When is it Ethical to kill?

[Trevorocity]

So then, not only have you left your first love, but you've gone on to commit sodamy with another man?

That doesn't even make sense. I don't know what you're talking about and I suspect that neither do you. You're just parroting the rhetoric you've heard all your life. Since you live in Canada where you can be prosecuted for such offensive speech I've gone ahead and reported you to the relevant authorities. Hopefully they'll take you away and get you some help. I'll be praying for you.

No ouch here!

1 Tim 2
[12] But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

[FONT=Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif]quote:[/FONT] [FONT=Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif]This statement is part of a series of present commands in this chapter (“I urge,” or “I am urging,” 2:1; “I want,” or “I am wanting,” 2:8 and unspoken in 2:9; and “I do not permit,” or “I am not permitting”). Unfortunately, the translation reads as if Paul actually wrote, “I never permit a woman to teach.” Also, the grammatical order in Greek for this phrase carries less force than the English one (“To teach, a woman I am not allowing”) and completes the thought about attentive learning in verse 11. The women in the Ephesian church were allowed to learn, but not to teach. Given the tension between the influx and recognition of women as fellow heirs of Christ within the church on the one hand, and the serious problems being caused by the false teachers on the other, Paul was affirming one right (to learn) while withholding another right (to teach) because of the condition of the church at the time. They did not need more teachers; rather, they all needed to return to the foundational truths of the gospel (2:3-7).[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif]Some interpret this passage to mean that women should never teach in the assembled church; however, other passages point out that Paul allowed women to teach. Paul’s commended coworker, Priscilla, taught Apollos, the great preacher (Acts 18:24-26). In addition, Paul frequently mentioned other women who held positions of responsibility in the church. Phoebe worked in the church (Romans 16:1). Mary, Tryphena, and Tryphosa were the Lord’s workers (Romans 16:6, 12), as were Euodia and Syntyche (Philippians 4:2).[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif]More likely, Paul restrained the Ephesian women from teaching because they didn’t yet have enough knowledge or experience. The Ephesian church had a particular problem with false teachers. Both Timothy’s presence and Paul’s letters were efforts to correct the problem. Evidently the women were especially susceptible to the false teachings (2 Timothy 3:1-9) because they did not yet have enough biblical knowledge to discern the truth. Paul may have been countering the false teachers’ urging that women should claim a place of equality for prominence in the church. Because these women were new converts, they did not yet have the necessary experience, knowledge, or Christian maturity to teach those who already had extensive scriptural education. In addition, some of the women were apparently flaunting their newfound Christian freedom by wearing inappropriate clothing (see 2:9). Paul was telling Timothy not to put anyone (in this case, women) into a position of leadership who was not yet mature in the faith (see 5:22). This deeper principle applies to churches today (3:6).[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif](Life Application Bible Commentary: 1 & 2 Timothy & Titus)​

[/FONT]
​

Excuses excuses.

 

[Miracle Storm]

No ouch here!

