"Fatal Flaw" in predestinary theory

[nobdysfool]

You.

You're literally making up translations as you go and then refusing to provide any justification for it.

You're ignoring clear context in order to force verses to speak to things they were never intended to speak to.

You're cherrypicking connotative definitions of Greek words in order to construct Frankenstein-style verses to support your teachings.

You're ignoring fundamental linguistic forms in order to attempt to draw parallels based on the use of similar generic nouns.



Yeah...coming from someone who embraced the unbiblical doctrine of Annihilationism based on a tract from the Worldwide Church of God, I hardly think you're in a position to lecture us on the dangers of letting literature lead one astray.



Boy, if that isn't the pot calling the kettle black! You systematically ignore arguments that blow holes in your teachings. That is documented fact.

The fact of the matter is, you simply post Scriptures over and over again and then claim your position is "fully backed by Scripture." Satan did the same thing tempting Jesus in the wilderness; my point being that simply quoting Scripture does not automatically confer truth upon the positions those Scriptures are used to support. The positions you claim are "fully backed by Scripture" are built upon flawed hermeneutics, atrocious linguistics, and grossly fallacious logic. These things have been demonstrated countless times, yet you are incorrigible. You boldly proclaim that you are tearing Calvinism apart, when in fact it's here for all to see that you continue to ignore or dismiss the most devestating critiques of your teachings and cast all manner of fallacious arguments at the others. There are glaring errors here that cannot be ignored, but you defiantly do so anyway, claiming victory as your ship sinks.

Your entire doctrinal structure is built upon one thing: losing salvation. From your earlier times on LBMB and the Pizza Parlor warning all those folks against falling away, to the time here at CF, your teachings have shown a clear pattern of development. It becomes most clear when doctrines like justification and sanctification are explored. Your definitions of those doctrines morph to whatever will accomodate or lend support do your doctrine of lost salvation. It doesn't matter that your doctrine of justification and definition of salvation are well outside orthodox historical Christianity, so long as they fit up with your core belief that Christians have no security whatsoever in their salvation. In short, your doctrine is more born of pragmatism than actual Scriptural study.

"Responsible Grace" theology is dead. These threads are nothing more than the equivalent of Weekend at Bernie's.

LOL! I need to watch that one again...funny movie....

The picture I get in my mind is Calvinists standing shoulder to shoulder on the field of battle, unbloodied and unbowed, and Ben, limping away with a broken arm, bruises from head to toe, dragging one leg, barely able to stand, one eye swollen shut, a cauliflower ear, broken fingers, his armor dented, and pieces missing, his sword broken off at the hilt, mumbling to himself "I guess I showed those guys! I destroyed those Calvinists"!

 

[heymikey80]

Belief is repentance. Belief is "action" --- see Matt7:24-27. Belief is both "causal", and "simultaneous" --- because when a person believes, he necessarily repents and receives the Son and the Spirit.

You're approaching "belief" as "mere mental assent", which THEN receives justification and adoption. And that explains why you think there is a place of "sinning-SAVED", because while we're willfully sinning we'll be ok as long as we have mental assent to Jesus.

Belief in your view demands certain actions and then God responds to those actions. Why? Because He's beholdin' to us. He promised, we done it, now show us the money -- at least as long as we can muster up this gut-level belief.

We're simply saying it flatly -- God isn't responding to human actions, He's acting on His Own GRACE. He's changing us, He's cutting us to the heart, He's bearing a new spirit in us, and that spirit believes.

But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God. Rom 2:29​

 

[cygnusx1]

Belief in your view demands certain actions and then God responds to those actions. Why? Because He's beholdin' to us. He promised, we done it, now show us the money -- at least as long as we can muster up this gut-level belief.

We're simply saying it flatly -- God isn't responding to human actions, He's acting on His Own GRACE. He's changing us, He's cutting us to the heart, He's bearing a new spirit in us, and that spirit believes.

