Can "salvation", be "forfeit"?

[GenemZ]

Death to "Self" makes spiritual life possible. That is what Jesus came to explain and make possible. It is called the "Way of the Cross" made possible by the "Work of the Cross".

Above all else.. Death to self requires knowing Bible truth to replace our own way of thinking in every area of our life.

Otherwise, in "self denial" one becomes as an aesthetic mystic type, like a Tibetan monk in the mechanics of self denial, done instead in the name of Jesus.


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[Rightglory]

Ormly,

Death to "Self" makes spiritual life possible. That is what Jesus came to explain and make possible. It is called the "Way of the Cross" made possible by the "Work of the Cross".

Which is moot, meaningless unless Christ first gives life to man, a physical eternal existance. It is all about the Work of the Cross.

 

[GenemZ]

Our differences, are not great; you see "all made alive", I see "made alive through faith"; yet we agree that whoever stands before God in the end, but is ABSENT Jesus-in-their-hearts (unwritten in the Book of Life), perish. There is a difference between the "First Resurrection", and the "Second"; the second is judgment to the condemned, the first (a thousand years earlier) is to the righteous to reign with Christ.
That's right; and throughout Scripture it is a constant walk, requiring "diligence" and "perseverance". Look at Eph4; is it possible TO walk in darkness, as the heathen do, excluded from the life in God? Yes.

Rom6 admonishes us TO "put to death the flesh, but consider ourselves alive in Christ Jesus". Rom8 admonishes us "not to walk in the flesh --- if we do we must die; but if by the Spirit we are putting to death the flesh, we will live."
And per John6:27, believing is God's work that WE WORK.

Jude 24 says "God is able to keep us, and to present us blameless before God"; but 20-21 says "build YOURSELVES in holy faith, keep YOURSELVES in God's love!"

We are Christ's house, IF we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end. Heb3:6

You always seem to concentrate on such matters as you main goal in your walk. As usual, I find them depressing to see as a way of life. On the other hand? Have you ever discovered the meaning of...

John 10:10 (Amplified Bible)
​

"The thief comes only in order to steal and kill and destroy. I came that they may have and enjoy life, and have it in abundance (to the full, till it overflows)."
​

I just do not see that as being a part of your way of life. You are way too busy trying to make sure you save yourself, to even begin to have excitements and joys in this life. You strike me as having a morbid obsession with losing one's salvation instead. Not what Jesus died for us to have.

Romans 8:6 (Amplified Bible)
​

"Now the mind of the flesh [which is sense and reason without the Holy Spirit] is death [death that comprises all the miseries arising from sin, both here and hereafter]. But the mind of the Spirit is life and [soul] peace both now and forever."
​

Philippians 4:4 (New International Version)
"Rejoice in the Lord always. I will say it again: Rejoice!"
​

With your belief system? From what you tell us? Those are only seen a words without substance.

"But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe.

All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.

For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day."

​

Its all a lie?....




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[GenemZ]

still working to keep salvation.... romans 11:6

Now? What does "romans" and a number after it mean?


COME ON! SAY IT!

"But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace."
​

Some won't get it. But say it!

For those who have ears to hear, they will listen! Those who walk in grace will understand.




Grace and peace, GeneZ



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[Ormly]

Ormly,

Which is moot, meaningless unless Christ first gives life to man, a physical eternal existance. It is all about the Work of the Cross.

So what is it I wrote you disagree with?

 

[Rightglory]

Ormly,

Death to "Self" makes spiritual life possible.

Death to self IS spiritual life.

 

[Ormly]

Ormly,
Death to self IS spiritual life.

Death to self is process. It is the "way of the Cross" Pick it up. Can you now see that is what Christ is after when saying that?

 

[GenemZ]

Ormly,
Death to self IS spiritual life.

No... that can simply be an altered state of mind. A schizophrenic state of mind, which one stabilizes with religious rigidity. Blindness. That is what Jesus said of the RELIGIOUS leaders. They thought they were spiritual. More than everyone else!


True spirituality will cause a deep hunger for the Word of God! True spirituality will find religion to be bitter and distasteful.

1 Corinthians 2:13 (New International Version)
​

"This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words."


