When is it Ethical to kill?

[Trevorocity]

Should homosexuals kill "Christians" who persecute them? And when is it appropriate to do so? Since "Christians" are subborning genocide is it justifiable to kill them to prevent them from gaining control of the government? Discuss.

 

[quatona]

Should homosexuals kill "Christians" who persecute them?

No.
I´m wondering: Have you seen any suggestions to that effect, or is that your owen proposal?

(and what should those homosexual Christians do who persecute homosexuals - kill themselves?)

And when is it appropriate to do so?

Right from the top of my head I can´t think of any such occasion.
Then again, I am a die-hard pacifist.

Since "Christians" are subborning genocide is it justifiable to kill them to prevent them from gaining control of the government?

I don´t know the word "subborning" (not a native English speaker here) and I can´t find it in my dictionary, so I don´t understand your premise - but generally I´m not for killing Christians to prevent them from gaining control of the government.

 

[Beanieboy]

Bob Enyart, a Christian shock jock equivalent to Howard Stern, but more articulate, used to have a web page called ShadowGov. In his fantasy Shadow Government, the US Government "returns" to its supposed Christian origins, replaces the Constitution with the Bible, and death penalties are carried out in his first 100 days, which included killing homosexuals (because God wants it, according to him), and adulterers. Ironically, Jesus, who could have cast the first stone, didn't, but that doesn't stop Enyart. To him, I am simply an "enemy of God" and thus, to be snuffed out.

However, as a Buddhist, and a child of God that takes my spiritual life very seriously, I struggle with the taking of any sentient life. When I first read about that in Buddhism, I thought it ridiculous. Why should I care about a caterpillar that finds it's way on my arm? Why not just throw it on the sidewalk, and not care if he is stepped on? But I read about the monks that would go out when it rained to sweep the worms off of the sidewalk lest anyone step on them.

But then I realized that life is life. God gave them life. Who am I to call myself greater than a bird, or a fly or a fish? I struggled with the idea of eating animals, when I could live on a vegetarian diet. At present, I stop and pause and thank the animal that gave his life for me so that I could live. And it would lead me to the idea of giving of oneself for others, and ultimately, back to Christ. I don't believe that he was required to die by God. However, Christ also didn't have to become man. He could have walked around as God, never sleep, never be human, but no one would understand how to then behave, so I believe he humbled himself to help us, to show us to what extent he loves us, even to die for us to make his point.

So, I began to meditate about it. One day, as I waited for the bus at the U of M, a caterpillar unfortunately mistook me for a plant or tree. I walked away from the waiting passengers, and put the caterpillar near greenery, where it could live safely without being trampled, and have something to eat. As I did that, I thought, "This isn't unlike how God must be with us. We are so small, and weak, and God is all. God is love. God is timeless, and yet, he cares so much, and simply wants to instill that same love within us, to love ourselves, love each other, and in so, love him.

And when one starts to care about the life and death of a caterpillar, how much more did I care about the life of another human being? How much more did I value life itself, and the miracle of it, thinking that for that caterpillar, it has a life. It is a pretty simple life, but it hatches, if finds food, it spins a coccoon, and emerges a beautiful butterfly. It's a pretty amazing life.

So, I can't, in good conscience, kill another being, take the life that God has given. Lately, I have been having weird dreams about someone breaking in to my apt, axing my partner and I. If I had a gun, would I kill the person? I honestly don't know.

A former boyfriend talked about this once with me and said, "You know, I would talk to him, I would try to calm him, give him what he wants, and try to persuade him not to kill us. But I couldn't shoot him, because I have no gun, nor would I, because I don't believe that violence solves anything. Ultimately, if he wanted to shoot me, I would simply have to sacrifice my name in peace."

My friend was describing the same attitude of Christ. Christ, I don't believe, had to die for God to forgive man. Christ had to simply remain human, and follow out his life. God did not intercede. Christ did not stop it. But his death and resurrection have been far stronger than the execution itself. The love he illustrated moved and moves people.

People like Malcolm X, who saw people of all races working and living in Harmony in Mecca, changed people, and his murder strengthened, not weakened, his message for equality, as did that of JFK and Martin Luther King, Jr.

Is it wrong to kill in self defense? I don't know. I wouldn't condemn anyone who did. Who among us doesn't cheer when the "bad guys" meet their demise in a movie? Who didn't feel an adreneline rush when Syler is killed in the Matrix, or Mr. Smith explodes? We not only don't feel guilty, we cheer it. We feel justice in seeking out revenge and retribution.