But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God. Rom 2:29
​

Thanks Mikey !!

as often is the case a scripture may read two diferent ways , with your intro , that last scripture , Rom 2:29 ........ "his praise is not from man but from God " makes more sense

It isn't ;

his praise (that men praise a man) is not from man but from God , but rather ;

" his praise (to God) is not from man but from God (who works in us)

 

[nobdysfool]

Quoted by Ben:
Calvinism fails to address the reason why Christians still sin.
Quoted by Cygnus:
To leave room for the EXERCISE of Faith​

In your view, men have not the option to believe (savingly), if they are not "sovereignly regenerated". And if regenerated, then belief is irresistible (the "I" in TULIP).

men have the ability to believe savingly while unregenerate. Nothing is stopping them from doing so, but they won't, because belief and choice are controlled by desire, and the unregenerate do not desire God. Regeneration re-orders the desires of the heart, and opens the heart to God. Belief is the only rational response to one whose heart has been regenerated, and opened to the Gospel. the I in TULIP is Irresistible Grace, not Irresistible Belief. Once again, you show your ignorance of Calvinist teaching.

Will you consider that sin can "deceive to unbelief"? It can in
Heb3:12-13. It can in James1:14-16. The reality is that all sin is wrought by "taking our eyes off of Christ".

Then how do you explain the sins of the unregenerate, who have never had their eyes on Christ? You're grasping at straws, Ben.

Hence the warnings to "abide", to "set our minds on things above, not on earthly things" (Col3).

Which warnings and encouragements give us something to focus on, and a clear method to continue in Him, grow in His grae, and grow in sanctification, the Holy Spirit working within us by means of His Word to do those things.

Quoted by Ben:
Calvinists "rail" about God's sovereignty --- why isn't God sovereign enough to regenerate completely?
Quoted by Cygnus:
a very poor question considering Regeneration is complete.​

There's the problem, isn't it? We still have the choice to sin.

Regeneration does not take away that choice, Ben, No Calvinist has EVER said that it did. Regeneration is complete, but regeneration is not sinlessness. that's your major error here, and one that you refuse to correct, even though several of us have clearly explained it to you, and shown you where you're wrong. you just can't accept a Calvinist showing you to be in error.

If "sin" equates to "unbelief" (as we just cited Heb3:12-13, and James1:14-16), then why is "sinlessness", irresistible?

Unbelief is a sin, but sin is not all summed up in unbelief. That's ridiculous. Once again, you try to equate dissimilar terms, if it will help bolster your clearly failing doctrine.

"Sinlessness" irresistible? What in the world are you talking about? That doesn't even make sense, Ben! No Calvinist ever made that claim! Not one. You're talking nonsense.

You're trying to make the "I" in "TULIP" apply to belief, and failing to recognize that unbelief and sinfulness, are the same.

No, YOU tried to do that earlier in this post. Unbelief is a sin, but it is not the whole of sinfulness. You keep trying to equate terms which are not equal. It's no wonder that your doctrine is such a mess! You're clearly grasping at anything you can think of to rescue you from the complete collapse of your false doctrines. You're not even thinking things through. You're desperate, Ben, and it's showing more and more with every post.

 

[heymikey80]

Aside, nobdysfool, I'm just baffled by this constant beratement of them telling us what we believe.

No citations, no nothing. Just allegations, again and again and again and again and again.

If they were lawyers they'd be laughed out of court for lack of evidence. If this were a real debate they'd have lost by the second round, making wild statements without support.

I think it's time to start standardizing some of these cool icons whenever someone makes that pat "the Calvinist says" or "you believe" ... here are some selections:



I especially like

 

[nobdysfool]

Aside, nobdysfool, I'm just baffled by this constant beratement of them telling us what we believe.

No citations, no nothing. Just allegations, again and again and again and again and again.

If they were lawyers they'd be laughed out of court for lack of evidence. If this were a real debate they'd have lost by the second round, making wild statements without support.

I think it's time to start standardizing some of these cool icons whenever someone makes that pat "the Calvinist says" or "you believe" ... here are some selections:



I especially like

LOL! Yes, it's truly amazing that the non-Calvinists consider themselves to be more expert on what we believe, than we are. And you're right, in a courtroom, they wouldn't stand a chance, and a in real debate would have embarrassed themselves very quickly. In reality they have done so, they just won't face up to it.

