Can "salvation", be "forfeit"?

[GenemZ]

it's only ONE chapter!? You made it sound like it was so easy and simple to understand!

Who said anything about easy and simple?

That chapter covers many different things.

Now? Did you have something specific in mind?

Or, did you wish to simply derail this thread?






.

 

[sawdust]

Salvation cannot be lost. It can be forfeited, through disobedience/unbelief...

Then one of us will have to consider they have forfeited their salvation for one of us is rejecting Christ. He is the Word. To reject the truth of His word is to reject Him.

Where there is no Word there can be no faith.

Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ. Rom.10:17

The word must come first before man can apply his volition to believe or disbelieve. If it were not for the grace of God first, there would be no faith at all.

peace

 

[GenemZ]

Then one of us will have to consider they have forfeited their salvation for one of us is rejecting Christ. He is the Word. To reject the truth of His word is to reject Him.

Where there is no Word there can be no faith.

Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ. Rom.10:17

The word must come first before man can apply his volition to believe or disbelieve. If it were not for the grace of God first, there would be no faith at all.

peace

The Word is what we are to live by after we are saved. Jesus said that the man does not live by bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.

When we believe in Christ we are placed into a new kingdom by the Spirit of God. You are given a new spiritual life that both the unbeliever and the legalistic believer can not understand.

Believe in Christ? Saved from the Lake of Fire. Placed into the Royal Family of God.

Now? The new life requires growing up into understanding it. Again, both the unbeliever and legalistic believer can not sense what this drive to grow is.

If we fail to grow in grace and truth? We will not be saved from the evils this world functions in as the norm. The legalist is protected by the world as long as he does not turn his legalism towards the ways of the world. Satan like the legalists because legalism is toxic to the spiritual life.

To detox from legalism? One must be saved by growing in truth and understanding. The Holy Spirit will honor sound doctrine and give what is believed, power. That is how grace is given to make the (sound) doctrinal believer overcome the weakening effects of legalism.

Now? To keep oneself from being poisoned by the world? Again... knowledge and understanding of the Word is what is needed to have peace in not being of the world, yet in the world.

Can our salvation be forfeited? Only in regards to being saved from the world, and the vile effects of legalism. A believer can be ineffective and impotent spiritually if he fails to grow in faith.

Romans 1:17 (New King James Version)​

"For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “The just shall live by faith.”

​

​

Now how does a believer grow from faith to faith? To live by faith?

We eat food today, so we can live to eat more food tomorrow. Faith is our "daily bread."

2 Peter 3:18 (New International Version)​

"But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever! Amen."​

​

If we grow in grace and knowledge of the Lord?

Who was the Word that became flesh?

We grow in the Word! THEN! We become saved from the evils from the outside (unbelievers) and the inside (legalism).

1 Timothy 4:16 (New International Version)​

"Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers."



​

​

Sound doctrine, believed in the power of the Spirit, saves our soul (through knowledge and understanding) from the evils in the world that are antagonists to God's life. A life which is only found in Christ. The Word of God.



Grace and peace, GeneZ



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[Ben johnson]

Then one of us will have to consider they have forfeited their salvation for one of us is rejecting Christ. He is the Word. To reject the truth of His word is to reject Him.

That's correct --- on that we have no disagreement.

Where there is no Word there can be no faith.

If all is "sovereignly decreed" by God, then how could Paul say "How can they believe ...without a preacher"?

Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ. Rom.10:17

Exactly. Faith comes from hearing. It also comes from seeing --- remember Thomas? "You believe BECAUSE you see"?

In Jn6:40 Jesus said, "Those who SEE Jesus and believe, may be saved".

So when Jesus tells Thomas that "unseen faith is better than seen faith" (Jn20:29), how can that possibly accommodate "sovereign-decreed-faith"?

The word must come first before man can apply his volition to believe or disbelieve. If it were not for the grace of God first, there would be no faith at all.

Is there anything in Scripture that even hints at the concept of "God's grace does not sincerely come to any one person"?

 

[GenemZ]

In Jn6:40 Jesus said, "Those who SEE Jesus and believe, may be saved".

You TOTALLY misunderstand faith! Faith causes the believer to see the unseen! Faith concerns what is unseen, physically!

Hebrews 11:1 (New International Version)
"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see."
​

You are working with the WRONG type of eyes!

Ephesians 1:18 (New International Version)
"I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints."
​

Here's your verse...

