We are not to hurt anyone for any reason.

[itsfinished]

2Ti 4:2 preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and exhort, with complete patience and teaching. 2Ti 4:3 For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, 2Ti 4:4 and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths.

Your scriptures don't line up with your attitude : )

 

[Zecryphon]

2Ti 4:2 preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and exhort, with complete patience and teaching. 2Ti 4:3 For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, 2Ti 4:4 and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths.

Your scriptures don't line up with your attitude : )

I'm rebuking and exhorting and I don't need your approval to do so. Giver is not presenting sound teaching and has itching ears and is preaching false teachings. Not everyone in the body of Christ will sit back and let it go. Some of us do confront it when we see it.

 

[itsfinished]

and still I see no meekness or patience

 

[fated]

What are you trying to tell me? Are you saying that Roman Catholics ignore the Word of God? Then I agree with you. Until Emperor Constantine the Christian Church agreed with me.

So, your claim is that fathers unnaturally allowed their little girls to be gang raped until Emperor Constantine.

 

[itsfinished]

What I have seen so far isn't false teaching. What makes it false to anyone would be refusing to hear the word of God. Wanting to trust in themselves to save themselves and others rather than rely on God. I've posted many things on here and noone seems to be able to show me any scripture to refute it. Yet, are absorbed in attacking giver.

 

[fated]

2Ti 4:2 preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and exhort, with complete patience and teaching. 2Ti 4:3 For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, 2Ti 4:4 and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths.

Your scriptures don't line up with your attitude : )

It seems as if most Christians would continue to defend their flock from evil individuals (take St. Paul for instance), but generally resist unjust assertions of power from civil authorities (Like Jesus), which often lead to their death (also like Jesus Christ).

There seems to be some desire to defend your own right to not defend yourself and others, and it would not be just of me accept this perspective. It is, as I have said, your responsibility to defend the poor and oppressed, even with violence. That is morality, and THIS FIGHT you are waging is in order to assuage your own conscience of something. Abraham's lack of just action lead his wife to being seized twice and his exiling his own wife and son. Don't be like that, "Be not afraid!"

 

[itsfinished]

I'm most certainly not the one that has to defend what Jesus has said. Sorry to disappoint. The words of our Lord stand. We shouldn't put what we 'think' into the gospel because it certainly doesn't belong there. So because a person thinks it's wrong to stand by and watch a violent crime doesn't make it the gospel. But when Jesus said render evil for evil unto no man...................who is going to be the one to say he didn't mean it?

Nice talking this morning. Have a good day.

 

[fated]

I'm most certainly not the one that has to defend what Jesus has said. Sorry to disappoint. The words of our Lord stand. We shouldn't put what we 'think' into the gospel because it certainly doesn't belong there. So because a person thinks it's wrong to stand by and watch a violent crime doesn't make it the gospel. But when Jesus said render evil for evil unto no man...................who is going to be the one to say he didn't mean it?

Nice talking this morning. Have a good day.

Natural law dictates that if a man should strike at my child, that it is my responsibility to defend them. Is that not morality?

 

[Zecryphon]

and still I see no meekness or patience

And you won't. Now do you wish to address anything having to do with the topic at hand or do you wish to continue to make off topic posts and derail the thread? I have no patience for people who think of those who disagree with their pacifism as bloodthirsty and people who don't have enough faith in God to protect them. The people who oppose Giver have been called pretty much murderers throughout this whole thread. We've been told we have no faith in God. Tell me how much of that can you take before you lose your patience?

Here are some of Giver's loving answers:

The danger of disobeying God is the loss of one’s soul. You should see that a Christian isn’t part of the world, and should never be in the world’s army or police force.

If the first part of what he says is true, then we're all screwed as we have all disobeyed God and lost our souls.

Now most Christians since Constantine have ignored what Jesus taught about killing and instead bought into man’s teachings. It seem man would rather trust in their weapons and government then God.

The World because it doesn’t know God needs a police force and army. The government makes laws and laws are for the lawless. Christians don’t need laws.

Man there's some false teaching from Giver! Christians don't need laws. Christ, disagreed with this as He said, if you love me you will keep my commandments, which are laws.

I know what you are saying, but you are wrong, and you can’t show me where Jesus, the New Testament Word, says you are right. You most likely, are coming from modern day teachings (teachers), and their lack of faith, trust in Jesus.

Here he claims to know the hearts of others and comments on their lack of faith in Jesus, simply because they disagree with him. Yeah, that's REAL loving isn't it?

Well you have accepted the watered down version of those two verses. I wonder if you can find enough water to water down the following verse?
(Matthew 5:39) “You have learnt how it was said: ‘Eye for eye and tooth for tooth.’ But I say this to you: offer the wicked man no resistance.”

You can just feel the love can't ya? LOL

Why don’t you let the Holy Spirit teach you then studying the Word of God would not be so hard?

Now there's a personal attack on someone's ability to study the word of God that was not warranted.

You might be surprised who need to wise up.

Apparently those who disagree with Giver are the ones who need to wise up. You dare come after me for my attitude when he's pullin' crap like this?