The icon idea is a good one. I wondered where they came from.

Blessings, bro!

 

[cygnusx1]

There's the problem, isn't it? We still have the choice to sin.

strictly speaking ben , NO!

Romans 6

6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

sinning isn't so much a 'choice' as a serious defect .

When Paul said "how can we who died to sin still live in it " ?

he ruled out all Christian liberty to sin!

to "decide to sin" is incongruous with the New Nature.

Romans 7

Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. 7:13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful. 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. 7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

Paul wasn't denying Christians fall into sin (through temptations and lack of watching) , he was denying that Christians have any liberty to sin , remember God hasn't placed us in Eden but in Christ .

Just think about that ben .

You really need to distinguish between choice (free-will) and obligation ben.

Here's how scripture distinguishes between liberty and obligation ;


1 Corinthians 9

9:1 Am I not an apostle? am I not free? have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? are not ye my work in the Lord? 9:2If I be not an apostle unto others, yet doubtless I am to you: for the seal of mine apostleship are ye in the Lord. 9:3 Mine answer to them that do examine me is this, 9:4 Have we not power to eat and to drink? 9:5 Have we not power to lead about a sister, a wife, as well as other apostles, and as the brethren of the Lord, and Cephas? 9:6 Or I only and Barnabas, have not we power to forbear working? 9:7 Who goeth a warfare any time at his own charges? who planteth a vineyard, and eateth not of the fruit thereof? or who feedeth a flock, and eateth not of the milk of the flock? 9:8Say I these things as a man? or saith not the law the same also? 9:9 For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen? 9:10 Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope. 9:11 If we have sown unto you spiritual things, is it a great thing if we shall reap your carnal things? 9:12 If others be partakers of this power over you, are not we rather? Nevertheless we have not used this power; but suffer all things, lest we should hinder the gospel of Christ. 9:13 Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar? 9:14 Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel. 9:15But I have used none of these things: neither have I written these things, that it should be so done unto me: for it were better for me to die, than that any man should make my glorying void.

9:16 For though I preach the gospel, I have nothing to glory of: for necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel!

9:17 For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me.


9:18 What is my reward then? Verily that, when I preach the gospel, I may make the gospel of Christ without charge, that I abuse not my power in the gospel. 9:19 For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more.


Verse 17 speaks of liberty , Paul had liberty NOT to take a wage for his work as a missionary even though he had every right under God's Law to be payed.

contrariwise ,

Verse 16 speaks not of liberty /choice , but of obligation ! Woe is me if I do not preach the Gospel , clearly such isn't an option for Paul!

Neither does scripture speak of sin as an option for Christians ben , sin strictly speaking is not something that Christians have liberty/license for. ... and to suggest otherwise is not merely simplistic but hostile to every New Testament sotereological doctrine.


http://ebible.org/bible/kjv/

 

[Rightglory]

nobydsfool,

You may think I am picking on you, but you have a knack of making such contradictory statements relative to historical, orthodox Christianity. The statement below cannot be supported by any scripture that I am aware of, unless you also believe that every human being is already saved.
I understand it must be understood and is part of the Calvinist interpretation, but where would Calvin even get this idea?

Ben would have us believe that unless one consciously asks forgiveness (repents) of every sin he commits, after being saved, those sins will be held against him, and he will not be covered, and will be held accountable for those sins, even though Christ already died for them.

