"Fatal Flaw" in predestinary theory

[AndOne]

Behe's Boy,

It is what was delivered to the Apostles who then gave it to the Early Church. It is what has been preserved by the Holy Spirit within the Body of Christ since that time.
It is not man's interpretation of a book called the Bible which is only a part of that Gospel. The Bible is part, the written part, of the Holy Tradition.

As a sinner - this reply doesn't give me much hope. Are you sure you want to use this as your definition of the gospel? It doesn't really define WHAT it is. Can't you tell me?

 

[expos4ever]

Romans 8:7 says that the unregenerate person is not subject to the law of God. thus Romans 7:22 "For I delight in the law of God after the inward man": is NOT speaking of a none Christian !

No. Romans 8:7 is entirely consistent with Romans 7 being a description of the Jew under Torah. In Romans 8:6-8:

6The mind of sinful man[e] is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; 7the sinful mind[f] is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. 8Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God.

We obviously agree that this is describing the unbeliever. What does it say about the non-believer - that his state of mind leads to death and that the sinful mind cannot do good. These are precisely the same things that Paul says in Romans 7:

11For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death

For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out.

Clearly the Christian does have the ability to carry out "good". So for that reason alone, we know Romans 7 is not characterising the Christian in any state.

But back to your objection: it is interesting that you gave only a snippet. Here is the whole text about the man "delighting in the law of God":

22For in my inner being I delight in God's law; 23but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members

Paul is saying that the "mind that delights" loses the battle to the law of sin. Paul's wording may be a tad confusing and I have some empathy for your point.

But Paul says so many things in Romans 7 that simply cannot be true of the Christian.

 

[AndOne]

No. Romans 8:7 is entirely consistent with Romans 7 being a description of the Jew under Torah. In Romans 8:6-8:

6The mind of sinful man[e] is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; 7the sinful mind[f] is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. 8Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God.

We obviously agree that this is describing the unbeliever. What does it say about the non-believer - that his state of mind leads to death and that the sinful mind cannot do good. These are precisely the same things that Paul says in Romans 7:

11For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death

For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out.

Clearly the Christian does have the ability to carry out "good". So for that reason alone, we know Romans 7 is not characterising the Christian in any state.

But back to your objection: it is interesting that you gave only a snippet. Here is the whole text about the man "delighting in the law of God":

22For in my inner being I delight in God's law; 23but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members

Paul is saying that the "mind that delights" loses the battle to the law of sin. Paul's wording may be a tad confusing and I have some empathy for your point.

But Paul says so many things in Romans 7 that simply cannot be true of the Christian.

Would you be willing to quantify these statesment in regards to Romans 7 that though it is possible to do good as Christians - we still will sin? Just curious.

 

[expos4ever]

Then perhaps you should examine yourself to see whether you be in the faith. Or are you going to tell us that you never sin anymore, that you have totally and completely mastered your flesh, and believe in sinless perfection in this life?

If you read my post carefully, you would not be asking this question. I was quite clear that my post did not address the matter of whether the Christian sins. In fact I have stated that the Christian does indeed sin.

I was merely demonstrating that Romans 7 is not dealing with the experience of the Christian and his struggle with sin. Just because I make this point about Romans 7 does not mean that I do not believe that Christians still sin.

 

[AndOne]

If you read my post carefully, you would not be asking this question. I was quite clear that my post did not address the matter of whether the Christian sins. In fact I have stated that the Christian does indeed sin.

I was merely demonstrating that Romans 7 is not dealing with the experience of the Christian and his struggle with sin. Just because I make this point about Romans 7 does not mean that I do not believe that Christians still sin.

This answers my question - thanks.

 

[expos4ever]

Romans 7 ; Further instruction to the Christian that he has been freed from sin because he has been freed from the Law , legalism is a REAL problem for Christians and causes them to sin and become dead again towards God's influence [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif].[/FONT]

But when Paul refers to the "law" and the "commandment" in Romans 7, he is obviously referring to the Torah - the Law of Moses - he is not talking about some abstract general moral law or principle. As elsewhere in Romans, the "law" for Paul is the Torah. That the Torah is specifically in view in Romans 7 is confirmed here:

Certainly not! Indeed I would not have known what sin was except through the law For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, "Do not covet"

This is a clear reference to the Torah and one of the commandments. Paul is not talking about legalism here. He is making a more specific point about the Torah and its effect on the Jew.