But I think that is the nature of man, not God, not Buddha. The nature of God is to exchange curse for blessing, to pray for those who harm you. There is a exercise in Buddhism for letting go of resentment and hatred toward another. You picture the person in front of you, covered in smog and dark smoke. You inhale deeply, inhaling the smoke and smog from them. You exhale brilliant sunshine upon them.

It is the opposite of what one would think: inhaling sunshine, exhaling the bad stuff. I thought it was a stupid exercise, but my boss was driving me crazy, and I really began to hate her. It stayed with me after work, and I didn't want that, so I began the exercise, begrudgingly. I inhaled her dark, stormy smoke, and exhaled sunlight, wondering why I should be kind to someone so cruel to me. Soon, I began to feel compassion for her. I stopped being angry, and started seeing that she was unhappy. I saw that she was insecure. The focus began to be on my loving kindness to her, rather than her actions toward me. And I felt myself begin to lighten, to heal, and rather than having smoke inside me, I had brilliant light, and peace.

So, that is my opinion and approach. I don't want to give anyone a reason to see me as a true threat, and justify their fear or hatred. Rather, I want to humble myself, come in peace, and trust that love is stronger than fear, and pray for their change of heart.

 

[Trevorocity]

I don´t know the word "subborning" (not a native English speaker here) and I can´t find it in my dictionary, so I don´t understand your premise - but generally I´m not for killing Christians to prevent them from gaining control of the government.

Suborn - to bribe or induce (someone) unlawfully or secretly to perform some misdeed or to commit a crime.

Why their very philosophy supports the idea that they would rather wipe-out all homosexuals than permit them to live (biblical) they deserve death. After all in such a world its Us vs. Them.

 

[Beanieboy]

Suborn - to bribe or induce (someone) unlawfully or secretly to perform some misdeed or to commit a crime.

Why their very philosophy supports the idea that they would rather wipe-out all homosexuals than permit them to live (biblical) they deserve death. After all in such a world its Us vs. Them.

I understand your reasoning. I have had friends that didn't know I was gay say that they wished they could line all of homos up against a wall and shoot them.

It was like being Jewish, and living in Nazi Germany.

However, of the Holocaust, whom do most people remember most? Anne Frank, who said that deep down, she believe that people were good at heart. Her simply journal, and eventual death, had far more impact than the killing of 6 million Jews by Hitler, who is now seen as a monster.

If you find yourself justified to kill Christians before they kill you, have you not become the very thing that you are fighting against?

 

[quatona]

Suborn - to bribe or induce (someone) unlawfully or secretly to perform some misdeed or to commit a crime.

Thanks!

Why their very philosophy supports the idea that they would rather wipe-out all homosexuals than permit them to live (biblical) they deserve death. After all in such a world its Us vs. Them.

Well, my world is not "us vs. them" and I don´t think I want to adopt such notions that I criticize others for. Maybe some kind of old-fashioned idea of integrity or something.
I don´t think anyone deserves death, and even if I felt that some people deserve death I wouldn´t make myself the judge who this is.

 

[rockytrails]

The hardest part of being a christian i think . Is to stand up for whats right no matter how we will be attacked by opponets inside or out side of Christianity yet never hate anyone..
Its not only the hardest thing it is really the impossable thing . God knows this to. Thats why he sent his spirit to be in us so through him we could even triumph over hatered that our old adams harbor.

If we are murdered by a homosexual wouldnt be a shame not to have that same forgivness on our lips and prayer in our hearts That Jesus had for us.

 

[stan1980]

Should homosexuals kill "Christians" who persecute them? And when is it appropriate to do so? Since "Christians" are subborning genocide is it justifiable to kill them to prevent them from gaining control of the government? Discuss.

No, it's not a war you can win, and I feel you are exaggerating the problem. <staff edit> All it would create is a lot of bloodshed. The ideal way is to learn to live together. I mean, think of the effort you would have to go to pull off the perfect murder, multiple times. If it is that bad, I'd just move somewhere more tolerant, much less effort!

 

[Trevorocity]

No, it's not a war you can win, and I feel you are exaggerating the problem. <staff edit> All it would create is a lot of bloodshed. The ideal way is to learn to live together. I mean, think of the effort you would have to go to pull off the perfect murder, multiple times. If it is that bad, I'd just move somewhere more tolerant, much less effort!