Christ died for the sin of the world. He atoned, propitiated the sin of the world. No place that I am aware of does it ever say Christ forgave sins on the Cross. Rom 3:25, Heb 2:17, Heb 3, I John 2:2, I John 4:10,
Man is responsible for every sin he does commit. Unless one repents of them, confesses them they will NOT be forgiven. That is the state of an unbeliever. That is how a believer can become an unbeliever by not confessing his sins. We sin every day and every day we need to confess those sins to remain under His Blood, to remain In Christ, to remain reconciled to Christ.
When we confess those sins, He is able to forgive them, BECAUSE they have already been atoned for ON THE CROSS. Christ is the current High Priest. That is why we confess to Him and then He mediates us to the Father and we are acceptable, justified, reconciled again, made right with God (righteous).
That is why the Christian life is all about sinning less, ridding ourselves of bad sinful habits, which is being transformed into Christ's Likeness. We do that with the help of the Holy Spirit, that is the ONLY reason He indwells us. But we can reject His assistance and quench the Spirit. by desiring to be in the flesh rather than in the spirit using His Spirit to help us. That is God working in and through us to DO HIS WILL. God does not do HIS will through us.

Then how do you explain the sins of the unregenerate, who have never had their eyes on Christ? You're grasping at straws, Ben.

Every single soul that ever will live has been drawn by Christ. Every single soul will give an active answer to His call to come. None will be left out. They (we) all shall appear at the judgement to give an account of what we did with the knowledge of God, the measure of Grace He gave to every human being.

Which warnings and encouragements give us something to focus on, and a clear method to continue in Him, grow in His grae, and grow in sanctification, the Holy Spirit working within us by means of His Word to do those things.

but this is a contradiction of your view that man cannot lose salvation, God accomplishes His will through man, why would man need a Gospel?
Does God need His own Gospel to accomplish His will?
Why do you say "continue in Him" when man cannot even choose to be or not to be in Him?
Growing in sanctification has no purpose if we are already sealed and delivered and nothing can change in this life.

Even if you accept that a believers sins are forgiven on the Cross then when the Bible speaks of forgiveness this would be completely redundant and superflous. I'm sure you pray the Lord's prayer. This was given as an example for believers, but based on your understanding, asking forgiveness is meaningless since it is a completed fact.
Where in scripture can one even get a hint that Christ forgave sins from the Cross?
In your view, is Christ today a High Priest, or not? Why must He mediate between God and man?
In your view, this was instantaneously done for all believers from the Cross?

Why do you insist on portraying this as falling away, and hardening the heart? Those are indicative of much deeper problems, not the day to day mistakes we all make. You are promoting a graceless salvation, where at any given moment, one may be saved or unsaved, depending on what he is doing or saying at that moment. You just don't have the stones to admit it.

Much deeper problems are begun by just one tiny little sin. If we become lax in our daily living, if we become callous and we continue to disregard our spiritual life IN Christ, we shall begin to die spiritually. Harding of the heart is doing particular sins and thinking or rationalizing that they are not sins or not really bad sins. We begin to justify our sinful ways.

You totally avoided what I said. You clearly do not understand Justification, and the extent of Christ's sacrifice, and the Father's application of it to the Believer. These are fundamental issues and it is clear that you do not understand them. This is not about Calvinism at this point, this is about basic, bedrock doctrine.

Understanding the scriptural meaning and the meaning of a Calvinist interpretation are two distinctly different things. It is ONLY about Calvinism, since scripture does not support a Calvinist understanding of justification, what Christ's sacrifice entailed and how it is applied for believers.

 

[JDS]

nobydsfool,

You may think I am picking on you, but you have a knack of making such contradictory statements relative to historical, orthodox Christianity. The statement below cannot be supported by any scripture that I am aware of, unless you also believe that every human being is already saved.
I understand it must be understood and is part of the Calvinist interpretation, but where would Calvin even get this idea?


