Can "salvation", be "forfeit"?

[Ormly]

genez,

yes, the dogma established and taught by the Apostles and witnessed by untold Christians for centuries and no man has changed it. Can you say the same for your interpretation. Does it have authentic historical witness as being the Gospel once given?
It makes him a member of the Body of Christ.

Your "historical witness" is terribly flawed. God began restoring His "Apostolic" intentions of the cross with Luther. He is still revealing them to His "becoming sons".

 

[sawdust]

That was an affirmative?

You are stating that infant Baptism enters one into salvation. That, that was taught by the Apostles. Right?

Just trying to be sure what you are saying here.


In Christ, GeneZ



.

Looks like you didn't need to believe in Jesus after all genez. I mean, you have Abraham as your father therfore you must have been born into the Kingdom from birth.

Infant baptism enters one into the body of Christ? Sounds like "Pharisee magical thinking" to me.

peace

 

[sawdust]

sawdust,

Yes, and all souls went to Hades, Ghenna, Sheol.
If so, them most of the wicked world will be also as God said to Saul,

You are making a presumtuous leap. Most of the "wicked world" do not believe in the Lord.

I Sam 28:3-7. Because of Sauls great wickedness God is no longer responding to His prayers. Hardly a saved man, I would think.

Stone the crows! If God answered every prayer just becaue a person is saved, He would go insane. (Or He would be insane to do so ) God answers prayer on the basis of His will.

If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be given you. Jn.15:7

Ever wondered why sometimnes your prayers aren't answered? It's because you are not praying according to God's will and you are not praying according to His will because you don't know the Word.

Not only that He then asked for a medium the Medium of Endor. A regression here, because he had earlier established them in Isreal and God asked him to slay all of them.
Then verses 15-19 hardly gives an indication of even a repentant person.
Where does it say that we are saved and separated from God.
I think you are grossly misinterpreting the Word of God and the relationship that Saul no longer had with God.

And I dare say you think that it is I who is grossly misinterpreting the Word because it couldn't possibly be you right?

If the Lord did not consider Saul to still be his child even after all his wickedness, He would not have sent Samuel up from the grave. The very fact that it was indeed Samuel speaks volumes, yet you seem to be deaf to this point.

Now you say it did not end well. Kinda contradictory. Any relationship with God that ends means that person is not saved. It does not mean he did not possess salvation at one point in his life. Any believer who falls possessed salvation, that is what he forfeits when he departs the Kingdom, the Body, being IN Christ, being a believer. He becomes an unbeliever and they do not see heaven.

It is not contradictory if you understood, that once a child of God, you are always are a child of God. Do you really think Him to be so fickle and unknowing as to who are His and who are not? I never said the relationship ended, only the quality of the relationship changed from good to bad.

It means Saul began his relationship in the filling of the Spirit but he ended it under the control of his flesh. You cannot fall out of the hand of God. You can stop working in the power sphere of His Spirit (being filled with the Spirit) and live in the power sphere of your flesh (walking after the flesh). That is falling from grace. It is not falling from salvation. If you do that, the Lord's grip will get tighter and tighter until you wake up to yourself or die the sin unto death (whichever comes first). Saul died the sin unto death. It is the most miserable way to die for it is filled with fear and regret. He most probably would have died more peacefully if he had never believed in the Lord, but he did believe.

You cannot undo what the Lord has done and He doesn't go around adopting people as His children who don't believe in Him. You did not save yourself because you believed in Christ. You were saved because the Lord God said if you believe in Christ you will be saved. Yet now, after having been given salvation, you want to turn it around and say the keeping of your salvation is dependent upon your faith. It was the Word that saved you and it is the Word that keeps you, not your faith. Faith is the mechanism through which we know the Word to be true. It is the mechanism through which we live the saved life. Faith is not the Saviour, the Word is the Saviour and Christ is the Word.

peace

 

[Rightglory]

genez,

You are stating that infant Baptism enters one into salvation. That, that was taught by the Apostles. Right?

Right.

 

[Rightglory]

Ormly,

As far as that goes, Luther is outdated as well, Joseph Smith had his visions in the 1820's as I recall. The Jehovah Witnesses with Charles Taze Russell in 1872 have that beat as well.

 

[Rightglory]

Sawdust,

Looks like you didn't need to believe in Jesus after all genez. I mean, you have Abraham as your father therfore you must have been born into the Kingdom from birth.
Infant baptism enters one into the body of Christ? Sounds like "Pharisee magical thinking" to me.