 

[AndOne]

But when Paul refers to the "law" and the "commandment" in Romans 7, he is obviously referring to the Torah - the Law of Moses - he is not talking about some abstract general moral law or principle. As elsewhere in Romans, the "law" for Paul is the Torah.

Not so sure about that - clearly Romans 1-3 is talking about a "general law."

 

[AndOne]

See Romans 2:12-16 specifically...

 

[cygnusx1]

Your position on Romans 7 is demonstrably incorrect. Regardless of the answer to the question of what the status of the Christian is in respect to sin, including what other texts have to say about the question, including Galatians 5, Romans 7 is not relevant to resolving that issue.

what nonsense !

We understand scripture by comparing scripture with scripture , not by isolating and making it disagree with other scriptures , that's how cults are made.

This is because Romans 7 constitutes Paul's reflections of the condition of the Jew under Torah.

which helps the Christian , how ?

The implications of the texts in my previous post have not been addressed. Here they are again:

Once I was alive apart from law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. 10I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death

show how Paul was alive apart from Law , he was born a Jew , he had never been alive apart from the Law until he became a Christian .

This cannot be a description of the ongoing Christian experiences.

it is. Galatians also shows the same thing , legalism resulting in "death" .

Paul describes sin coming to life and his "death" resulting. This cannot be a description of the state of the believer -

sure it is , he didn't "die" as a JEW because of sin!

accepting Christ does not cause sin to "spring to life".

irrelevant... no-one even hinted it did.

This alone closes the door on any possibility that this text is about the experience of the Christian.

clearly false . You still sin.

It is the Torah - the "commandment" that Paul refers to here - that caused sin to spring to life. Here Paul echoes a similar point he made in Romans 5 about the nature of the Torah and its strange purpose of actually making sin increase:

20The law was added so that the trespass might increase.

what has that got to do with the state of a Christian verses a Jew ? are Christians sinless ? Do they not also sin against God's Holy Law ? are Christians exempt from the command to Love the Lord Thy God with all thy might ?

Now here is the other text I provided with a little more context:

11For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death. 12So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good. 13Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! But in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it produced death in me through what was good, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful.
14We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin.

how is that relevant to Christians if he is not speaking about his Christian experience it all becomes nothing more than a "trip down memory lane " .....

Again, I am not, in this post, commenting on the status of Christian re sin.

how convenient !!!

Because it just might agree with Romans 7 no doubt!

I am merely showing that this Romans 7 text is not describing the experience of the Christian and is therefore not relevant to that question - it is an analysis of the plight of the Jew under Torah. There are several things in the above text that rule out any characterization of the experience of the Christian:

this position is untenable , it has been demonstrated false by many Theologians commentators and painfully by Christian experience for generations.

1. Paul says that the Torah produceddeath in him. This is a statement that simply cannot be true of the Christian.

why !

You have yet to give any reason.

Perhaps, as I think you are arguing, a believer who pursued Torah would indeed fall away and die.

well if you think Paul is speaking of a literal death ............. then how is it he is still alive to pen this experience ? no your argument is lost.

But this is not what Paul says - he is not talking about possibilities here - he says that death indeed did happen.

Sure !

This is precisley what happened to the Jew under Torah - it is certainly not the general experience of the Christian. If it were, we would be forced to conclude that being a Christian leads to death, which is obviously incorrect.

bait and switch !

being a Christian doesn't lead to death , but being a LEGALIST does!

2. In verse 14, Paul characterizes himself as being "sold as a slave to sin". This is precisely the opposite of the status of the Christian.

context ! as seen from the point of view of his flesh/fallen nature , NOT his race!