I believe it means that one who uses a sword dies. It means if you disobey God one is dead. That doesn’t mean physical death but spiritual.

And we're back to the false teaching again. Man, you've really chosen a great guy to defend here.

For me to answer you comments we would need to get into what the difference is between a baby Christian and a Spiritual Christian.

Translation: Baby Christian are those who disagree with Giver. Spiritual Christian is Giver.

Someone who is living the Word of God would never be in a position to shoot a mad man on a killing spree. A person living the word of God would normally not carry a weapon. I know they might be hunting animals, but Jesus would not, unless he gave the person much, much grace, place one of his in a position like that. It is the world’s job to take care of situations like what you described. Remember a Christian is not of the world. God would never place one of his in a situation that would be beyond their ability to resist. Christians are to obey God no matter what. Jesus will always give them the grace to live his Word.

Those who carry weapons are not of God and are not living according to God, according to Giver. I don't believe he has the authority to make this judgment.

He had great faith, and hopefully after Jesus ascended into heaven he was baptized and was filled with the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit would have taught him that killing was wrong for a man of God.

Assumes that the person is not of God and teaches falsely that killing is explicitly wrong. The commandment is against murder, not killing.

Now here we see Giver plainly contradicting himself:

Don’tyou know that nothing good or bad can happen to you unless Jesus allows it to happen?

and contrast that with

You go ahead and create hypothetical situations, which seem to be impossible to live without disobeying God. God promised us he would not put us in such situations.

Jesus didn’t tell his disciples to go buy swords.

That is an absolute lie that is refuted by this scripture:

Luk 22:36 He said to them, "But now let the one who has a moneybag take it, and likewise a knapsack. And let the one who has no sword sell his cloak and buy one.

All you are telling us is that you haven’t learned to take orders. You some how don’t have enough faith that God will take care of you and that his will, will be done.

Gotta love the LOVE of Giver, huh? Please, here he is proclaiming who has faith and who doesn't. Not according to the scriptures, but according to his own personal bias and judgment.

What is so sad is more people are raped or killed by their parents, relatives, priest, and pastors. How many of them have been stopped by a gun or sword?

I've asked for proof for this statement three times now and still have no proof for it. That's very telling.

What are you trying to tell me? Are you saying that Roman Catholics ignore the Word of God? Then I agree with you. Until Emperor Constantine the Christian Church agreed with me.

Here he flames the entire RCC in one fell swoop. Why was that neccessary? There are plenty more quotes I could provide from Giver that show he's just as bad as you think I am. So I suggest you put both of us on ignore since we are openly engaged in behavior you find unbecoming a Christian. I also suggest that before you defend people on this board and attack others, you get to know the people you are speaking up for.

 

[Giver]

And you won't. Now do you wish to address anything having to do with the topic at hand or do you wish to continue to make off topic posts and derail the thread? I have no patience for people who think of those who disagree with their pacifism as bloodthirsty and people who don't have enough faith in God to protect them. The people who oppose Giver have been called pretty much murderers throughout this whole thread. We've been told we have no faith in God. Tell me how much of that can you take before you lose your patience?

Here are some of Giver's loving answers:



If the first part of what he says is true, then we're all screwed as we have all disobeyed God and lost our souls.





Man there's some false teaching from Giver! Christians don't need laws. Christ, disagreed with this as He said, if you love me you will keep my commandments, which are laws.
Read the following verse and ask God for some understanding.

(1 Timothy 1:8-11) “We know, of course, that the Law is good, but only provided it is treated like any law, in the understanding that laws are not framed for people who are good. On the contrary, they are for criminals and revolutionaries, for the irreligious and the wicked, for the sacrilegious and the irreverent; they are for people who kill their fathers or mothers and for murderers, for those who are immoral with women or with boys or with men, for liars and for perjurers and for everything else that is contrary to the sound teaching that goes with the Good News of the glory of the blessed God, the gospel that was entrusted to me.”





Here he claims to know the hearts of others and comments on their lack of faith in Jesus, simply because they disagree with him. Yeah, that's REAL loving isn't it?



You can just feel the love can't ya? LOL



Now there's a personal attack on someone's ability to study the word of God that was not warranted.



Apparently those who disagree with Giver are the ones who need to wise up. You dare come after me for my attitude when he's pullin' crap like this?



And we're back to the false teaching again. Man, you've really chosen a great guy to defend here.



Translation: Baby Christian are those who disagree with Giver. Spiritual Christian is Giver.



Those who carry weapons are not of God and are not living according to God, according to Giver. I don't believe he has the authority to make this judgment.



Assumes that the person is not of God and teaches falsely that killing is explicitly wrong. The commandment is against murder, not killing.

Now here we see Giver plainly contradicting himself:



and contrast that with





That is an absolute lie that is refuted by this scripture:

Luk 22:36 He said to them, "But now let the one who has a moneybag take it, and likewise a knapsack. And let the one who has no sword sell his cloak and buy one.



Gotta love the LOVE of Giver, huh? Please, here he is proclaiming who has faith and who doesn't. Not according to the scriptures, but according to his own personal bias and judgment.