If you doubt it why not be a Berean and prove me incorrect.

 

[GenemZ]

Ormly,

As far as that goes, Luther is outdated as well, Joseph Smith had his visions in the 1820's as I recall. The Jehovah Witnesses with Charles Taze Russell in 1872 have that beat as well.

In other words? Who ever got there first with their false teachings, and was established? Is to be the standard for all others to conform to?



.

 

[Rightglory]

sawdust,

You are making a presumtuous leap. Most of the "wicked world" do not believe in the Lord.

but neither did Saul. So where is the monsterous leap? There are probably millions of former beleivers and in the OT, since that is where we are discussing this issue, who were in Hades, but were not take captive by Christ's entrance into Hades. But by your interpretation they are all in heaven.

Stone the crows! If God answered every prayer just becaue a person is saved, He would go insane. (Or He would be insane to do so ) God answers prayer on the basis of His will.

He hears all prayers, or do you think He is incapable of such a feat. But answering them is another matter. He was not answering Saul. It is so revealed to you, so you know.

If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be given you. Jn.15:7

Which proves my point and Scripture denies your assumption. The text is referencing believers, not just anyone, such as Saul, who is no longer a believer.

Ever wondered why sometimnes your prayers aren't answered? It's because you are not praying according to God's will and you are not praying according to His will because you don't know the Word.

Again, verifying just what I stated. Saul was not in communion with God. He was not meeting the requirments, God had cut him off. Read the scriptures with focus and not with your blinders.

And I dare say you think that it is I who is grossly misinterpreting the Word because it couldn't possibly be you right?

Well, when all Christians and all the Church Fathers for the last 2000 years have never stated that Saul was a saved person, I would go with them. Since the early ones were taught by the Apostles themselves. Since it has never changed, no person has introduced to my knowledge a break through notice that Saul is now saved, haveing departed from God. If something has never been understood, believed the same way from the beginning, it is probably false. History has proven that over and over and over again.

If the Lord did not consider Saul to still be his child even after all his wickedness, He would not have sent Samuel up from the grave. The very fact that it was indeed Samuel speaks volumes, yet you seem to be deaf to this point.

Hardly, Having been a protestant and having also taught from a protestant perspective I never read, or knew anyone thought that Saul was a saved person. So, I checked several of my commentaries and lo and behold not one of them claims Saul was saved. They all emphasize that Saul had long departed from God and that God had also departed from Saul. It might do you well to maybe read some other authorities even within the protestant melieu, rather than depend on your sole personal interpretation.

It is not contradictory if you understood, that once a child of God, you are always are a child of God.

Well, there is your first error. Scripture never teaches what you just stated. The entire NT is written almost specifically warning against such a teaching. Isn't any wonder you think Saul is saved. One can be saved whether one is out of Christ (God) or with Him. One wonders why the difference that faith makes then.

You cannot fall out of the hand of God. You can stop working in the power sphere of His Spirit (being filled with the Spirit) and live in the power sphere of your flesh (walking after the flesh). That is falling from grace.

It may work for your personal theology to change the meaning of terms. But that has never been what scripture has taught.

If you do that, the Lord's grip will get tighter and tighter until you wake up to yourself or die the sin unto death (whichever comes first).

Paul strongly disagrees with you in Rom 1: 18-26, Eph 5:5 written directly to Christian believers.

Saul died the sin unto death

Since physical death has never been and end for man, it is referencing spiritual death which is exactly in line with what scripture teaches throughout.

He most probably would have died more peacefully if he had never believed in the Lord, but he did believe.

And his punishment will be worse BECAUSE he had believed.

You cannot undo what the Lord has done and He doesn't go around adopting people as His children who don't believe in Him.

At the time of adoption they did believe. That is what makes one a believer. But our spiritual relationship is a mutual agreement. We promised to abide, to obey Him. When we do not and we resist His discipline, as did Saul, then man is the one who leaves and God does leave man as well.

You did not save yourself because you believed in Christ.

Unfortunately scripture disagrees with you throughout. It is solely the responsibility of man to either save himself or lose himself. God will work with man ONLY so long as man stays faithful to Him. God does not reward the wicked and a believer turned to unbelief, is wicked.

Yet now, after having been given salvation, you want to turn it around and say the keeping of your salvation is dependent upon your faith. It was the Word that saved you and it is the Word that keeps you, not your faith.