While a Christian can sin, he is not a "slave to sin". This is precisely the point of Romans 8 - that the Spirit delivers man from that state. So Paul cannot think that a Christian is in any sense "a slave to sin".

again , context , Paul's experience through Romans 7 isn't the ideal of Romans 8 , but it is the common lot of all Christians as long as they remain in this body of flesh!

The life of The Spirit , Romans 8 is the Christians TRUE ideal , few there are if any , that can sustain a Romans 8 experience for long , for we all sin .

And then we have this statement, which simply cannot be true of the Christian:

For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out.

again context ! the none Christian doesn't have a desire to do good (Romans 3) Paul is speaking of an inner conflict , and you think a none believer has this inner conflict , flesh against Spirit ? You have the wrong understanding , clearly only a Christian knows such Spiritual war.

Again, this text alone suffices to rule out the possibility that Paul is talking about the experience of the Christian. As Paul will write in Romans 8, the Christian is given the Spirit precisely in order to allow him to do good.

which certainly defeats your argument that Paul as an unregenerate JEW could do good ; he said

"For I delight in the law of God after the inward man" : such is a good thing to do !!!


Remember Paul elsewhere speaks of himself as an unregenerate JEW with NO DIFFICULTY KEEPING TORAH ;

"as to the Law blameless "

yes I can see how this testimony of an unregenerate JEW would fit Romans 7 , NOT !

Romans 8 , Paul is moving upwards in his argument to an ideal state !!

There is absolutely no possibility that this text from Romans 7 is descriptive of the experience of the Christian.

such repetition is a sign of desperation.

 

[cygnusx1]

No. Romans 8:7 is entirely consistent with Romans 7 being a description of the Jew under Torah. In Romans 8:6-8:

6The mind of sinful man[e] is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; 7the sinful mind[f] is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. 8Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God.

We obviously agree that this is describing the unbeliever. What does it say about the non-believer - that his state of mind leads to death and that the sinful mind cannot do good. These are precisely the same things that Paul says in Romans 7:

11For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death

For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out.

Clearly the Christian does have the ability to carry out "good". So for that reason alone, we know Romans 7 is not characterising the Christian in any state.

But back to your objection: it is interesting that you gave only a snippet. Here is the whole text about the man "delighting in the law of God":

22For in my inner being I delight in God's law; 23but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members

Paul is saying that the "mind that delights" loses the battle to the law of sin. Paul's wording may be a tad confusing and I have some empathy for your point.

But Paul says so many things in Romans 7 that simply cannot be true of the Christian.

Paul say so many things in Romans 7 that cannot be anything other than a Christian !

The none-Christian doesn't rejoice in the Law of God , he despises it daily!

The none-Christian doesn't find inner conflict , there is no inner war between flesh and Spirit with those unregenerate.

The none Christian doesn't will to do the will of God but is stopped by his flesh , that would be one amazing excuse for every sinner on earth if such were the case ..... "I wanted to please God , I wanted to obey His Law , but my flesh wouldn't let me , and I had no inner Spiritual LIFE to mortify my flesh" !!!


Another main problem with your thesis is that you equate
Romans 8:6:

For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace


with Romans 7:9

For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.


yet anyone can see this will never mesh. Paul said that to be carnally minded is death , Paul also said he had died , past tense ! and this after sin revived !!!

but sin doesn't revive in an unregenerate , it abides always , even their best deeds are sins!

 

[expos4ever]

Not so sure about that - clearly Romans 1-3 is talking about a "general law."

Well that is certainly not the case in respect to Romans 3:28:

28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law

In this case, Paul is clearly talking about the Torah.

That this is the case is borne out by verse 29, a verse which makes no sense if "good works" or a "or obedience to general law" are in view in verse 28, but makes perfect sense if the works of Torah are what Paul is talking about:

29Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too,

The problem is that "good works" are equally problematic for Jew and Gentile - we see this in the first half of Romans 3. It is only the works of Torah that discriminate Jew from Gentile, not "good works". So, in verse 29, Paul is clearly saying "God is God of the Gentiles and the Jews - He does not favour those who do the works of Torah - that is the Jews."

