We are not to hurt anyone for any reason.

[Zecryphon]

You are not allowed to draw such simple conclusions on complex issues. You must not "drop your brain on the ground" to make things easy.

For instance, if your loved one is being gang raped and you have the means at your disposal to "even strike the lethal blow" you would be justified in doing so. Most theologians would go farther and demand that it would, in fact, be your responsibility to do so.

Giver doesn't follow the teachings of men, such as theologians. He's Holy Spirit led, which is interesting when you realize that so much of what he says seems to be at odds with scripture.

 

[Zecryphon]

All you are telling us is that you haven’t learned to take orders. You some how don’t have enough faith that God will take care of you and that his will, will be done.

And all you're telling us is that any loved one of yours can kiss their butt goodbye, if an intruder ever breaks into your home.

 

[Jet_A_Jockey]

All you are telling us is that you haven’t learned to take orders. You some how don’t have enough faith that God will take care of you and that his will, will be done.

I don't have enough faith (or actually trust) in God to provide? Reminds me of a situation I recall seeing when i was young. A homeless man with a sign asking for food is standing on a corner. People are walking by, one stops and says "don't worry, God will take care of you." as he walks past.

I trust in God enough to know that if He gives me the means to provide and defend those in need, that its my responsibility to do so. Just because you are taking a few passages of scripture way out of context, and forming an idea that is contrary to the rest of scripture, does not mean my faith in God is weak. Just another case of the ever-popular "Jesus personally told me" syndrome.

 

[Giver]

I don't have enough faith (or actually trust) in God to provide? Reminds me of a situation I recall seeing when i was young. A homeless man with a sign asking for food is standing on a corner. People are walking by, one stops and says "don't worry, God will take care of you." as he walks past.

I trust in God enough to know that if He gives me the means to provide and defend those in need, that its my responsibility to do so. Just because you are taking a few passages of scripture way out of context, and forming an idea that is contrary to the rest of scripture, does not mean my faith in God is weak. Just another case of the ever-popular "Jesus personally told me" syndrome.

(1 John 3:17) “If a man who was rich enough in this world’s goods saw that one of his brothers was in need, but closed his heart to him, how could the love of God be living in him?”

(1 Corinthians 10:13) “You can trust God not to let you be tried beyond your strength, and with any trial he will give you a way out of it and the strength to bear it.”

Let me share two happenings in my walk with Jesus. Twenty-five years ago I was struggling to provide for a family with four young children. The youngest was about two and the oldest about seven. I lost my Job and we used up all our money. We were not receiving any help from the Government or any church. Family and friends had long sense decided to have nothing to do with us. With nowhere to turn my wife was having trouble keeping it together. I laid my hands on her asking Jesus to touch her, meaning to give her peace. After I finished praying I felt Jesus enter our home. He walked by my wife and her foot jumped in the air. Jesus sat down on our couch and for a half hour I keep asking him questions. He never said a word for that whole half hour. After Jesus left I was very upset and went to my bedroom and proceeded to complain. That is when Jesus spoke to me and said, “I am God” Reminding me of the time his disciples were in the boat with him and were scared they would drown. He was telling me that I had no reason to be scared he was there. By the way I ask my wife later why her foot jumped. She said it felt like someone touched her. She hadn’t felt Jesus’ presence.

Two years ago in December I started having bad stomach cramps and was filling the toilet bowel with blood, every time I went to the bathroom. I put up with this until May. I then asked Jesus if I should go to doctor or not. He told me no. I didn’t know what to expect, but sure was hoping he would heal me. My bleeding and cramps went on for another two weeks, and I thought Jesus was going to let me die. I was thinking that maybe the visions Jesus gave me about my walk with him were wrong. The visions showed me living and doing things that hadn’t as of yet happened. One morning, after two weeks went by I woke up no cramps and no blood. My stomach has been better for the last two years than ever.

I shared this because in order to live his Word we need to trust him.

 

[itsfinished]

What gives anyone the power and authority to decide in any given situation who is expendable and who is not?
Please tell me how loving your enemies and killing your enemies is the same thing. Rather, show me in scripture, because we all know that if it isn't the word of God then it isn't worth the breath it takes to say it.

 

[Giver]

What gives anyone the power and authority to decide in any given situation who is expendable and who is not?
Please tell me how loving your enemies and killing your enemies is the same thing. Rather, show me in scripture, because we all know that if it isn't the word of God then it isn't worth the breath it takes to say it.

(Matthew 5:44) “But I say this to you: love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you;”

(Matthew 5:39) “You have learnt how it was said: ‘Eye for eye and tooth for tooth.’ But I say this to you: offer the wicked man no resistance.”

God makes the decisions. Why he allows people to hurt one another I don’t know. So much of this thread has been hypothetical situation of some one breaking into one’s house with the intention of killing or raping the occupants. What is so sad is more people are raped or killed by their parents, relatives, priest, and pastors. How many of them have been stopped by a gun or sword?