Both are dependent on ones faith. Entry is by faith, "Justification". Then once entered we are saved through our faith. Salvation equals faith. NO faith, lack of faith, unfaithfulness, is loss of faith and loss of the inheritance. Follow faith, one follows salvation.

Faith is not the Saviour, the Word is the Saviour and Christ is the Word.

you have it a bit turned around. Restudy the concept of faith. Faith comes by hearing. We are all taught by theFather, it is up to us to respond by faith. Very simple, but it seems to be a stumbling block to many.

 

[GenemZ]

Sawdust,

If you doubt it why not be a Berean and prove me incorrect.

If anyone can believe that simply baptizing an infant in a little water saves them? An infant that does not yet know who Christ is?

That speaks volumes about what the one who is believing that. We now know what such a one believing that, can not begin to comprehend.

How does one correct one who does not have the capacity to know they have been corrected?


As far as Martin Luther? Finally, the RCC has a good man as a pope! One who can think with honesty that cuts through non-thinking bias.

Read here:


http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article3492299.ece


There is at least hope for the RCC now. They have someone willing to admit their mistakes in humility. Up until now, they have been making the claim that they were the first church and had to be right. Right?

See how its to be done?



In Christ, GeneZ



.

 

[GenemZ]

Looks like you didn't need to believe in Jesus after all genez. I mean, you have Abraham as your father therfore you must have been born into the Kingdom from birth.

Infant baptism enters one into the body of Christ? Sounds like "Pharisee magical thinking" to me.

peace

In a day back then when most of its members were superstitious, ignorant peasants? Such a way of governing over the people 'in the name of God' could work. That is why it was able to become established.

It also explains why it was broken away from as men became more educated and more autonomous souls.

But? Like Islam is also today? Some denominations of Christianity have been locked back in time, and never advanced up to the level that people today are capable of thinking.

There will always be people who do not want to take responsibility for their own life before God. They lay their volitions on the alter of such churches, and surrender and sacrifice their God given right to think for themselves.

Psalm 19:7 (New International Version)
​

"The law of the LORD is perfect,
reviving the soul.
The statutes of the LORD are trustworthy,
making wise the simple."
​

When any church denies its people the fullness of God's Word? They are denying what would make the simple wise. And, they do so when they lie against the Word, saying the people are too simple to be given the Word in depth.

That kind of church in turn, stands between the Lord and the people... keeping the simple, simple.. by offering of man made religion designed to keep them from tasting what the grace of God can do for a soul that hungers for the truth of God's Word.

James 1:5 (New International Version)
​

"If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him."
​

But?

What do some churches tell us?

You are not to have wisdom. You are to do as you are told! Be obedient! You are too stupid to think for yourself, So, you must do as we tell you to think! Period! We were the first. We know better!

Yet?

Matthew 19:30 (New International Version)
​

"But many who are first will be last, and many who are last will be first."
​

God is just and fair. And, CAPABLE!

There will always be some souls who find truth, no matter how corrupt a so called church may become over time.

2 Timothy 3:12 (New International Version)
​

"In fact, everyone who wants to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted."
​

And, the worst persecution will come from the same place it came to Christ and the Apostles. From organized religion that thinks it has God, but does not know God.

For, religion feels justified in God's name. Just like Islam thinks, as well. Locked in time.

Persecution is strong in regards to an organized religion when it holds real political power.

God saw to it to destroy such theocratic strongholds. He blew up the dams after they formed. One stick of dynamite had the name "Luther" written on it. Blew a big hole in what was holding the water back.

Amos 5:24 (New King James Version)
​

"But let justice run down like water,
And righteousness like a mighty stream."
​

All organized religion can say when someone finds grace and secures God's Word? "Dam!"

They will try to dam it back up with lies and misinformation for all those under them who are not willing to think for themselves.



Such is life.....



Grace and peace, GeneZ




.

 

[Rightglory]

genez,

If anyone can believe that simply baptizing an infant in a little water saves them? An infant that does not yet know who Christ is?

You make assertions but cannot either prove me incorrect, not can you prove yours is correct. It is simply your assertion which means very little.
the Bible also teaches it, but obviously not by your interpretation.

As far as Martin Luther? Finally, the RCC has a good man as a pope! One who can think with honesty that cuts through non-thinking bias.

What has either to do with the discussion?

 

[Rightglory]

genez,

If anyone can believe that simply baptizing an infant in a little water saves them? An infant that does not yet know who Christ is?

You make assertions but cannot either prove me incorrect, not can you prove yours is correct. It is simply your assertion which means very little.
the Bible also teaches it, but obviously not by your interpretation.