John 6:40 (New American Standard Bible)
"For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."
​

I beheld the Son and was saved! But? I did not see him physically manifested! Those who know Him behold him in their hearts! That happens by grace.

So when Jesus tells Thomas that "unseen faith is better than seen faith" (Jn20:29), how can that possibly accommodate "sovereign-decreed-faith"?

What you speak of could only have taken place during the time Jesus walked the earth. The Church age did not begin until AFTER the ascension to Heaven by Christ.

We are Church age. You are referring to an age when they were still yet as Jews. Thomas was yet a Jew when the Lord appeared to him. The Holy Spirit was not yet given to indwell the believer to open the eyes of his heart as we have today. That did not begin until Pentecost.

And example of seeing according to faith? Is how you always fail to see what we are saying. That's the kind of sight the Lord is after.

Very few in Israel were blind men. Very few were deaf. Yet? This is how the Lord spoke of the majority of the people who lived in unbelief.

Matthew 13:15 (New International Version)
"For this people's heart has become calloused;
they hardly hear with their ears,
and they have closed their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts
and turn, and I would heal them."
​

Jesus could have just had spoken deeps words of spiritual truth to the people. They could see him. They could hear him.

But? They could not see who he was. They could not hear what his words implied. Only those who the Father shows the truth could both see and hear the truth.

Those who could see have my sympathy. They probably were badgered all day by having those who could not see, insisting that they keep explaining it to them, and never getting it.


In Christ, GeneZ



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[sawdust]

That's correct --- on that we have no disagreement.
If all is "sovereignly decreed" by God, then how could Paul say "How can they believe ...without a preacher"?
Exactly. Faith comes from hearing. It also comes from seeing --- remember Thomas? "You believe BECAUSE you see"?

In Jn6:40 Jesus said, "Those who SEE Jesus and believe, may be saved".

So when Jesus tells Thomas that "unseen faith is better than seen faith" (Jn20:29), how can that possibly accommodate "sovereign-decreed-faith"?
Is there anything in Scripture that even hints at the concept of "God's grace does not sincerely come to any one person"?

You TOTALLY misunderstand faith!

What genez said.

peace

 

[Ben johnson]

You TOTALLY misunderstand faith!

What genez said.

Then 'splain it to me.

Is faith something God DOES (to us)? Or does God receive men who come to Him BY faith?

 

[GenemZ]

Then 'splain it to me.

Is faith something God DOES (to us)? Or does God receive men who come to Him BY faith?

Men come to him by the means of faith. Faith is what God has designated as the mark of those who are his. What God does to us is not faith. What he does makes us able to have faith. What God does is to enable us by his power so the depravity of the sin nature found in the flesh will not blind our soul to the Spirit's presence.

Picture this. Satan is before the Lord like we saw in the book of Job. He points out GeneZ to the Lord.

Satan then asks...

This GeneZ? What justifies you calling him your own?

He may live according to moral law, but so do many of my followers.

Matter of fact, many of my followers are better people in how they are towards others. Kinder. Nicer. Sweeter.
​

And? What about sin? He is a sinner! I have a record of all his sins reported to me by my demons. I can list all his sins for the last 50 years! I have religious people under me who refrain from sin more than he does. ​

So? What justifies you calling him your own!? he's no better than my most upright morally strict followers! They are even better than him morally! Yet? You reject them!​

What JUSTIFIES you calling him your own!!!? What can he do that my people can not?​

Then...

The Lord finally speaks....
​

Do your people have faith?
​

Faith in the truth?



​

Romans 5:1 (New American Standard Bible)​

​

"Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ."​

​

That is the only thing that justifies my own!

Do your's have faith???

Your's can not be justified by how they obey the moral law alone. FAITH they can not produce by being moral...


You give them faith, then come back and ask me again.



.


​

 

[beloved57]

Is faith something God DOES (to us)?

Its something God gives the elect..Its how we know that we are saved..

Its Good to know when one is saved, thats what faith does..It comes from the righteousness of God and the Saviour Lord Jesus christ..

2 pet 1:

1Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

 

[GenemZ]

Its something God gives the elect..Its how we know that we are saved..

Its Good to know when one is saved, thats what faith does..It comes from the righteousness of God and the Saviour Lord Jesus christ..

2 pet 1:

1Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

God gives us grace... Which is the enabling Divine power by means of the Holy Spirit which prevents our depravity of our flesh from dominating over our souls, so the soul can be made free to believe His Word of salvation. If grace were never given? No one could believe. For the flesh would keep enslaving the soul against the Word of God.