Christ died for the sin of the world. He atoned, propitiated the sin of the world. No place that I am aware of does it ever say Christ forgave sins on the Cross. Rom 3:25, Heb 2:17, Heb 3, I John 2:2, I John 4:10,
Man is responsible for every sin he does commit. Unless one repents of them, confesses them they will NOT be forgiven. That is the state of an unbeliever. That is how a believer can become an unbeliever by not confessing his sins. We sin every day and every day we need to confess those sins to remain under His Blood, to remain In Christ, to remain reconciled to Christ.
When we confess those sins, He is able to forgive them, BECAUSE they have already been atoned for ON THE CROSS. Christ is the current High Priest. That is why we confess to Him and then He mediates us to the Father and we are acceptable, justified, reconciled again, made right with God (righteous).
That is why the Christian life is all about sinning less, ridding ourselves of bad sinful habits, which is being transformed into Christ's Likeness. We do that with the help of the Holy Spirit, that is the ONLY reason He indwells us. But we can reject His assistance and quench the Spirit. by desiring to be in the flesh rather than in the spirit using His Spirit to help us. That is God working in and through us to DO HIS WILL. God does not do HIS will through us.
Every single soul that ever will live has been drawn by Christ. Every single soul will give an active answer to His call to come. None will be left out. They (we) all shall appear at the judgement to give an account of what we did with the knowledge of God, the measure of Grace He gave to every human being.
but this is a contradiction of your view that man cannot lose salvation, God accomplishes His will through man, why would man need a Gospel?
Does God need His own Gospel to accomplish His will?
Why do you say "continue in Him" when man cannot even choose to be or not to be in Him?
Growing in sanctification has no purpose if we are already sealed and delivered and nothing can change in this life.

Even if you accept that a believers sins are forgiven on the Cross then when the Bible speaks of forgiveness this would be completely redundant and superflous. I'm sure you pray the Lord's prayer. This was given as an example for believers, but based on your understanding, asking forgiveness is meaningless since it is a completed fact.
Where in scripture can one even get a hint that Christ forgave sins from the Cross?
In your view, is Christ today a High Priest, or not? Why must He mediate between God and man?
In your view, this was instantaneously done for all believers from the Cross?
Much deeper problems are begun by just one tiny little sin. If we become lax in our daily living, if we become callous and we continue to disregard our spiritual life IN Christ, we shall begin to die spiritually. Harding of the heart is doing particular sins and thinking or rationalizing that they are not sins or not really bad sins. We begin to justify our sinful ways.
Understanding the scriptural meaning and the meaning of a Calvinist interpretation are two distinctly different things. It is ONLY about Calvinism, since scripture does not support a Calvinist understanding of justification, what Christ's sacrifice entailed and how it is applied for believers.

The High Priest went into the Holy of Holies with the blood to make atonement for the sins of Israel. All of Israel. However, all Israel was not righteous. The writer of Hebrews says that atonment with animal (innocent) blood was needed but it could not make the offerers perfect but they must offer it once a year and they still had conciousness of sins. However, the blood of Jesus Christ was offered once for the sins of the whole world and and all of the world is atoned for. Why else does anyone think God has not judged us? The blood of Jesus Christ has taken away sin. God does not impute our sins to us while we are living until his appointed time of wrath. It is appointed unto man once to die, he says, but after this the judgment.

19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ’s stead, be ye reconciled to God.
21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

This is good news for every single person on earth and there is no room here for disagreement. There is cause for rejoicing! Praise his wonderful name!

 

[nobdysfool]

nobydsfool,

You may think I am picking on you, but you have a knack of making such contradictory statements relative to historical, orthodox Christianity. The statement below cannot be supported by any scripture that I am aware of, unless you also believe that every human being is already saved.
I understand it must be understood and is part of the Calvinist interpretation, but where would Calvin even get this idea?


Christ died for the sin of the world. He atoned, propitiated the sin of the world. No place that I am aware of does it ever say Christ forgave sins on the Cross. Rom 3:25, Heb 2:17, Heb 3, I John 2:2, I John 4:10,
Man is responsible for every sin he does commit. Unless one repents of them, confesses them they will NOT be forgiven. That is the state of an unbeliever. That is how a believer can become an unbeliever by not confessing his sins. We sin every day and every day we need to confess those sins to remain under His Blood, to remain In Christ, to remain reconciled to Christ.
When we confess those sins, He is able to forgive them, BECAUSE they have already been atoned for ON THE CROSS. Christ is the current High Priest. That is why we confess to Him and then He mediates us to the Father and we are acceptable, justified, reconciled again, made right with God (righteous).
That is why the Christian life is all about sinning less, ridding ourselves of bad sinful habits, which is being transformed into Christ's Likeness. We do that with the help of the Holy Spirit, that is the ONLY reason He indwells us. But we can reject His assistance and quench the Spirit. by desiring to be in the flesh rather than in the spirit using His Spirit to help us. That is God working in and through us to DO HIS WILL. God does not do HIS will through us.
Every single soul that ever will live has been drawn by Christ. Every single soul will give an active answer to His call to come. None will be left out. They (we) all shall appear at the judgement to give an account of what we did with the knowledge of God, the measure of Grace He gave to every human being.
but this is a contradiction of your view that man cannot lose salvation, God accomplishes His will through man, why would man need a Gospel?
Does God need His own Gospel to accomplish His will?
Why do you say "continue in Him" when man cannot even choose to be or not to be in Him?
Growing in sanctification has no purpose if we are already sealed and delivered and nothing can change in this life.