As far as Martin Luther? Finally, the RCC has a good man as a pope! One who can think with honesty that cuts through non-thinking bias.

What has either to do with the discussion?
Just to add a comment from your response to Sawdust on this statement..

There will always be some souls who find truth, no matter how corrupt a so called church may become over time.

so based on scripture, you think that Christ and His Church can become corrupt. you might want to do a serious study to see what the definition of the Body of Christ might be and how it was established in this world by the disciples under authority of Christ and the Holy Spirit. I is just amazing want people will say about Christ.

 

[sawdust]

It is solely the responsibility of man to either save himself or lose himself.

We promised to abide, to obey Him.

These two quotes of yours speak volumes.

Not only do you consider yourself your own Saviour you have the audacity to make the Lord as reliant upon your word as you must be on His.

Your theology does not seek to liberate men from that which they have no hope of doing themselves but to control them until such time as they must meet the very death Christ died to save men from.

You continue to wave your 2,000 years of Church dogma under the noses of men. As for me, I will let the life I live be my testament to the words I speak.

I have no more to say to you for I cannot encourage one who relies so heavily upon themself. Hopefully though there are some here, having despaired of their own righteousness for salvation, might heed the Good News of their eternal security.

have a nice day.

 

[Ben johnson]

These two quotes of yours speak volumes.

Not only do you consider yourself your own Saviour you have the audacity to make the Lord as reliant upon your word as you must be on His.

Hi, Sawdust; not that I'm speaking for "Rightglory", but I do understand his position (mostly).

It is solely the responsibility of man to either save himself or lose himself.

There is only one Savior --- and Rightglory fully acknowledges this. Yet --- man's participation in his salvation, is Scripturally sound.

"Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in these things. [/b]As you do you will save yourselves..." 1Tim4:16

The concept of "save ourselves", is well established, in this verse and others. See 1Pet1:9 ("obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls"). It simply does not conflict "One Savior", to understand that we choose to accept His salvation, or not.

And that it is our choice, rather than God's, is the only view that fits these verses.

Your theology does not seek to liberate men from that which they have no hope of doing themselves but to control them until such time as they must meet the very death Christ died to save men from.

You're condemning Rightglory for something you know he does not hold; it is CHRIST who saves us, not ourselves. Yet "save ourselves", Scripturally speaking, conveys a conscious choice.

You continue to wave your 2,000 years of Church dogma under the noses of men. As for me, I will let the life I live be my testament to the words I speak.

That's fine; but Scripture speaks very well also.

I have no more to say to you for I cannot encourage one who relies so heavily upon themself.

I've never heard Rightglory claiming he relies on himself; but rather, He, I, and you, rely on God. It's just that we perceive that we choose (by faith) to rely on Him, while others (perhaps including you) perceive that GOD chooses FOR us (that we will rely on Him, consequently because of His prior choice).

Hopefully though there are some here, having despaired of their own righteousness for salvation, might heed the Good News of their eternal security.

Now, Sawdust, where have you ever heard Rightglory speak of "his own righteousness"? He and I fully understand that we HAVE no righteousness, except that which flows through us from Jesus. "God made Him who knew no sin, to be sin on our behalf, so that through Him we may become the righteousness of God."

have a nice day.

I know if I have erred about Rightglory's views, he will correct me; but if so, the errors will be small.

You are protesting positions that no one has asserted.

What do you think of the positions conveyed in this post?

 

[Rightglory]

Sawdust,

These two quotes of yours speak volumes.
Not only do you consider yourself your own Saviour you have the audacity to make the Lord as reliant upon your word as you must be on His.

Saving my soul has absolutely nothing with me being my Savior. Christ is the Savior of the World, every single human being. He did what I could not do. He did it so that man could do what man was created to do, be in union with God, working freely with Him. It was all work. Do you think Adam was just sitting on his "behind" and God was the one ruling, replenishing, and subdue the earth?
If the fall did not happen, Christ is totally unnecessary. But you and I would be working diligently saving our souls. We would be doing what Adam was doing before the fall. You seem to be confusing what Christ did, and what man was created to do, which he was restored or made capable of doing because of Christ. You seem to have missed the whole Gospel message. You want God to do for you what He specifically created you to do, including the work. Eph 2:10.
The salvation of our souls is all about work. We will be judged on what WE DO, not that we had faith.