​

Religion, on the other hand; does not require spiritual perception. It requires having a prescribed system of black and white mandates that any willing person can follow in obedience, as to form for that person a sense of achievement as one compiles up a list of works that he is told pleases God.

Religion does not require understanding and insight. It only requires a submission to a predetermined plan that requires no thought and problem solving, but simply a sense of works of achievement by collecting religious merit badges in the name of God.



There is a difference.

Religion is not Christianity. But, some religions lay claim to being Christianity. The world accepts it as such. Spirit filled Christians see through it.





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[Ben johnson]

You always seem to concentrate on such matters as your main goal in your walk. As usual, I find them depressing to see as a way of life. On the other hand? Have you ever discovered the meaning of...

It's not "concentrating on matters" --- it's "concentrating on HIM.

Succinctly, "Abide in Him...."

John 10:10 (Amplified Bible)

"The thief comes only in order to steal and kill and destroy. I came that they may have and enjoy life, and have it in abundance (to the full, till it overflows)."

I just do not see that as being a part of your way of life. You are way too busy trying to make sure you save yourself, to even begin to have excitements and joys in this life. You strike me as having a morbid obsession with losing one's salvation instead. Not what Jesus died for us to have.

Not at all; my focus is on the reason for it all.

I ask hundreds of people to "sum it all up in one word"; Jesus ministry, His death and resurrection; eternal life, all. Everything Matthew Mark Luke and John wrote; everything James Jude and Peter wrote. Every syllable penned by Paul --- someone asks "What does it mean to be saved? What does 'born again' mean? Why did the veil, TEAR?" You can tell him in one word, and he'll UNDERSTAND it.

Most have no idea. "Faith/belief/obedience" they'll say; perhaps "love" --- those are important, but not the answer. So I ask a second question --- "WHY do you want to go to Heaven?" And they'll say "Eternal life, be with my friends, crowns and rewards, mansions..."

I say, "And???"

Finally, they'll say, "To be with God?"

Bingo. What's the greatest commandment? "You shall LOVE the Lord your God with all your heart, all your mind, all your strength and all your soul."

If we don't love God fully, NOW, and desire to be WITH Him, then Heaven holds nothing for us.

It's all about --- FELLOWSHIP. Salvation is an indwelt fellowship of love. 1Jn1:1-3, Jn17:3.

Romans 8:6 (Amplified Bible)

"Now the mind of the flesh [which is sense and reason without the Holy Spirit] is death [death that comprises all the miseries arising from sin, both here and hereafter]. But the mind of the Spirit is life and [soul] peace both now and forever."

WHY is one person's mind "set on the flesh", and another's "set on the Spirit"? Read Col3:1ff; it's fully a choice. Constantly.

Philippians 4:4 (New International Version)
"Rejoice in the Lord always. I will say it again: Rejoice!"

Amen, again.

With your belief system? From what you tell us? Those are only seen a words without substance.

One who understands the nature of salvation, "indwelt fellowship of love", fellowship with Christ who IS "love". In John15:15, His joy is meant to be in us, and to be ours.

"But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe.

Jesus rebuking willful unbelief...

All that the Father gives me will come to me...

Connecting that with Jn17:6, those who are "given", are believers; thus "given", is identically "belief".

He who ceases to believe, ceases to be "given".

and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.

Yet --- those who CHOOSE to leave, may; you're quoting from John6 --- how does the chapter end? (Vs67-70)

For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day."

None of the "given". Who are the "given"? John17:6: "Father, those Thou hast given Me out of the world --- Thine they WERE, and Thou gavest them to Me." Thine they were --- embodies BELIEF. Identically, "If God were your Father (if you believed/loved God), then you would love Me (He would give you to Me)." Jn8:42

Its all a lie?....

No lie; just must be properly understood, in context. And this post is full of context; verse after verse cited, with harmony clearly demonstrated...

 

[Rightglory]

Ben,

Our differences, are not great; you see "all made alive", I see "made alive through faith"; yet we agree that whoever stands before God in the end, but is ABSENT Jesus-in-their-hearts (unwritten in the Book of Life), perish.