1 Tim 2
[12] But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

[FONT=Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif]quote:[/FONT] [FONT=Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif]This statement is part of a series of present commands in this chapter (“I urge,” or “I am urging,” 2:1; “I want,” or “I am wanting,” 2:8 and unspoken in 2:9; and “I do not permit,” or “I am not permitting&#8221. Unfortunately, the translation reads as if Paul actually wrote, “I never permit a woman to teach.” Also, the grammatical order in Greek for this phrase carries less force than the English one (“To teach, a woman I am not allowing&#8221 and completes the thought about attentive learning in verse 11. The women in the Ephesian church were allowed to learn, but not to teach. Given the tension between the influx and recognition of women as fellow heirs of Christ within the church on the one hand, and the serious problems being caused by the false teachers on the other, Paul was affirming one right (to learn) while withholding another right (to teach) because of the condition of the church at the time. They did not need more teachers; rather, they all needed to return to the foundational truths of the gospel (2:3-7).[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif]Some interpret this passage to mean that women should never teach in the assembled church; however, other passages point out that Paul allowed women to teach. Paul’s commended coworker, Priscilla, taught Apollos, the great preacher (Acts 18:24-26). In addition, Paul frequently mentioned other women who held positions of responsibility in the church. Phoebe worked in the church (Romans 16:1). Mary, Tryphena, and Tryphosa were the Lord’s workers (Romans 16:6, 12), as were Euodia and Syntyche (Philippians 4:2).[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif]More likely, Paul restrained the Ephesian women from teaching because they didn’t yet have enough knowledge or experience. The Ephesian church had a particular problem with false teachers. Both Timothy’s presence and Paul’s letters were efforts to correct the problem. Evidently the women were especially susceptible to the false teachings (2 Timothy 3:1-9) because they did not yet have enough biblical knowledge to discern the truth. Paul may have been countering the false teachers’ urging that women should claim a place of equality for prominence in the church. Because these women were new converts, they did not yet have the necessary experience, knowledge, or Christian maturity to teach those who already had extensive scriptural education. In addition, some of the women were apparently flaunting their newfound Christian freedom by wearing inappropriate clothing (see 2:9). Paul was telling Timothy not to put anyone (in this case, women) into a position of leadership who was not yet mature in the faith (see 5:22). This deeper principle applies to churches today (3:6).[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif](Life Application Bible Commentary: 1 & 2 Timothy & Titus)[/FONT]
​

Yes you do, the Scripture is clear on this.

argh..
interpretations and conditions so that the "word" may remain infallible or still true for the times changing. That can happen for the feminist, or women who want to have respect, but the same cannot be done for people who love who you think they shouldn't love..?



Did you not see the reason for a women's silence? I'll bold it for you.

1 Timothy 2:9I also want women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or expensive clothes, 10but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God.
11A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. 13For Adam was formed first, then Eve.
14And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 15But women[a] will be saved[b] through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.

Did the fact that adam was formed first only apply to the women you say paul was speaking to? Did the fact that Eve was decieved only apply to the women you say Paul was speaking to or all women?

...and I wonder if braided hair was bad...what of coloring your hair, or perms, extensions etc..
braided hair, jewelry or expensive clothes are not being modest? Most the christians I have seen are certainly not modest at all by biblical standards.

 

[CGL]

holy s***! three people here think its justified for gays to kill christians because they call them fruits and won't let them get married?:o

 

[Zeena]

That doesn't even make sense. I don't know what you're talking about and I suspect that neither do you. You're just parroting the rhetoric you've heard all your life.

It's called rebuke by a fellow believer.

Since you live in Canada where you can be prosecuted for such offensive speech I've gone ahead and reported you to the relevant authorities.

1 Corinthians 6:7
Nay, already it is altogether a defect in you, that ye have lawsuits one with another. Why not rather take wrong? why not rather be defrauded?

Hopefully they'll take you away and get you some help. I'll be praying for you.

James 2:16
and one of you say unto them, Go in peace, be ye warmed and filled; and yet ye give them not the things needful to the body; what doth it profit?

argh..
interpretations and conditions so that the "word" may remain infallible or still true for the times changing. That can happen for the feminist, or women who want to have respect, but the same cannot be done for people who love who you think they shouldn't love..?



Did you not see the reason for a women's silence? I'll bold it for you.

1 Timothy 2:9I also want women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or expensive clothes, 10but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God.
11A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. 13For Adam was formed first, then Eve.
14And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 15But women[a] will be saved[b] through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.

Did the fact that adam was formed first only apply to the women you say paul was speaking to? Did the fact that Eve was decieved only apply to the women you say Paul was speaking to or all women?

...and I wonder if braided hair was bad...what of coloring your hair, or perms, extensions etc..
braided hair, jewelry or expensive clothes are not being modest? Most the christians I have seen are certainly not modest at all by biblical standards.

1 Corinthians 11:11-12
In the Lord, however, woman is not independent of man, nor is man independent of woman. For as woman came from man, so also man is born of woman. But everything comes from God.

BTW, I'm barren, does this now mean Jesus can't save me?

Luke 23:29
For behold, the days are coming, in which they shall say, Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the breasts that never gave suck.

holy s***! three people here think its justified for gays to kill christians because they call them fruits and won't let them get married?:o

That's what the decietfulness of sin does, it hardens the heart!