Your theology does not seek to liberate men from that which they have no hope of doing themselves but to control them until such time as they must meet the very death Christ died to save men from

Christ did not die to save you from hell. He died to save you from death and sin. He freed you so you could save and condemn yourself instead of being condemned by one man for one sin. Maybe you like that better? You don't believe God could be just? You seem also to believe that God would actually destroy a creature that bears His Image. In human terms, could you willfully, arbitrarily destroy one of your children?
Heaven and Hell is made possible ONLY because of the Work of Christ on the Cross.

You continue to wave your 2,000 years of Church dogma under the noses of men. As for me, I will let the life I live be my testament to the words I speak.

My Church is the Church Christ established on this earth for mankind. If you think I am waving dogma it is really Christ that is waving His Gospel (dogma) at you. Can you prove otherwise?
That you prefer your own brand of religion and depend on your interpretation is your choice. You are not alone, in the least.
I will continue to trust and have faith in that He can do what He says He will do. To preserve His Gospel and His Church until He comes again.

I have no more to say to you for I cannot encourage one who relies so heavily upon themself. Hopefully though there are some here, having despaired of their own righteousness for salvation, might heed the Good News of their eternal security.

For those who are serious about their salvation and don't want to depend on their individualization of religion and their own intellect will not follow your advice. They will heed the Holy Spirit calling to join Him and work with Him to save their souls.
I will continue to pray that the Holy Spirit will so enlighten you as well.

 

[Rightglory]

Ben,

I know if I have erred about Rightglory's views, he will correct me; but if so, the errors will be small.

No errors. Right on target.
However, have you given more thought to th phrase, "all made alive". Can you see it is the Incarnatin, it is physical life which makes the spirtual possible. It is why Christ came, redeem mankind, to overcome death, made alive. Faith cannot grant physical life, because then you have no answer for all the dead being raised.

 

[GenemZ]

These two quotes of yours speak volumes.

Not only do you consider yourself your own Saviour you have the audacity to make the Lord as reliant upon your word as you must be on His.

Your theology does not seek to liberate men from that which they have no hope of doing themselves but to control them until such time as they must meet the very death Christ died to save men from.

You continue to wave your 2,000 years of Church dogma under the noses of men. As for me, I will let the life I live be my testament to the words I speak.

I have no more to say to you for I cannot encourage one who relies so heavily upon themself. Hopefully though there are some here, having despaired of their own righteousness for salvation, might heed the Good News of their eternal security.

have a nice day.

A picture is worth a thousand words.





.
​

 

[Ormly]

Ben,

No errors. Right on target.
However, have you given more thought to th phrase, "all made alive". Can you see it is the Incarnatin, it is physical life which makes the spirtual possible. It is why Christ came, redeem mankind, to overcome death, made alive. Faith cannot grant physical life, because then you have no answer for all the dead being raised.

Death to "Self" makes spiritual life possible. That is what Jesus came to explain and make possible. It is called the "Way of the Cross" made possible by the "Work of the Cross".

 

[Ben johnson]

No errors. Right on target.

However, have you given more thought to th phrase, "all made alive". Can you see it is the Incarnatin, it is physical life which makes the spirtual possible. It is why Christ came, redeem mankind, to overcome death, made alive.

Our differences, are not great; you see "all made alive", I see "made alive through faith"; yet we agree that whoever stands before God in the end, but is ABSENT Jesus-in-their-hearts (unwritten in the Book of Life), perish.

Faith cannot grant physical life, because then you have no answer for all the dead being raised.

There is a difference between the "First Resurrection", and the "Second"; the second is judgment to the condemned, the first (a thousand years earlier) is to the righteous to reign with Christ.

Death to "Self" makes spiritual life possible. That is what Jesus came to explain and make possible.

That's right; and throughout Scripture it is a constant walk, requiring "diligence" and "perseverance". Look at Eph4; is it possible TO walk in darkness, as the heathen do, excluded from the life in God? Yes.

Rom6 admonishes us TO "put to death the flesh, but consider ourselves alive in Christ Jesus". Rom8 admonishes us "not to walk in the flesh --- if we do we must die; but if by the Spirit we are putting to death the flesh, we will live."

It is called the "Way of the Cross" made possible by the "Work of the Cross".

And per John6:27, believing is God's work that WE WORK.

Jude 24 says "God is able to keep us, and to present us blameless before God"; but 20-21 says "build YOURSELVES in holy faith, keep YOURSELVES in God's love!"

We are Christ's house, IF we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end. Heb3:6

 

[A Brother In Christ]

still working to keep salvation.... romans 11:6