Actually they are monumental.
Theologically, scripturally, you have omitted the primary work of Christ on the Cross. What you fail to realize is that those you call unbelievers will never stand in judgement. You have never explained just how they are raised from death in order to stand in judgement.
Since you beleive that a spiritual element, faith, grants a physical life, which I find quite remarkable theologically, you need to develop some kind of theology that will permit the unbelievers life so they can be in judgment.
If Christ did not redeem them, they are still under the condemnation of death through Adam. They simply return to dust as God promised in Gen 3:19, permanently. That is the end.
that may be bad enough but now you have a problem in explaing just how a dead man can hear and understand God. How can God call a dead man. See, you have the same problem, Calvinists have. They made up a theological answer which is not in scripture that God somehow, arbitrarily, by predestination already picked certain people to be saved and they were endowed with faith, which I presume they then believe as you do, that faith grants physical life.
Can you follow the theology here and explain your view in that light.
On the other hand, if you want to stay solely on a spiritual level, then what is the purpose of the Incarnation of Christ? What purpose does it have in your theology in light of this discussion?

There is a difference between the "First Resurrection", and the "Second"; the second is judgment to the condemned, the first (a thousand years earlier) is to the righteous to reign with Christ.

Granted there is a difference. Just as there are two deaths, there are two resurrections as well. The first death is physical which caused the spiritual separation, or spiritual death. It is the Second resurrection, the physical resurrection whereby all men will rise from the dead. the first resurrection is a spiritual resurrection which occurs at the regeneration of man through baptism. Rom 6:3-4 I believe. When mankind is made alive, they attain physical life. The resurrection of Christ guaranteed that all men will rise physically from the grave. I Cor 15: 14-19.
However, not all men experience the spiritual resurrection, not believing, thus they will endure eternal spiritual death, or the second death. The General resurrection is the ONLY physical resurrection there will be. There is no separation. When Christ comes, He comes in Victory, In glory at the end of the age. Eternity, the 8th day begins.
That is why believers, when they believe are reigning with Christ now. that is also why the unbelievers do not reign and will only experience the general resurrection to be judged, and endure the second death. It all aligns beautifully with Scripture if understood as it was once delievered to the saints and preserved for mankind for this age.

Rom6 admonishes us TO "put to death the flesh, but consider ourselves alive in Christ Jesus". Rom8 admonishes us "not to walk in the flesh --- if we do we must die; but if by the Spirit we are putting to death the flesh, we will live."

there you have it, spiritual resurrection, thus spiritual life In Christ. Made possible ONLY because Christ first gave man physical eternal existance as he was meant to be, all men, not just some. God does not lose any of his creatures bearing His Image.

 

[Rightglory]

Ormly,

Death to self is process.

Yes, same as spiritual life is a process. Salvation of our souls is a process, a life long process. You may call it sanctification, we call it Theosis.

 

[GenemZ]

It's not "concentrating on matters" --- it's "concentrating on HIM.

Succinctly, "Abide in Him...."

Well? You can start concentrating on Him here...

John 6:36-40 (New International Version)​

"But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe.
All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.

For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.

For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."


​

Reminder!

Jesus ALWAYS did the Father's will.

So? He will in no way lose even one that comes to him!

Or? Can Jesus mess up? Some think so.



It does not say in God's Word, "let's only concentrate on Him as long as what he said can be used to feed our lust to judge and condemn others?" Is that what we are to do?

Matthew 9:13 (New International Version)
​

"But go and learn what this means: 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.'

For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
​

Works were seen as sacrifices they offered to God as religion. The Jews Jesus spoke to were trying to be saved by their works. Some today are of the same mind set. Our works are to be done in Spirit and in Truth. Not to save us. But, to reveal that we are saved. Not by laws, and traditions of men.




In Christ, GeneZ



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[Ormly]

Ormly,
Yes, same as spiritual life is a process. Salvation of our souls is a process, a life long process. You may call it sanctification, we call it Theosis.

You are bound with seeing salvation as simply benefiting you; man centered. It is not. The way of the cross is for reasons eye hasn't seen nor ear heard, all unto the Father.

 

[Rightglory]

Ormly,

You are bound with seeing salvation as simply benefiting you; man centered. It is not. The way of the cross is for reasons eye hasn't seen nor ear heard, all unto the Father.