I've asked for proof for this statement three times now and still have no proof for it. That's very telling.



Here he flames the entire RCC in one fell swoop. Why was that neccessary? There are plenty more quotes I could provide from Giver that show he's just as bad as you think I am. So I suggest you put both of us on ignore since we are openly engaged in behavior you find unbecoming a Christian. I also suggest that before you defend people on this board and attack others, you get to know the people you are speaking up for.

(Luke 22:36-38) “But now if you have a purse, take it; if you have a haversack, do the same; if you have no sword, sell your cloak and buy one, because I tell you these words of scripture have to be fulfilled in me; He let himself be taken for a criminal, Yes, what scripture says about me is even now reaching its fulfillment.’ Lord,’ they said’ there are two swords here now,’ He said to them, ‘That is enough!”

(Luke 22:38) “Lord, they said ‘there are two swords here now,’ He said to them, ‘that is enough!

Here is what some bible scholars said about that passage of scripture: The Apostles have taken the words of Jesus too literally and he closes the conversation abruptly. Also,

K. The Apostles have taken the words of Jesus too literally and he closes the conversation abruptly.

Jerusalem Bible: J. The purse to buy, the sword to procure by force the necessities of life. All this is symbolic of a mission in a hostile world.

 

[Giver]

So, your claim is that fathers unnaturally allowed their little girls to be gang raped until Emperor Constantine.

If Jesus allowed it they would.

 

[fated]

If Jesus allowed it they would.

That is very sick morality, Giver. The morality of a false god.

 

[Giver]

That is very sick morality, Giver. The morality of a false god.

(Matthew 6:9-13)”Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
11 Give us this day our daily bread.
12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen. (King James)

 

[fated]

(Matthew 6:9-13)”Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
11 Give us this day our daily bread.
12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen. (King James)

And in Heaven children are gang raped? Or are we to assume it is good to make life more heavenly by preventing gang rape?

 

[Jet_A_Jockey]

"For though we live in the world, we do not wage war as the world does. The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds. We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ." 2Co.10:3-5

okay, its a passage about spiritual warfare. And even so, we are not discussing waging war, we are talking about defending the innocent. the bible teaches against vengeance, and it promotes defending and helping those in need.

 

[Jet_A_Jockey]

That is very sick morality, Giver. The morality of a false god.

its just lazy man's theology. It's when one expects God to do everything, while in truth God expects man to do for Him.

 

[Giver]

its just lazy man's theology. It's when one expects God to do everything, while in truth God expects man to do for Him.

Sounds like human wisdom to me. Can you show us scripture where Jesus said that?

(1 Corinthians 1:19-21) “As scripture says: I shall destroy the wisdom of the wise and bring to nothing all the learning of the learned. Where are the philosophers now? Where are the scribes? Where are any of our thinkers today? Do you see now how God has shown up the foolishness of human wisdom? If it was God’s wisdom that human wisdom should not know God, it was because God wanted to save those who have faith through the foolishness of the message that we preach.”

 

[Rick Otto]

1Ti 5:8 - But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel. Survival is provision #1.
Jet_A_J is correct.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

You should have notice that John was still under the Old Testament Law.

All the Apostles, including Paul and all the Judeans/Circumcision of the Mosaic Law were.

Well at least until their "heaven and land" passed away.
LOVE is the fulfillment of the Law of Christ. Peace

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Matthew 5:18 "For amen I am saying to ye, till ever may-be-passing-away/parelqh <3928> (5632) the Heaven and the Land, iota one or one horn not no may-be-passing-away/parelqh <3928> (5632) from the Law, till ever all shall-be-becoming/genhtai <1096> (5638) "

Revelation 21:4 and the God shall be out-rubbing every tear out of their eyes, and the death shall not be any more, nor sorrow, nor crying, nor shall there be any more pain, that the former-things pass away/aphlqon <565> (5627).'

 

[fated]

This discussion should be viewed through the eyes of posterity.

We, as Christian, are devoted to creating on Earth, a reflection of Heaven. We do this with our moral, social, and political systems. These have been formed to a great extent by the Church for the last 2000 years which proceeds directly from the Jewish law. Both of these, it must be noted, accept truth from where ever it persists, and the Church takes it as a deposit that unfolds the mystery of God Himself.

Now, our political systems, at their best, are set up to protect the poor and oppressed from the powerful and well connected. This was Jesus Christ's vocation, if you will, during His earthly ministry, which we read about in the New Testament.

He was not pitted against individuals, so much as various governmental systems and groups of individuals. These were those in authority, to whom He professed the Word (Who is Jesus Christ). For this witnessing He was killed.

We do not see Him in a position to defend a person in the way you are describing as "supernaturally" immoral.

I am one who is willing to shed my blood and give my efforts for the creation of an earthly Kingdom of Heaven.

Here is an example:
Suppose there is a violent mentally handicapped person who is a danger to others.
He is better served by treatment and rehabilitation and possibly removal from society, which in turn is beneficial to society.

This example describes the essence of what civil law should be, for those who are not handicapped, but are commit violent acts against mankind should also be given the treatment and rehabilitation they deserve in order to live as close to society as they reasonably can.