Even if you accept that a believers sins are forgiven on the Cross then when the Bible speaks of forgiveness this would be completely redundant and superflous. I'm sure you pray the Lord's prayer. This was given as an example for believers, but based on your understanding, asking forgiveness is meaningless since it is a completed fact.
Where in scripture can one even get a hint that Christ forgave sins from the Cross?
In your view, is Christ today a High Priest, or not? Why must He mediate between God and man?
In your view, this was instantaneously done for all believers from the Cross?
Much deeper problems are begun by just one tiny little sin. If we become lax in our daily living, if we become callous and we continue to disregard our spiritual life IN Christ, we shall begin to die spiritually. Harding of the heart is doing particular sins and thinking or rationalizing that they are not sins or not really bad sins. We begin to justify our sinful ways.
Understanding the scriptural meaning and the meaning of a Calvinist interpretation are two distinctly different things. It is ONLY about Calvinism, since scripture does not support a Calvinist understanding of justification, what Christ's sacrifice entailed and how it is applied for believers.

RG, there is no point in me responding in depth to this, as you have misinterpreted and misread what I said and are filtering it through your EO beliefs. Nothing will be resolved by doing so. I am not going to, nor should I have to, explain completely every single thing I say and mean every time I say it. I have no quarrel with you. Let's leave it at that, and move on.

 

[MamaZ]

Those whom do not believe are judged already.

 

[Rightglory]

nobdysfool,

RG, there is no point in me responding in depth to this, as you have misinterpreted and misread what I said and are filtering it through your EO beliefs. Nothing will be resolved by doing so. I am not going to, nor should I have to, explain completely every single thing I say and mean every time I say it. I have no quarrel with you. Let's leave it at that, and move on.

I understand fully what you are saying. It is Calvinism which does not align with Scripture and historical Christianity. That is why it is called Calvinism and not Scripture or recognized as historical Christianity but a man-made development which is still being reformed.
Much has been resolved. Readers can see the differences and then study those differences and make up their own minds.
You have differences within Calvinism and a much larger differences and more from others with the protestant melieu of sola scriptura. None are ever going to align because they are all man's individual interpretations which cannot be refuted. They have been argued by protestants for 400+ years as is quite obvious in the debate between Ben and all of you Calvinists. It will continue to be so and will get much worse with continued fragmentation. It will become much more secularized and humanistic with very little relevance as a gospel, let alone the Gospel.

 

[expos4ever]

Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. 7:13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful. 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. 7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

Paul wasn't denying Christians fall into sin (through temptations and lack of watching) , he was denying that Christians have any liberty to sin , remember God hasn't placed us in Eden but in Christ .

This text from Romans 7 has nothing to do with the experience of the Christian and therefore is entirely irrelevant to any discussion of what is fundamentally going on when the Christian sins -as we all know s/he does.

Romans 7 does not deal with the experiences of the believer. It is Paul's reflection on the plight of the Jew under Torah, analyzed from his perspective as a Christian.

Would the Christian say this about his experience as a Christian:

Once I was alive apart from law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. 10I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death

Of course not. Paul is looking back here to the time when the advent of the Law - the Torah - brought judgement and death. This is true of the Jew under Torah, not the Christian.

Would the Christian say this about his experience as a Christian:

But in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it produced death in me through what was good, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful

Sin produces death in the Christian? Sin becomes utterly sinful in the Christian? Of course not.