Hebrews 11:25
choosing rather to share ill treatment with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;

 

[EvangelicalChristian]

When I was in Minneapolis, I used to listen to Conservative Christian Radio, since my mom listened to it all the time, and believed everything they said.
When Shephard was murdered, many states were trying to include Sexual Orientation to the Hate Crimes bill. The Christian DJ said, "That's saying that it is worse to kill a homosexual!" Sexual orientation includes ALL orientations, including heterosexuals, but there aren't a lot of gay people going around killing straight people. What the DJ refused to admit is that Religion is covered under Hate Crimes law. She simply didn't want it to be extended to Sexual Orientation, protecting her gay neighbor.

She might not have blatantly advocated violence, but she was not admitting that it was a problem in the country, nor offering any compassion, mercy, or support of protection for a group that is clearly targetted for violence. She argued that "all crimes are Hate Crimes", while, again, ignoring that Hate Crime legislation exists, just (at the time) did not include sexual orientation. She did not admit that there is 1st degree Murder, 2nd degree Murder, 3rd Degree Murder, Manslaughter, and Homicide, all which deal with the criminal intent - the "thought police" behind the crime.

In the eyes of God, if one takes an instance like Shephard, and then argues that Sexual Orientation should not be included, ignores the implications of such a statement, falsely says that it would may kiling gay people are more serious crime (when in previous years, the "gay panic defense" made it a less serious crime than killing a heterosexual), seeming to blame the victim, one has to wonder if God doesn't see the person as guilty as the murderer themselves, since their heart is so hardened even in the midst of such a tragedy.

It would be ridiculous to argue that hate crimes do not occur. However I disagree with the current thought in the U.S. that killing someone out of hate is any more egregious than killing someone for money, or property, or sex.

Murder is murder and it is a crime.
Criminals should be prosecuted, period.

 

[stan1980]

It would be ridiculous to argue that hate crimes do not occur. However I disagree with the current thought in the U.S. that killing someone out of hate is any more egregious than killing someone for money, or property, or sex.

Murder is murder and it is a crime.
Criminals should be prosecuted, period.

I think the reason why hate crimes are quite rightly more serious, is that the perpetrator is more likely to repeat said crimes, hence the harsher punishment.

 

[EvangelicalChristian]

We are all entitled to our opinion but I see no reason to value one persons life any higher than any other. Inconsistent sentencing does exactly that.

 

[cantata]

We are all entitled to our opinion but I see no reason to value one persons life any higher than any other. Inconsistent sentencing does exactly that.

That's the problem with viewing sentences as retributive rather than reformative and preventative. A common error.

 

[stan1980]

We are all entitled to our opinion but I see no reason to value one persons life any higher than any other. Inconsistent sentencing does exactly that.

Different crimes normally have different mitigating circumstances. Where there is more chance of a repeat offence, there will probably be a heavier sentence.

 

[EvangelicalChristian]

Again I disagree.

 

[MarcusHill]

Different crimes normally have different mitigating circumstances. Where there is more chance of a repeat offence, there will probably be a heavier sentence.

Indeed. A man who finds his wife in bed with his only brother and kills them both in a fit of rage is rather less likely to repeat the offense than a man who kills a gay couple because he hates homos. It's rather easy for the former to demonstrate that, due to the lack of further wives and brothers, he's not liable to be in the same position again. The latter, on the other hand, would need to show that he's no longer a violent bigot.

 

[Beanieboy]

It would be ridiculous to argue that hate crimes do not occur. However I disagree with the current thought in the U.S. that killing someone out of hate is any more egregious than killing someone for money, or property, or sex.

Murder is murder and it is a crime.
Criminals should be prosecuted, period.

If you plan out and carry out a murder, it's 1st Degree Murder - Premeditatoin.

If you get angry and suddenly kill in rage, it's 2nd Degree - Murder of Passion.

If you kill because of negligence, although unintentional - it is 3rd Degree.

If you kill someone with your car, it is homicide.

All murder, all punished differently based on intent: Your THOUGHT process behind the killing.