Once my brother was in love with a beautiful, kind girl he had known since they were both children but he was afraid to ask her to go out with him. I said to him, "why don't you just ask her? Perhaps she will say 'yes' and go out with you, later the two of you may just fall in love and you'll be married." He just shook his head. "No," he said, "I'm too ugly and not good enough for her, what if she said 'no'? I couldn't bear it if she rejected me so I would rather not risk asking". So he never asked her. However they remained friends despite his unrequited love. Years passed and she was eventually married to another man and had his children. One night he finally confessed his love for her. She said to him, "Why didn't you tell me this years ago? I loved you, I would have married you! But you never even gave me the chance, and now I can no longer bear to look at you!" She and her family left and we've never seen nor heard from her again. In consequence, because of his cowardice, my brother had lost the only woman and friend he had ever truly loved.

On that day she left I watched as my brother's heart was broken. I swore an oath that I would NEVER be afraid to love. I would rather die than deny what I am. I love another man and I'm not ashamed to say it! In fact I'm proud. And I would destroy all humanity and all the gods to preserve the love I have, and I will NEVER give it up! If the rest of you can't abide that then so be it...you are my enemy and you'll suffer as no other has before or since.

 

[cantata]

&#8220;Adah and Zillah, hear my voice;
Wives of Lamech, listen to my speech!
For I have killed a man for wounding me,
Even a young man for hurting me.
If Cain shall be avenged sevenfold,
Then Lamech seventy-sevenfold.&#8221;
~ Genesis 4:19-24

 

[EnemyPartyII]

I find the initial question offensive on a number of levels, mostly by

A. implying that homosexuals and Christians can never be the same people
B. Implying that ALL Christians hate homosexuals
C. Implying that homosexuals would ever consider, let alone want, to kill anyone based on ideology
D. Implying that homosexuals are a homogenous group that would all have the same ideology on a given issue.

Am I missing the joke here, or is it as offensive as it looks?

 

[SallyNow]

I find the initial question offensive on a number of levels, mostly by

A. implying that homosexuals and Christians can never be the same people
B. Implying that ALL Christians hate homosexuals
C. Implying that homosexuals would ever consider, let alone want, to kill anyone based on ideology
D. Implying that homosexuals are a homogenous group that would all have the same ideology on a given issue.

Am I missing the joke here, or is it as offensive as it looks?

I'm wondering the same thing.

Christians are not some homogenous subgroup; neither are homosexuals.

People vary person to person. Everyone is an individual.

Perhaps part of the post was lost. Perhaps the OP originally asked,

"if two homosexuals were in the kitchen with two Christians, and those two Christians had accidentally taken potent myth-ecstasy-heroine combo tablets instead of asprin because the bottles had gotten mixed up in the store, and the Christians came the homosexuals with a kitchen knives, and the homosexuals were standing next to the cultery drawer and were able to grab a long carving knives that would kill the Christians before the Christians had a chance to kill the homosexual, would it be okay for the homosexuals to kill the Christians?
-No, even though they would destroy me without hesitation it would be wrong.
-Absolutely, they started this war now its on.
-I don't have an opinion because I'm too indecisive to decide which pair of socks to wear.
-turn the other cheek or some other stupid rot-gut
"

 

[quatona]

]"if two homosexuals were in the kitchen with two Christians, and those two Christians had accidentally taken potent myth-ecstasy-heroine combo tablets instead of asprin because the bottles had gotten mixed up in the store, and the Christians came the homosexuals with a kitchen knives, and the homosexuals were standing next to the cultery drawer and were able to grab a long carving knives that would kill the Christians before the Christians had a chance to kill the homosexual, would it be okay for the homosexuals to kill the Christians?
-No, even though they would destroy me without hesitation it would be wrong.
-Absolutely, they started this war now its on.
-I don't have an opinion because I'm too indecisive to decide which pair of socks to wear.
-turn the other cheek or some other stupid rot-gut
"[/i]

Yes, maybe that was the sort of scenario he was thinking of. In which case I have no idea why the religious convictions or sexual preferences of any of the persons involved are of any relevance for the answer. Replace "Christians" by "vegetarians" and "homosexuals" by "heavy metal guitarists" and the answer shouldn´t be any different.

I find the OP highly confusing and alarming, and the follow up posts of the original posters disturb me even more. From what I understand he confesses and advocates an "us vs. them" thinking and mentality that I personally find despicable, and the relevance of the story of the guy who didn´t get the woman he loved because he didn´t even dare to ask her (although in itself a nice, sentimental story) for the issue of killing Christians, homosexuals, vegetarians, heavy metal guitarists or whomever escapes me completely.
I´m still hoping I have misunderstood something here.

 

[MarcusHill]

I know plenty of people who are passionate in their defense of gay rights (myself included, though as a straight guy I'm not as close to the bigots' firing line). I can't think of one such person who would seriously suggest killing even the most vile homophobe except in immediate defense of self or others - in which case, as others have pointed out, the only thing that matters is that someone is being attacked, not the reason for the attack.