It was man or creature centered the moment God created man. It is ALL about God having union with man.

 

[GenemZ]

Death to self is process. It is the "way of the Cross" Pick it up. Can you now see that is what Christ is after when saying that?

Death to self, is meant for making way for experiencing the new LIFE!

2 Corinthians 3:18 (New International Version)
​

"And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit."
​

That LIFE in Christ, after self death, can only happen one way!

2 Peter 3:18
​

"But grow up in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever! Amen."​

It says, grace and knowledge!

Not! Ritual and tradition.

Not some church's laws.

Romans 12:2 (New American Standard Bible)​

"And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect."









.

​

 

[Ormly]

Ormly,

It was man or creature centered the moment God created man. It is ALL about God having union with man.

Wrong. It is all about man having union with God. That is why God created him. You need to change your perspective, the Bible will read different to you.

 

[Ormly]

Death to self if for making way for LIFE!

Er, "Life" is for enabling one to enter the process of becoming a son. Death to "Self"; "'The Way' of the Cross", is that process. Adam didn't possess that "Life". Jesus did. It is for us to have and because of the "Work of the Cross" it can now be offered to us.

 

[GenemZ]

Er, "Life" is for enabling one to enter the process of becoming a son. Death to "Self"; "'The Way' of the Cross", is that process. Adam didn't possess that "Life". Jesus did. It is for us to have and because of the "Work of the Cross" it can now be offered to us.

Adam was created functioning as a SON! He was created with life. He fell.

Luke 3:37-38 (New International Version)
​

"the son of Methuselah, the son of Enoch,
the son of Jared, the son of Mahalalel,
the son of Kenan, the son of Enosh,
the son of Seth, the son of Adam,
the son of God."
​

God created Adam in his image.

Remember? As a SON!

Adam was created in God's image, just as Seth was born in Adam's image.

Genesis 5:3 (New International Version)
​

"When Adam had lived 130 years, he had a son in his own likeness, in his own image; and he named him Seth."
​

On the day Adam ate the forbidden fruit he died. Not physically. Spiritually!

Adam became fallen! He took on a sin nature.

When Seth was born? It says he was not born in God's image. But, in Adam's image. For Seth was born with fallen nature. In Adam's image!

By means of being born of the Spirit and Mary, Jesus was born sinless as Adam had been originally created. Without a sin nature.



Now? When we are born again? We are declared to have been crucified with Christ! The body we now find our souls in, has been declared crucified with Christ. Can a dead man die?

Can what has been declared by God to be forensically dead, be the means for us losing our salvation?

How?

Galatians 2:20 (New International Version)
​

"I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me."
​

Can a dead man have his sin counted against him? When what sins is declared by God to be already dead?

Romans 4:8 (New International Version)
​

"Blessed is the man
whose sin the Lord will never count against him."
​

It does not say, blessed in the man who never sins! The "blessed man" in this case, is the man who has entered into salvation! He rests in God. His flesh has been declared crucified with Christ. His sins therefore, are not to be counted against him.

Romans 4:8 (New International Version)
​

"Blessed is the man
whose sin the Lord will never count against him."
​

Why even say that? Because he still sins!












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[Ormly]

Adam was created functioning as a SON! He was created with life. He fell
.

Adam was created to become divine much as Jesus was born to become. Both first needed to be proven as humans that we could follow in their footsteps . . . as humans. Adam was created to function as a son with divinity imparted to him as a transfiguration experience.. He failed. Jesus was born as a Son; with the Nature of God imputed to Him. He succeeded and was transfigured. The LIFE He had as a man, we now can have because of the "Work of the Cross". This is the message of the Gospel. . . . ."That you HAVE Life and have IT more abundantly."

 

[beloved57]

Adam was created to become divine much as Jesus was born to become. Both first needed to be proven as humans that we could follow in their footsteps . . . as humans. Adam was created to function as a son with divinity imparted to him as a transfiguration experience.. He failed. Jesus was born as a Son; with imputed to Him. He succeeded and was transfigured. The LIFE He had as a man, we now can have because of the "Work of the Cross". That is the message of the Gospel.

Where you get this fairy tale from ? lol not from the bible..