Do you protest these things to? Do you protest outside of the courthouse that someone who walks in and guns down children in cold blood should be punished the same as two men who end a drunken fight with gun shot and one of them dead?

Are you trying to take Hate Crimes off the books, which cover race, religion, and origin that already exist? Sexual orientation was simply going to be added to the list, not Hate Crimes created. They already exist.

No one had a problem with them until gay people were included on that list. Hate Crimes are usually far more violent than most crimes. Shepard, for example, was beaten, pistol whipped, urinated on, had cigarettes put out on his body, then left in the cold to die alone. Those who saw him thought he was a scarecrow at first, then realized he was human.

It's not just shooting someone. It's more complicated than that.

People flying planes into buildings should just be called "murderers", but they are called terrorists. Why? Because the people doing the action wanted not to just cause terror in the people on the plane or the building or New York. People felt it all over the US, even though we didn't know the people in the towers or the planes.

That's what instances like Shepard do - they cause terror in the gay community. We know that some moron could pick any one of us, and beat us, or even kill us, simply because we are gay. Do you fear that a bunch of drunk gay guys are going to beat you or kill you because you are straight? Probably not, because there aren't straight bashers.

The year that that happened, another guy was beaten so badly outside a convenience store that his blood was on the awning. Another was thrown into a tire fire. And some white guys wanting to impress the Arian Nation dragged a black acquaintence, Byrd, 3 miles, tied to the back of their car. Police had to search for the body parts.

Does that sound like a simple murder to you?

 

[Miracle Storm]

1 Corinthians 11:11-12
In the Lord, however, woman is not independent of man, nor is man independent of woman. For as woman came from man, so also man is born of woman. But everything comes from God.

BTW, I'm barren, does this now mean Jesus can't save me?

What are you doing?
Did I even imply that? You are the believer, not me.

Luke 23:29
For behold, the days are coming, in which they shall say, Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the breasts that never gave suck.

Your words Zeena, not mine..

So then, you are able to fulfill the command of God only by living a homosexual lifesyle?

Genesis 1:22
And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let birds multiply on the earth.

You are the one throwing up multiplying and being fruitful in people's faces and it seems that would be the last thing you would do considering you state you cannot "multiply"

and nothing in your post answered anything within mine...unless you are saying 1 corinthian 11 answers this, if so, how? You believe a woman is equal to a man? There is no difference in the Lord, for in the lord there is neither male nor female, slave nor free, gentile nor jew....If this is your belief and we are the same than how could there be homosexuals in the Lord...there is neither male nor female in him?? (galatians 3)
If this is not your belief than you must concede the reasons given in 1 Timothy are given to all women and not just those Paul is speaking to, because the reasons given would not only apply only to the women you say Paul is speaking.?

Did you not see the reason for a women's silence? I'll bold it for you.

1 Timothy 2:9I also want women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or expensive clothes, 10but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God.
11A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. 13For Adam was formed first, then Eve.
14And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 15But women[a] will be saved[b] through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.

Did the fact that adam was formed first only apply to the women you say paul was speaking to? Did the fact that Eve was decieved only apply to the women you say Paul was speaking to or all women?

...and I wonder if braided hair was bad...what of coloring your hair, or perms, extensions etc..
braided hair, jewelry or expensive clothes are not being modest? Most the christians I have seen are certainly not modest at all by biblical standards.

 

[Zeena]

My post stands as is, I owe you nothing.

 

[Miracle Storm]

My post stands as is, I owe you nothing.

This response is better than the never admitted to "I just don't have an answer" anyday!

 

[cantata]

Zeena has had difficulty in the past coping with challenges to the consistency of her own beliefs.

Zeena, what you are being asked is, how is it that you both object to same-sex couplings on the basis that they can't produce children, and yet consider yourself especially blessed because you are "barren"?

(By the way, would it be acceptable for two infertile men or two infertile women to get it together? It's not like they're wasting any breeding opportunities.)

 

[Trevorocity]

My post stands as is, I owe you nothing.

'Therefore, you prostitute, hear the word of the LORD!

Ezekiel 16:35