 

[Trevorocity]

I find the initial question offensive on a number of levels,

You should. It should be offensive that people would even have to consider such extreme measures to protect their way of life.

mostly by

A. implying that homosexuals and Christians can never be the same people

Oh they can. I was. But don't expect to be embraced by any of the "mainstream" "Christian" churches that have vast numbers of sheep to command. That's really the heart of the matter anyway: political power.

B. Implying that ALL Christians hate homosexuals

If you're not our friend then you're our enemy. There's no more room on the fence.

C. Implying that homosexuals would ever consider, let alone want, to kill anyone based on ideology

If that ideology insists on controlling you or killing you wouldn't attempt to defend yourself or your loved one? Even knowing you may have to kill to prevent your own death?

D. Implying that homosexuals are a homogenous group that would all have the same ideology on a given issue.

Am I missing the joke here, or is it as offensive as it looks?

Ultimately their divergent points of view are irrelevent. The are all 'Teh Gheys' and should be exterminated to protect society, the family, and "God's" word.

 

[lawtonfogle]

Should homosexuals kill "Christians" who persecute them? And when is it appropriate to do so? Since "Christians" are subborning genocide is it justifiable to kill them to prevent them from gaining control of the government? Discuss.

As long as it is all talk, no.

Once the "Christians" start to do something about it, then yes.

 

[lawtonfogle]

You should. It should be offensive that people would even have to consider such extreme measures to protect their way of life.

But you are trying to make it more offensive, guess you don't think is offensive that people should have to consider this.

Oh they can. I was. But don't expect to be embraced by any of the "mainstream" "Christian" churches that have vast numbers of sheep to command. That's really the heart of the matter anyway: political power.

Eh, most churches I have seen aren't for killing homosexuals... actually all I know aren't.

If you're not our friend then you're our enemy. There's no more room on the fence.

Only Sith speak in absolutes.

If that ideology insists on controlling you or killing you wouldn't attempt to defend yourself or your loved one? Even knowing you may have to kill to prevent your own death?

Kill or be killed. Sounds very animalistic. Luckily, any of the ideology I have seen isn't for forcing control or killing. It does suggest self control, but then the only killing you could do would be suicide.

Ultimately their divergent points of view are irrelevent. The are all 'Teh Gheys' and should be exterminated to protect society, the family, and "God's" word.

Are you sure you aren't a Sith?

 

[jayem]

Should homosexuals kill "Christians" who persecute them? And when is it appropriate to do so? Since "Christians" are subborning genocide is it justifiable to kill them to prevent them from gaining control of the government? Discuss.

Substitute "Muslims" for "Christians" in your post, and you might have an arguable point. Since, in actuality, these are the fanatics who do persecute and murder homosexuals with religious backing.

 

[EvangelicalChristian]

Some individuals who claim to be Christian have committed violence against homosexuals, which is tragic. This is not the same as saying that Christians are suborning Genocide. I haven't met one Christian who advocates violence against homosexuals. It's not like we're pushing walls over on homosexuals. Perhaps you should go demonstrate in Iran.

 

[Trevorocity]

Some individuals who claim to be Christian have committed violence against homosexuals, which is tragic. This is not the same as saying that Christians are suborning Genocide. I haven't met one Christian who advocates violence against homosexuals. It's not like we're pushing walls over on homosexuals. Perhaps you should go demonstrate in Iran.

I'm sure few Christians would speak openly of their desire to cause physical harm to my people. But the sentiment is there lurking beneath the plastic smiles and hallelujah's. Most "Christian" men if they saw two men holding hands on the street would want to bash their "sinful" faces in. Most "Christian" women would shriek about having their children exposed to these "perverts" and wonder why no one stops them. It only takes a national crisis and irrational hysteria to translate those feelings of resentment and loathing into a need to find a scapegoat.

Why is it that every time gay rights are taken away there is a predictable rise in hate-crimes against them? BECAUSE the more violent members of your community feel emboldened to act, thinking they have the will of the majority on their side.

As for Iran: if it were in my power I would strip the land bare of every tree and every plant and salt the earth to punish those animals for what they've done. As I don't have an army behind me (yet), I have no choice but to rely upon the decency of Western nations to end the execution of gay citizens in Iran. So far that hasn't been very promising. When Iran executed 26 gay men (some as young as 13) did we even hear a peep of protest from American "Christians"? Nope, they just stood by silently smiling to themselves because Iran "knew what to do about their homosexual problem."