God gives grace. Yet, God offers faith when he gives grace. The faith we choose to believe when freed by grace? Becomes our own.

Titus 2:11(New International Version)
"For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men."
​

Many are given grace that leads to salvation. Many are also offered faith. But... many are called, but few are chosen.

Many who reject God were given the grace needed to be enabled to believe.

"For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men."
​

But? Only few will believe.

God's grace kept their sin nature from influencing their soul's choice when presented the Gospel And, as a result of this grace being given? Their soul was made free to believe. At that point? When they reject God? They become just like Satan when he rejected God. For Satan rejected God while he was yet unfallen. Grace is given to all men so they can make their choices concerning God.


Because God's grace powerfully sets aside momentarily the oppression of the sin nature over a man's soul when God's truth is offered to be decided upon? And, the faith is rejected?

The sin nature was not the cause of its rejection. For grace kept the sin nature momentarily at bay. The rejection of faith therefore, is not sin. Its evil. Evil is not the same thing as sin. Satan had evil when he fell. But, just before he fell he was without a fallen nature. We are born sinners. So, God gives grace to make us able to choose from a point that is fair and just.


If rejecting salvation were simply sin? All would be saved. For? Jesus died for all the sins of the world.

What we often times are not told.. Jesus could not die for evil. He could only die for sin. Those who reject faith are evil, not simply sinners.

Evil sends people to Hell. Not their sins. Jesus paid for the sins of those sent to hell. Sin is not why they go there.

1 John 2:2 (New International Version)
"He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world."


​

As you can see? Jesus paid for the sins of the world.

He was judged for all sin. Not just for those who believe.

Therefore? No one will be judged on the basis of their sins. For, sin was already judged on the cross.

They will be judged on the basis of their evil!

Our sins comes from the fallen sin nature residing in the flesh. The fallen nature we inherit from Adam. The soul in itself is not fallen, but is enslaved by the flesh. Yet, having no power over the flesh? All souls sin. Grace breaks that cycle when we walk in grace.

When God is reaching out, God's grace isolates the soul (for moments in time) so that soul, being isolated from the oppression of the sin nature... is now 'enabled'- made free - to make a choice for, or against, faith.

When under the influence of grace? If that soul rejects faith? That is now a soul making a free choice to reject truth. That choice is residing outside of the sin nature's oppression over the soul. Its therefore not caused by sin. It was a choice freely made. That is called evil.

See the difference?


Hope that helps clarify.



Grace and peace, GeneZ



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[sawdust]

Then 'splain it to me.

Is faith something God DOES (to us)? Or does God receive men who come to Him BY faith?

It's like eating.

You are sitting at a table spread with food. The food is the Word. You choose to swallow the food but, once that food is in your stomach, it is no longer your will that is working to metabolise that food turning it into the energy your body requires to sustain it.

In the same way, faith is the result of God's truth (His word is truth) working away (metabolizing truth) in your soul. Grace is the power that makes the metaboliazation process possible.

You can believe what you will but if it is not truth, you do not have faith. The measure of one's faith is in direct proportion to the amount of truth in their soul.

So, in a sense, it is something God does to us but not in the way you mean it. He doesn't just wave a magic wand over us and "hey presto" we have faith. Nor does He hand out faith like candy. We must make a choice to swallow (believe) or refuse to eat (disbelieve).

The reason He receives men who come to Him in faith is because He is effectively receiving back His own word.

peace

 

[Ben johnson]

Its something God gives the elect..Its how we know that we are saved..

Its Good to know when one is saved, thats what faith does..It comes from the righteousness of God and the Saviour Lord Jesus christ..

2 pet 1:

1Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

So --- when Peter said, "Receive as the outcome of YOUR FAITH the salvation of your souls" --- it's REALLY saying "receive as the outcome of God's-faith-He-INSTILLED-in-you"?

1Pet1:9

 

[Ben johnson]

God gives us grace... Which is the enabling Divine power by means of the Holy Spirit which prevents our depravity of our flesh from dominating over our souls, so the soul can be made free to believe His Word of salvation. If grace were never given? No one could believe. For the flesh would keep enslaving the soul against the Word of God.

God gives grace. Yet, God offers faith when he gives grace. The faith we choose to believe when freed by grace? Becomes our own.