Having said this, I do agree that there are cases in Romans 1-3, certainly in 2, where Paul does indeed use the word "law" to denote something other than the Torah.

 

[expos4ever]

Your position on Romans 7 is demonstrably incorrect. Regardless of the answer to the question of what the status of the Christian is in respect to sin, including what other texts have to say about the question, including Galatians 5, Romans 7 is not relevant to resolving that issue.

what nonsense !

I understand that it might be frustrating for you to be presented with arguments that challenge your position. But the material in Romans 7 cannot possibly describe the state of the Christian. Each of the following statements of Paul from Romans 7 are demonstrably false in respect to the Christian:

Once I was alive apart from law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died

Clearly a false statement in relation to the Christian - sin has not sprung to life in Paul's experience as a Christian and thereby caused his death

For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death

Paul, as a Christian has been put to death? Obviously not.

but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin

Paul, as a Christian, is unspiritual and in slavery to sin. Obviously not.

And so on.

 

[cygnusx1]

But when Paul refers to the "law" and the "commandment" in Romans 7, he is obviously referring to the Torah - the Law of Moses - he is not talking about some abstract general moral law or principle. As elsewhere in Romans, the "law" for Paul is the Torah. That the Torah is specifically in view in Romans 7 is confirmed here:

Certainly not! Indeed I would not have known what sin was except through the law For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, "Do not covet"

This is a clear reference to the Torah and one of the commandments. Paul is not talking about legalism here. He is making a more specific point about the Torah and its effect on the Jew.

I don't think a case can be made that Paul as a Jew being under "Do not covet" is anything other than what a Gentile is under , if it were then there would be two distinct Laws of God by which men are judged and men would be condemned differently . Your driving a wedge between Torah and God's moral Law over all mankind is an invention of your mind... there is only one Law of God!

Romans 3

"Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

didn't you as a Gentile know that stealing was wrong ? and yet we find this same prohibition in Torah ! Coincidence ? hardly !!

The whole point of Romans 7 is that Christians are not only free from the power of sin (Romans 6) but free from the power that causes sin ; fallen nature under God's Law

your position reminds me very much of those who say "God is here speaking anthropomorphically " which at times may be the case but what does that convey ?...... in other words what exactly does the so called fallen nature of a JEW struggling to keep Torah have to do with a Christian ? Nothing , unless the text is relevant to CHRISTIAN experience it is a rabbit trail! (Romans 7 )

furthermore taking your view would lead to a very different understanding by Christians depending upon whether they are Jew or Gentile ; certainly reading this passage to a mixed congregation of Christians must inspire confusion ; for HALF of them have been set free from The Law of God , having died to it , while the rest are left guessing whether their so called "moral -code" quite fits the paradigm !

 

[expos4ever]

This is because Romans 7 constitutes Paul's reflections of the condition of the Jew under Torah.

which helps the Christian , how ?

What Paul is writing in Romans 7 is part of a thread begun in 3, picked up in 5 and then addressed in 9 and 11. Paul is mounting the argument that God has used the Torah to "harden" the Jew in order to effect a great act of redemption for his worldwide family of both Jews and Gentiles. This is Paul's point in this material from Romans 9 - the Jew hardened by Torah is the vessel of wrath, not the pre-destined lost as is commonly believed:

Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?
22What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?

And this helps the Christian to understand the debt he owes to the Jew and how he needs to be humble. Paul picks up that very theme in Romans 11:

You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." 20Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid.

The implications of the texts in my previous post have not been addressed. Here they are again:

Once I was alive apart from law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. 10I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death

show how Paul was alive apart from Law , he was born a Jew , he had never been alive apart from the Law until he became a Christian .

Paul is not talking about himself as a specific individual here in Romans 7. He uses the "I" as a rhetorical device to refer to the Jews as a people living under Torah. He does this in other places in his writings, at time making "I" denote Paul as a "typical Jew" and in other places making "I" denote Paul as a "typical Christian".

Paul is describing how the giving of the Torah revealed the sin of the Jew and thus condemned the Jew. Paul is re-describing the events of Mt Sinai here - explaining that the Torah, strangely, has caused the Jew to become even more sinful, hardening the Jew for God's redemptive purposes. And Paul underscores this in Romans 11 where he reflects on how the hardening of the Jew has indeed had salvific effect:

Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in.