 

[Giver]

Giver doesn't follow the teachings of men, such as theologians. He's Holy Spirit led, which is interesting when you realize that so much of what he says seems to be at odds with scripture.

You make a statement like that and expect people to believe you? What have I written that is at odds with scripture?

 

[Zecryphon]

What gives anyone the power and authority to decide in any given situation who is expendable and who is not?
Please tell me how loving your enemies and killing your enemies is the same thing. Rather, show me in scripture, because we all know that if it isn't the word of God then it isn't worth the breath it takes to say it.

Go back to Jesus' arrest in the Garden of Gethsemane. Here we have played out the perfect home invasion scenario. For that night, the Garden of Gethsemane was home to Jesus and the apostles. We have guards coming to arrest Jesus, uninvited guards who were most likely armed. Peter did what anybody would do in that situation. He produced the sword, that Jesus told him to buy, and cut off the ear of one of the guards. He was defending himself from an advancing threat.

What did Jesus do? Did He chastize Peter? Did He tell him that He shouldn't have a sword or defend himself in such a way? No. He told him that what is happening must happen to fulfill prophecy. He told Peter to put his sword back at his side. He didn't tell him to get rid of it and never pick it up again.

If Jesus were so against people defending themselves against an advancing threat this would have been the perfect time for such a teaching, yet we never see any such teaching taking place. Also, notice that Peter did not kill the advancing threat, although he certainly had the means to. People who are trained with firearms and know how to properly defend their home, also know how to neutralize a threat without killing it. You guys assume that because we have guns and will shoot people who are in our homes we are hellbent on killing them. That is not true.

 

[Zecryphon]

You make a statement like that and expect people to believe you? What have I written that is at odds with scripture?

I don't automatically expect people to believe me just because I say something. I'm not you. I expect people to read the thread and all the evidence that has been provided and decide for themselves. It has been proven that you are taking scripture way out of context to apply it to your personal bias against owning and using weapons to protect and defend not only your life but the lives of innocent people around you.

 

[Zecryphon]

(Matthew 5:44) “But I say this to you: love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you;”

(Matthew 5:39) “You have learnt how it was said: ‘Eye for eye and tooth for tooth.’ But I say this to you: offer the wicked man no resistance.”

God makes the decisions. Why he allows people to hurt one another I don’t know. So much of this thread has been hypothetical situation of some one breaking into one’s house with the intention of killing or raping the occupants. What is so sad is more people are raped or killed by their parents, relatives, priest, and pastors. How many of them have been stopped by a gun or sword?

"God makes the decisions. Why he allows people to hurt one another I don’t know."

But it's been your contention that God will never allow a believer to be put in such a situation. So which is it? Can you be consistent at all in what you believe?

"So much of this thread has been hypothetical situation of some one breaking into one’s house with the intention of killing or raping the occupants. What is so sad is more people are raped or killed by their parents, relatives, priest, and pastors."

How many people were murdered by their priests and pastors in the last oh 10 years? Some statistics or support for your claim would be nice. Also if more people have been raped and killed by family, pastors and priests, then the situations we're talking about aren't hypothetical are they?

"How many of them have been stopped by a gun or sword?"

I consider it a big "no-no" to bring any kind of a weapon to church.

 

[Giver]

I don't automatically expect people to believe me just because I say something. I'm not you. I expect people to read the thread and all the evidence that has been provided and decide for themselves. It has been proven that you are taking scripture way out of context to apply it to your personal bias against owning and using weapons to protect and defend not only your life but the lives of innocent people around you.

Come on where has it been proven? You keep on making unfounded statements and fail to back them up.

 

[Zecryphon]

Come on where has it been proven? You keep on making unfounded statements and fail to back them up.

Jet_A_Jockey has proven that you are using verses regarding vengeance to support your personal bias. Anyone who has read this thread has seen this. I have no need to present what has already been presented just cuz your either too blind to recognize it when you see it or have a faulty memory. I'm not here to compensate for your shortcomings. But for the others who are reading this thread you were proven wrong in post # 625 by Jet_A_Jockey. You continually use Matthew 5:38 out of context to support your pacifism. Jesus was not talking about defending yourself there, He was talking about taking vengeance upon people. Two completely different issues, yet you can't see that. That would be part of the blindness I was talking about earlier. Also you were refuted in post # 628 by GeneZ and in a lot of other posts in this thread. You're done dude. Garden of Gethsemane story puts the final nail in your coffin. The perfect home invasion scenario and Jesus does not react like He should if what you say about Him is true.

 

[Giver]

Go back to Jesus' arrest in the Garden of Gethsemane. Here we have played out the perfect home invasion scenario. For that night, the Garden of Gethsemane was home to Jesus and the apostles. We have guards coming to arrest Jesus, uninvited guards who were most likely armed. Peter did what anybody would do in that situation. He produced the sword, that Jesus told him to buy, and cut off the ear of one of the guards. He was defending himself from an advancing threat.