Please do not misunderstand Romans 7. It is not a transcript of Christian experience, for the alleged "elect" or otherwise. It is what Paul knows to be the case about the plight of the Jew under Torah, as seen from Paul's present state - that of a redeemed saint.

 

[AndOne]

nobdysfool,

It will become much more secularized and humanistic with very little relevance as a gospel, let alone the Gospel.

Just out of curiosity - what do you think the gospel is?

 

[cygnusx1]

This text from Romans 7 has nothing to do with the experience of the Christian and therefore is entirely irrelevant to any discussion of what is fundamentally going on when the Christian sins -as we all know s/he does.

That view has been thoroughly dismissed by Packer Pink and many others ..... the sin nature is not eradicated within a Christian , Paul spoke about one who had been freed and who subsequently moved back under the dominion sin through the Law , ONLY the Christian has been freed from sin !

Romans 7 does not deal with the experiences of the believer. It is Paul's reflection on the plight of the Jew under Torah, analyzed from his perspective as a Christian.

wrong , go read Galatians , there is conflict within the Christian experience.

Galatians
Chapter 5

1. Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
2. Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
3. For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
4. Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
5. For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

v16-17

This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

Would the Christian say this about his experience as a Christian:

Once I was alive apart from law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. 10I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death

Of course not. Paul is looking back here to the time when the advent of the Law - the Torah - brought judgement and death. This is true of the Jew under Torah, not the Christian.

then all I can say is you have never really understood conversion , have you attempted to please God , how ... and did you not find conflict within ?

Martin Luther was certainly no Jew , but he attempted to please God by works , even works of the Law , later he re-discovered salvation by Grace through faith , this is the foundation of the Reformation.

Would the Christian say this about his experience as a Christian:

But in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it produced death in me through what was good, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful

Sin produces death in the Christian? Sin becomes utterly sinful in the Christian? Of course not.

it depends if a Christian has been attempting to please God by obeying God's Law ... it isn't simply the Jews who this applies to , Gentiles have the Law of God written on their hearts , see Romans 2

v 14 , 15

1. For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
2. Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

Please do not misunderstand Romans 7. It is not a transcript of Christian experience, for the alleged "elect" or otherwise. It is what Paul knows to be the case about the plight of the Jew under Torah, as seen from Paul's present state - that of a redeemed saint.

Nonsense !

Your argument doesn't fit with scripture as a whole , do you not struggle , do you not commit sin against your better judgement and against what you REALLY want to do ... of course you do , not until Glory does this inner conflict cease .

the real blatant mistake of taking Paul as speaking of his experience outside of Christianity is that it does great violence to the flow of Romans 6 , 7 and 8 ;
The view that Paul is speaking of his pre-Christian experience is exposed thus ;

Romans 6 ; Instruction to all Christians that sin shall not have power over a Christian because sin finds it's power through the flesh which HAS BEEN crucified with Christ

Romans 7 ; *** my Jewish exp , just thought you might like to know***

Romans 8 , back to the CHRISTIAN experience ; walk by the Spirit !

see it's out of step.

This is how it really reads ;

Romans 6 ; Instruction to all Christians that sin shall not have power over a Christian because sin finds it's power through the flesh which HAS BEEN crucified with Christ

Romans 7 ; Further instruction to the Christian that he has been freed from sin because he has been freed from the Law , legalism is a REAL problem for Christians and causes them to sin and become dead again towards God's influence ;

Romans 8 ; BUT thanks be to God we have been set free from sin (Romans 6) set free from God's Law (Romans 7) and set free from death (Romans 8) .

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]the classic interpretation of Augustine and Thomas Aquinas, of Luther and Calvin, that in Rom. 7 Paul describes his continuing experience as a believer.[/FONT]

 

[cygnusx1]

Romans 8:7 says that the unregenerate person is not subject to the law of God. thus Romans 7:22 "For I delight in the law of God after the inward man": is NOT speaking of a none Christian !