And this, of course, is what the potter account is about - God has hardened the Jews so that the world can be blessed.

This cannot be a description of the ongoing Christian experiences.

it is. Galatians also shows the same thing , legalism resulting in "death" .

No. I do not deny that legalism might indeed result in death. But that is not what Paul is talking about in Romans 7. He may well be talking about it in Galatians, but he is not talking about it in Romans 7.

Paul says things in Romans 7 that simply cannot be true of the Christian as has been clearly shown.

 

[cygnusx1]

I understand that it might be frustrating for you to be presented with arguments that challenge your position. But the material in Romans 7 cannot possibly describe the state of the Christian. Each of the following statements of Paul from Romans 7 are demonstrably false in respect to the Christian:

Once I was alive apart from law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died

Clearly a false statement in relation to the Christian - sin has not sprung to life in Paul's experience as a Christian and thereby caused his death

define "death" ... until you do , there is no way we are even on the same page .

For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death

Paul, as a Christian has been put to death? Obviously not.

but as a Jew Paul was put to death ? hardly !!!! did he get Mark to pen this epistle

but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin

Paul, as a Christian, is unspiritual and in slavery to sin. Obviously not.

And so on.

Context ! he is not saying , hey guys I being a Jew used to be unspiritual (Gentiles don't have this problem guys) and I was in slavery to sin because I was a Jew , (the Gentiles don't suffer slavery to sin folks)

It has nothing to do with race but fallen human nature , which resides in every Christian ; just go back over the chapter and look at that all important clause , nothing good dwells within me , THAT IS < IN MY FLESH " .... that is the context of this chapter , an inner conflict born by a a fallen human nature , not a RACE issue !

"as to the Law blameless " fits really well with your view of Romans 7 , NOT !

 

[AndOne]

Having said this, I do agree that there are cases in Romans 1-3, certainly in 2, where Paul does indeed use the word "law" to denote something other than the Torah.

Which is the only point I was trying to make....

 

[Hismessenger]

There is no Fatal Flaw in predestination other than the "Fatal Flaw" of not understanding that God is in total control of His creation and it is running just the way He planned it. For without Him you would not even be able to debate the issue of any flaws let alone predestination.

hismessenger

 

[nobdysfool]

As has been pointed out, the "Fatal Flaw" is in so-called "Responsible Grace", which denies Predestination (thereby denying the Sovereignty of God over all of His Creation), and promotes man-centered and man-actuated salvation, along with a salvation that is so tenuous and slippery that it can be lost at any moment, and provides no assurance to the Believer apart from their own efforts to maintain and retain their salvation. It's entire focus seems to be that Salvation can, and often is, lost,and that God has only provided opportunity for salvation, rather than actually securing Salvation for the Believer. It postulates lost mankind as having the ability at any time to turn to God of their own free will, and of those who have never heard the Gospel, an alternate means of attaining heaven, apart from Jesus Christ.

And the creator and chief proponent of this doctrine wonders why there is so much opposition to it.....

 

[drstevej]

For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.

 

[expos4ever]

Paul describes sin coming to life and his "death" resulting. This cannot be a description of the state of the believer -

sure it is , he didn't "die" as a JEW because of sin!

As pointed out in a post that was written subsequent to your post, Paul is using the "I" to denote all of Israel living under Torah - he is not speaking of himself literally. He is making a broad generalization about what happens when the Jews received Torah - the Torah brought nothing but death and judgement to them.

But all such things aside, we know that Romans 7 cannot describe the state of the Christian for the simple fact that there is no possible way the following statement Paul makes in Romans 7 can be true of the Christian:

For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out

This simply cannot be true for the Christian in any state. If a person is a Christian, they have the Spirit - this is Paul's argument in Romans 8. And this gives the Christian the capability to do right.

There is no way that a Christian cannot do what is good. And yet that is precisely what Paul says of the person he describes in Romans 7.