What did Jesus do? Did He chastize Peter? Did He tell him that He shouldn't have a sword or defend himself in such a way? No. He told him that what is happening must happen to fulfill prophecy. He told Peter to put his sword back at his side. He didn't tell him to get rid of it and never pick it up again.
(Matthew 26:52) “Put your sword back, for all who draw the sword will die by the sword.”

If Jesus were so against people defending themselves against an advancing threat this would have been the perfect time for such a teaching, yet we never see any such teaching taking place.
(Matthew 5:44) “But I say this to you: love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you;”

(Matthew 5:39) “You have learnt how it was said: ‘Eye for eye and tooth for tooth.’ But I say this to you: offer the wicked man no resistance.”
Also, notice that Peter did not kill the advancing threat, although he certainly had the means to. People who are trained with firearms and know how to properly defend their home, also know how to neutralize a threat without killing it. You guys assume that because we have guns and will shoot people who are in our homes we are hellbent on killing them. That is not true.

(Luke 6:27-29) “But I say this to you who are listening: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who treat you badly. To the man who slaps you on one cheek, present the other cheek too; to the man who takes you cloak from you, do not refuse your tunic.”

(Luke 6:30-35) “Give to everyone who asks you, and do not ask for your property back from the man who robs you. Treat others, as you would like them to treat you. If you love those who love you, what thanks can you expect? Even sinners love those who love them. And if you do good to those who do good to you, what thanks can you expect? For even sinners do that much. And if you lend to those from whom you hope to receive what thanks can you expect? Even sinners lend to sinners to get back the same amount. Instead, love your enemies and do good, and lend without any hope of return. You will have a great reward, and you will be sons of the Most High, for he himself is kind to the ungrateful and the wicked.

 

[Giver]

But it's been your contention that God will never allow a believer to be put in such a situation. So which is it? Can you be consistent at all in what you believe?
(1 Corinthians 10:13) “You can trust God not to let you be tried beyond your strength, and with any trial he will give you a way out of it and the strength to bear it.”



How many people were murdered by their priests and pastors in the last oh 10 years? Some statistics or support for your claim would be nice. Also if more people have been raped and killed by family, pastors and priests, then the situations we're talking about aren't hypothetical are they?



I consider it a big "no-no" to bring any kind of a weapon to church.

Why!

 

[Zecryphon]

Why!

Why do I need it? Is a pastor or priest or relative going to do me harm as you claimed is so prevalent in another post of yours? Hey! Where are your statistics to back up your claim about pastors and priests being rapists and murderers? I believe I asked for those.

 

[Zecryphon]

(Luke 6:27-29) “But I say this to you who are listening: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who treat you badly. To the man who slaps you on one cheek, present the other cheek too; to the man who takes you cloak from you, do not refuse your tunic.”

(Luke 6:30-35) “Give to everyone who asks you, and do not ask for your property back from the man who robs you. Treat others, as you would like them to treat you. If you love those who love you, what thanks can you expect? Even sinners love those who love them. And if you do good to those who do good to you, what thanks can you expect? For even sinners do that much. And if you lend to those from whom you hope to receive what thanks can you expect? Even sinners lend to sinners to get back the same amount. Instead, love your enemies and do good, and lend without any hope of return. You will have a great reward, and you will be sons of the Most High, for he himself is kind to the ungrateful and the wicked.

I'm not asking for my property back from the man who robs me. See you assume that the guy who's robbing me is actually going to get away with my property. The only property of mine he's likely to get away with are some .40 caliber slugs he didn't have in him, when he entered my house.

 

[fated]

I believe I've met you before on this topic giver. Let me try another direction on this:

Be glad you have ROMAN CATHOLICS as foundational blocks in the civilization you live in that believe in defending your hide from those who would kill, rape, and oppress you.

Is it good to fight for the oppressed (like Jesus Christ our Lord) or die for the forsaken (like Jesus Christ our Savior)?

 

[Giver]

I believe I've met you before on this topic giver. Let me try another direction on this:

Be glad you have ROMAN CATHOLICS as foundational blocks in the civilization you live in that believe in defending your hide from those who would kill, rape, and oppress you.

Is it good to fight for the oppressed (like Jesus Christ our Lord) or die for the forsaken (like Jesus Christ our Savior)?

What are you trying to tell me? Are you saying that Roman Catholics ignore the Word of God? Then I agree with you. Until Emperor Constantine the Christian Church agreed with me.

 

[itsfinished]

"For though we live in the world, we do not wage war as the world does. The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds. We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ." 2Co.10:3-5

 

[Zecryphon]

What are you trying to tell me? Are you saying that Roman Catholics ignore the Word of God? Then I agree with you. Until Emperor Constantine the Christian Church agreed with me.

Oh you know that the Christian church agreed with you how? I don't see any substantiation for that claim in this post of yours. Has the early Christian church been sitting on your couch teaching you too? Since you're such a stickler for substantiating statements made, better get to it. I'd love to see substantiation for your claim. Ya know something other than the verses you keep taking out of context, that have become your mantra that you chant over and over when you can't answer a question or debate a point. Also, I'm still waiting for the statistics that prove your assertion about priests and pastors being the real threat to our communities.