Titus 2:11(New International Version)
"For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men."

Many are given grace that leads to salvation. Many are also offered faith. But... many are called, but few are chosen.

Wow --- Gene and I agree on something.

In the parable, all were called, but the king decided nothing of who would come (and/or put on clean clothes); they decided all by themselves.

Many who reject God were given the grace needed to be enabled to believe.

Not just "many", but "all". All are commanded to repent (Acts17:30), all are desired to be saved (1Tim2:1-4, Ezk18:32), justification came to the exact same number to whom came condemnation (Rom5:17-18).

"For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men."

But? Only few will believe.

God's grace kept their sin nature from influencing their soul's choice when presented the Gospel And, as a result of this grace being given? Their soul was made free to believe. At that point? When they reject God? They become just like satan when he rejected God. For satan rejected God while he was yet unfallen. Grace is given to all men so they can make their choices concerning God.

Nicely stated. But --- if you accept that "unfallen satan" freely chose to reject God, why is it a stretch to consider that a man, after having BEEN saved, can still reject God?

"I worry, that as the serpent deceived Eve, YOUR minds should be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ." 2Cor11:3

Because God's grace powerfully sets aside momentarily the oppression of the sin nature over a man's soul when God's truth is offered to be decided upon? And, the faith is rejected?

This is the only way God could be "just"; each person has a real invitation to eternity.

...and each who perishes, chooses willfully...

The sin nature was not the cause of its rejection. For grace kept the sin nature momentarily at bay. The rejection of faith therefore, is not sin. Its evil. Evil is not the same thing as sin. Satan had evil when he fell. But, just before he fell he was without a fallen nature. We are born sinners. So, God gives grace to make us able to choose from a point that is fair and just.

If rejecting salvation were simply sin? All would be saved. For? Jesus died for all the sins of the world.

What we often times are not told.. Jesus could not die for evil. He could only die for sin. Those who reject faith are evil, not simply sinners.

Evil sends people to Hell. Not their sins. Jesus paid for the sins of those sent to hell. Sin is not why they go there.

True; but "sins", expose a heart that is NOT joined to Christ. That's why Scripture says "they will receive the consequence of their deeds." Rev20:13, Rom2:6-8.

1 John 2:2 (New International Version)
"He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world."

As you can see? Jesus paid for the sins of the world.

He was judged for all sin. Not just for those who believe.

That is true; but "unless they repent, they will die in their sins." Jesus' blood washes away sins; but he who REJECTS Jesus' blood, remains unwashed.

Therefore? No one will be judged on the basis of their sins. For, sin was already judged on the cross.

They will be judged on the basis of their evil!

And a "good tree produces good fruit" (deeds), and an evil tree produces evil deeds....

Our sins comes from the fallen sin nature residing in the flesh. The fallen nature we inherit from Adam. The soul in itself is not fallen, but is enslaved by the flesh. Yet, having no power over the flesh? All souls sin. Grace breaks that cycle when we walk in grace.

Precisely! We NEVER have power to overcome sins; "what man could not do, weak as the flesh is, God DID -- sending His Son in the likeness of sinful men..." Rom8

We HAVE power to walk in the Spirit, and when we walk in the Spirit, HE empowers us to overcome sin!

It's HIS power by which we live righteously, not ours. NEVER ours...

When God is reaching out, God's grace isolates the soul (for moments in time) so that soul, being isolated from the oppression of the sin nature... is now 'enabled'- made free - to make a choice for, or against, faith.

When under the influence of grace? If that soul rejects faith? That is now a soul making a free choice to reject truth. That choice is residing outside of the sin nature's oppression over the soul. Its therefore not caused by sin. It was a choice freely made. That is called evil.

See the difference?

The same volition by which men COME to Christ, still persists until we die; we are free to choose Him, and we can be deceived to reject Him.

Deception always has as its goal "to lure us away from Christ".

I'm impressed, Gene; I didn't think we had this much agreement.

 

[Ben johnson]

It's like eating.

You are sitting at a table spread with food. The food is the Word. You choose to swallow the food but, once that food is in your stomach, it is no longer your will that is working to metabolise that food turning it into the energy your body requires to sustain it.

Good analogy. Now --- doesn't "swallowing", reflect "receiving"? It's voluntary.

And if one's inclined, can't the food be vomited back up?

In the same way, faith is the result of God's truth (His word is truth) working away (metabolizing truth) in your soul. Grace is the power that makes the metaboliazation process possible.

