It is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.”
65 Then the high priest tore his clothes, saying, “He has spoken blasphemy! What further need do we have of witnesses? Look, now you have heard His blasphemy! 66 What do you think?”
They answered and said, “He is deserving of death.”
67 Then they spat in His face and beat Him; and others struck Him with the palms of their hands, 68 saying, “Prophesy to us, Christ! Who is the one who struck You?”


69 Now Peter sat outside in the courtyard. And a servant girl came to him, saying, “You also were with Jesus of Galilee.”
70 But he denied it before them all, saying, “I do not know what you are saying.”
71 And when he had gone out to the gateway, another girl saw him and said to those who were there, “This fellow also was with Jesus of Nazareth.”
72 But again he denied with an oath, “I do not know the Man!”
73 And a little later those who stood by came up and said to Peter, “Surely you also are one of them, for your speech betrays you.”
74 Then he began to curse and swear, saying, “I do not know the Man!”
Immediately a rooster crowed. 75 And Peter remembered the word of Jesus who had said to him, “Before the rooster crows, you will deny Me three times.” So he went out and wept bitterly.

 

[daydreamergurl15]

Matthew 27 (New King James Version)


1 When morning came, all the chief priests and elders of the people plotted against Jesus to put Him to death. 2 And when they had bound Him, they led Him away and delivered Him to Pontius Pilate the governor.
Judas Hangs Himself

3 Then Judas, His betrayer, seeing that He had been condemned, was remorseful and brought back the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders, 4 saying, “I have sinned by betraying innocent blood.”
And they said, “What is that to us? You see to it!”
5 Then he threw down the pieces of silver in the temple and departed, and went and hanged himself.
6 But the chief priests took the silver pieces and said, “It is not lawful to put them into the treasury, because they are the price of blood.” 7 And they consulted together and bought with them the potter’s field, to bury strangers in. 8 Therefore that field has been called the Field of Blood to this day.
9 Then was fulfilled what was spoken by Jeremiah the prophet, saying, “And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the value of Him who was priced, whom they of the children of Israel priced, 10 and gave them for the potter’s field, as the LORD directed me.”


11 Now Jesus stood before the governor. And the governor asked Him, saying, “Are You the King of the Jews?”
Jesus said to him, “It is as you say.” 12 And while He was being accused by the chief priests and elders, He answered nothing.
13 Then Pilate said to Him, “Do You not hear how many things they testify against You?” 14 But He answered him not one word, so that the governor marveled greatly.


15 Now at the feast the governor was accustomed to releasing to the multitude one prisoner whom they wished. 16 And at that time they had a notorious prisoner called Barabbas. 17 Therefore, when they had gathered together, Pilate said to them, “Whom do you want me to release to you? Barabbas, or Jesus who is called Christ?” 18 For he knew that they had handed Him over because of envy.
19 While he was sitting on the judgment seat, his wife sent to him, saying, “Have nothing to do with that just Man, for I have suffered many things today in a dream because of Him.”
20 But the chief priests and elders persuaded the multitudes that they should ask for Barabbas and destroy Jesus. 21 The governor answered and said to them, “Which of the two do you want me to release to you?”
They said, “Barabbas!”
22 Pilate said to them, “What then shall I do with Jesus who is called Christ?”
They all said to him, “Let Him be crucified!”
23 Then the governor said, “Why, what evil has He done?”
But they cried out all the more, saying, “Let Him be crucified!”
24 When Pilate saw that he could not prevail at all, but rather that a tumult was rising, he took water and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, “I am innocent of the blood of this just Person. You see to it.”
25 And all the people answered and said, “His blood be on us and on our children.”
26 Then he released Barabbas to them; and when he had scourged Jesus, he delivered Him to be crucified.


27 Then the soldiers of the governor took Jesus into the Praetorium and gathered the whole garrison around Him. 28 And they stripped Him and put a scarlet robe on Him. 29 When they had twisted a crown of thorns, they put it on His head, and a reed in His right hand. And they bowed the knee before Him and mocked Him, saying, “Hail, King of the Jews!” 30 Then they spat on Him, and took the reed and struck Him on the head. 31 And when they had mocked Him, they took the robe off Him, put His own clothes on Him, and led Him away to be crucified.


32 Now as they came out, they found a man of Cyrene, Simon by name. Him they compelled to bear His cross. 33 And when they had come to a place called Golgotha, that is to say, Place of a Skull, 34 they gave Him sour wine mingled with gall to drink. But when He had tasted it, He would not drink.
35 Then they crucified Him, and divided His garments, casting lots, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet:


“ They divided My garments among them,
And for My clothing they cast lots.”

36 Sitting down, they kept watch over Him there. 37 And they put up over His head the accusation written against Him:

THIS IS JESUS THE KING OF THE JEWS.

38 Then two robbers were crucified with Him, one on the right and another on the left.
39 And those who passed by blasphemed Him, wagging their heads 40 and saying, “You who destroy the temple and build it in three days, save Yourself! If You are the Son of God, come down from the cross.”
41 Likewise the chief priests also, mocking with the scribes and elders, said, 42 “He saved others; Himself He cannot save. If He is the King of Israel, let Him now come down from the cross, and we will believe Him. 43 He trusted in God; let Him deliver Him now if He will have Him; for He said, ‘I am the Son of God.’”
44 Even the robbers who were crucified with Him reviled Him with the same thing.


45 Now from the sixth hour until the ninth hour there was darkness over all the land. 46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, “Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?” that is, “My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?”
47 Some of those who stood there, when they heard that, said, “This Man is calling for Elijah!” 48 Immediately one of them ran and took a sponge, filled it with sour wine and put it on a reed, and offered it to Him to drink.
49 The rest said, “Let Him alone; let us see if Elijah will come to save Him.”
50 And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit.
51 Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split, 52 and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.
54 So when the centurion and those with him, who were guarding Jesus, saw the earthquake and the things that had happened, they feared greatly, saying, “Truly this was the Son of God!”
55 And many women who followed Jesus from Galilee, ministering to Him, were there looking on from afar, 56 among whom were Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James and Joses, and the mother of Zebedee’s sons.


57 Now when evening had come, there came a rich man from Arimathea, named Joseph, who himself had also become a disciple of Jesus. 58 This man went to Pilate and asked for the body of Jesus. Then Pilate commanded the body to be given to him. 59 When Joseph had taken the body, he wrapped it in a clean linen cloth, 60 and laid it in his new tomb which he had hewn out of the rock; and he rolled a large stone against the door of the tomb, and departed. 61 And Mary Magdalene was there, and the other Mary, sitting opposite the tomb.


62 On the next day, which followed the Day of Preparation, the chief priests and Pharisees gathered together to Pilate, 63 saying, “Sir, we remember, while He was still alive, how that deceiver said, ‘After three days I will rise.’ 64 Therefore command that the tomb be made secure until the third day, lest His disciples come by night and steal Him away, and say to the people, ‘He has risen from the dead.’ So the last deception will be worse than the first.”
65 Pilate said to them, “You have a guard; go your way, make it as secure as you know how.” 66 So they went and made the tomb secure, sealing the stone and setting the guard.