Romans 7 verses 18-19 and 21: "I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) dwelleth no good thing; for to will is present with me, but how to perform that which is good I find not. For the good that I would, I do not; but the evil which I would not, that I do.... I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me."

why does Paul say nothing good dwells within him then qualify it with (that is in my FLESH) if he is speaking as a none Christian then nothing good dwells within , PERIOD ! No need for that qualification !

Romans 3 tells us that the unsaved person has no such longing to do the will of God: "There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.... There is none that doeth good, no, not one.... There is no fear of God before their eyes" (vv. 11-12, 18).

But there is every need for that qualification if he is speaking as a Christian for Christ dwells within !

 

[expos4ever]

That view has been thoroughly dismissed by Packer Pink and many others ..... the sin nature is not eradicated within a Christian , Paul spoke about one who had been freed and who subsequently moved back under the dominion sin through the Law , ONLY the Christian has been freed from sin !

Your position on Romans 7 is demonstrably incorrect. Regardless of the answer to the question of what the status of the Christian is in respect to sin, including what other texts have to say about the question, including Galatians 5, Romans 7 is not relevant to resolving that issue.

This is because Romans 7 constitutes Paul's reflections of the condition of the Jew under Torah. The implications of the texts in my previous post have not been addressed. Here they are again:

Once I was alive apart from law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. 10I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death

This cannot be a description of the ongoing Christian experiences. Paul describes sin coming to life and his "death" resulting. This cannot be a description of the state of the believer - accepting Christ does not cause sin to "spring to life".

This alone closes the door on any possibility that this text is about the experience of the Christian.

It is the Torah - the "commandment" that Paul refers to here - that caused sin to spring to life. Here Paul echoes a similar point he made in Romans 5 about the nature of the Torah and its strange purpose of actually making sin increase:

20The law was added so that the trespass might increase.

Now here is the other text I provided with a little more context:

11For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death. 12So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good. 13Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! But in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it produced death in me through what was good, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful.
14We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin.

Again, I am not, in this post, commenting on the status of Christian re sin. I am merely showing that this Romans 7 text is not describing the experience of the Christian and is therefore not relevant to that question - it is an analysis of the plight of the Jew under Torah. There are several things in the above text that rule out any characterization of the experience of the Christian:

1. Paul says that the Torah produced death in him. This is a statement that simply cannot be true of the Christian. Perhaps, as I think you are arguing, a believer who pursued Torah would indeed fall away and die. But this is not what Paul says - he is not talking about possibilities here - he says that death indeed did happen. This is precisley what happened to the Jew under Torah - it is certainly not the general experience of the Christian. If it were, we would be forced to conclude that being a Christian leads to death, which is obviously incorrect.

2. In verse 14, Paul characterizes himself as being "sold as a slave to sin". This is precisely the opposite of the status of the Christian. While a Christian can sin, he is not a "slave to sin". This is precisely the point of Romans 8 - that the Spirit delivers man from that state. So Paul cannot think that a Christian is in any sense "a slave to sin".

And then we have this statement, which simply cannot be true of the Christian:

For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out.

Again, this text alone suffices to rule out the possibility that Paul is talking about the experience of the Christian. As Paul will write in Romans 8, the Christian is given the Spirit precisely in order to allow him to do good.

There is absolutely no possibility that this text from Romans 7 is descriptive of the experience of the Christian.

 

[nobdysfool]

Then perhaps you should examine yourself to see whether you be in the faith. Or are you going to tell us that you never sin anymore, that you have totally and completely mastered your flesh, and believe in sinless perfection in this life?

 

[Rightglory]

Behe's Boy,

Just out of curiosity - what do you think the gospel is?

It is what was delivered to the Apostles who then gave it to the Early Church. It is what has been preserved by the Holy Spirit within the Body of Christ since that time.
It is not man's interpretation of a book called the Bible which is only a part of that Gospel. The Bible is part, the written part, of the Holy Tradition.

 

[cygnusx1]

There is absolutely no possibility that this text from Romans 7 is descriptive of the experience of the Christian.

then to a very large extent ROMANS 7 is completely irrelevant !