I would says "faith is TAKING the food and HIDING it inside".

You are good...

You can believe what you will but if it is not truth, you do not have faith. The measure of one's faith is in direct proportion to the amount of truth in their soul.

And vice-versa.

So, in a sense, it is something God does to us but not in the way you mean it. He doesn't just wave a magic wand over us and "hey presto" we have faith. Nor does He hand out faith like candy. We must make a choice to swallow (believe) or refuse to eat (disbelieve).

And in that, you support what I've just said. Your analogy is excellent.

The reason He receives men who come to Him in faith is because He is effectively receiving back His own word.

No, they can "eat", or "not-eat"; and they can later vomit back up what they've eaten.

Sawdust, I look forward to your replies; this post, Gene's post, and my post #633 (preceding).

 

[sawdust]

Good analogy. Now --- doesn't "swallowing", reflect "receiving"? It's voluntary.

And if one's inclined, can't the food be vomited back up?
I would says "faith is TAKING the food and HIDING it inside".

You are good...
And vice-versa.
And in that, you support what I've just said. Your analogy is excellent.
No, they can "eat", or "not-eat"; and they can later vomit back up what they've eaten.

Sawdust, I look forward to your replies; this post, Gene's post, and my post #633 (preceding).

You do realise that food that can be vomited back up is not metabolized, don't you?

Faith is food (the word) metabolized (at one with your soul). It is already in your system doing it's work. It cannot be vomited out of your system.

peace

 

[GenemZ]

Ben,

You get it almost right. Like you have been called to the truth..

But, then you reject it.

John 6:38-40 (New International Version)
"For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."
​

One can not contradict that, and still have truth. Faith is truth metabolized. You appear to simply chew and spit out... or you have a spiritual enzyme deficiency which can not break down the elements to give you life.










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[GenemZ]

Wow --- Gene and I agree on something.

No we do not. For the conclusions we differ on, is the completed thought.

Not just "many", but "all". All are commanded to repent (Acts17:30), all are desired to be saved (1Tim2:1-4, Ezk18:32), justification came to the exact same number to whom came condemnation (Rom5:17-18).

Now, all have been drawn by the father. Not all called.

Not all reach the point to where they can be called. Romans 1:18-20 reveals that certain ones were being drawn by God's grace, but refused to acknowledge God after he had made himself known.

These ones are without excuse. And, if they ever hear the calling? Its merely coincidental. For they can no longer receive the grace which is required to be called. They can not reject what they can not consider.

Nicely stated. But --- if you accept that "unfallen satan" freely chose to reject God, why is it a stretch to consider that a man, after having BEEN saved, can still reject God?

Ben? You reject God right now.

You even find Scripture that can be made to appear to contradict God, and claim the contradictions.

Yet, God never is a contradiction. You refused to wait upon the Lord for an answer, and desired to run with the seeming contradictions you can find. You even take pleasure in this. For it feeds something in your flesh that you desire to fulfill.

Now? Here it is again! You reject God.

John 6:38-40 (New International Version)
"For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."
​

Go fight it. And, you do!

You refuse to listen to any reasoning to show you how the passages you choose to contradict the words of the Lord mean other things. That means? You? Reject God on that matter.



Now? Are you not saved because you reject God? No. But, unless you repent? You are losing rewards that would await you in Heaven.

You're choice. Some reject salvation. Others reject God's purpose after they are saved.

You should be glad to be shown that you can not lose your salvation.

1 Corinthians 3:11-15 (New International Version)
"For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work.

If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward.

If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames."




​

So far, you have been rejecting God, by rejecting what he says, after you have been saved. .

What you choose to believe now will be shown to be wood, hay, and stubble. But? After what you accept will be burned up? A destruction by fire? Your soul will still be saved!

"If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames."​

So be it.
​

.
​

 

[Ben johnson]

Gene --- in your view, what is the difference between "called" and "drawn"?

 

[beloved57]

So --- when Peter said, "Receive as the outcome of YOUR FAITH the salvation of your souls" --- it's REALLY saying "receive as the outcome of God's-faith-He-INSTILLED-in-you"?

1Pet1:9

See, someone show you scriptures like you always asking for, though you dont mean it, then you ignore it..lol..

 

[Ben johnson]

See, someone show you scriptures like you always asking for, though you dont mean it, then you ignore it..lol..

Where was this answered???