Poll - Once Saved Always Saved

[thecherb]

Hmm, that makes good sense. Making believers look like unbelievers has got to be one of his best weapons.

 

[CShephard53]

The doctrine of Eternal Security which postulates Once Saved Always Saved is only held by a very small minority of Reformed Christians, even on this forum where evangelicals are a much larger percentage then in the total population, because it is simply not supported by Scripture.

I am not reformed, thank you very much. And I would still like to see someone show how it isn't in Scripture. Take John 10:28-30 for instance?

 

[MikeMcK]

Personally, it's hard to me to say which of those I believe, but lately I tend to think that OSAS is not true. I just can't get over the fact that after we are "saved" or whatever you want to call it, we still sin. In other words, we are still tempted (and still fall to it). In even more other words, it means that our enemy is still trying to make us fall. If that doctrine of OSAS is indeed true, why wouldn't the enemy focus his attention solely elsewhere (on non-Christians), on where his purpose may still be fulfilled?

We don't sin because the Devil temps us. We sin because we're sinners.

 

[Rick Otto]

Adam & Eve showed no inclination to sin until tempted.
I know we isn't Adam & Eve, but you almost sounded like 'de debil' has no part in it.

 

[PraiseToHim]

I am not reformed, thank you very much. And I would still like to see someone show how it isn't in Scripture.

Maybe you can help me answer the challenge I received. I was asked to answer these questions.

Ezekiel 18:21-22, 24
“If a wicked man turns away from all the sins he has committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, he will surely live; he will not die. None of the offenses he has committed will be remembered against him.”

“But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die.”

Question:
If a wicked man turns away from his sins and is justified, and then turns back to his sins, will he still live?

A. Yes
B. No
C. I’m going to pretend I didn’t see those verses


1 Corinthians 11:32
“When we are judged by the Lord, we are being disciplined so that we will not be condemned with the world.”

Question:
Is it possible for a Christian to be condemned with the world?

A. Yes
B. No
C. I’m going to pretend I didn’t see that verse

Extra credit:
According to the Bible, why does God discipline us?
(HINT: “To prevent us from being ___________ with the world”)


2 Timothy 2:12
“If we disown him, he will also disown us.”

Question:
If a Christian repudiates Christ, will he himself be repudiated?

A. Yes
B. No
C. I’m going to pretend I didn’t see that verse


Revelation 22:14, 19
“Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city . . . If anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.”

Question:
If a Christian takes words away from the book of revelation, will he lose his share in the tree of life and to be excluded from the holy city?

A. Yes
B. No
C. I’m going to pretend I didn’t see that verse


1 Timothy 3:6
“[A potential bishop must not be] a new convert, lest he become conceited and fall into the condemnation incurred by the devil.”

Question:
Is it possible for a Christian to fall into the condemnation incurred by the devil?

A. Yes
B. No
C. I’m going to pretend I didn’t see that verse


2 Peter 2:20-21
“For if after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment delivered to them.”

Bonus Essay Question:
If a Christian cannot lose his salvation, even if he becomes entangled in the pollutions of the world, how can such entanglement be described as worse than his first (unsaved) condition? How can it be said of a saved man, “It would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness”?


Galatians 5:19-20
“The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.”

Question:
If a Christian lives in the manner described by Paul, will he inherit the kingdom of God?

A. Yes
B. No
C. I’m going to pretend I didn’t see that verse


Romans 11:22
“Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God; sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.”

Question:
If a Christian does not continue in God’s kindness, will he be cut off?

A. Yes
B. No
C. I’m going to pretend I didn’t see that verse


1 Corinthians 15:2
“By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise you have believed in vain.”

Question:
If a Christian does not hold firmly to the gospel and falls away, will it be said of him that he believed for nothing?

A. Yes
B. No
C. I’m going to pretend I didn’t see that verse


Hebrews 4:1, 11
“Therefore, since the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us be careful that none of you be found to have fallen short of it . . . Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following their example of disobedience.”

Question:
If a Christian follows the Israelites example of disobedience, will he enter God’s rest?

A. Yes
B. No
C. I’m going to pretend I didn’t see that verse

 

[CShephard53]

Maybe you can help me answer the challenge I received. I was asked to answer these questions.

OOH, I love that stuff! So long as it actually makes me open E-Sword instead of just going by things in the text stated...

Ezekiel 18:21-22, 24
“If a wicked man turns away from all the sins he has committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, he will surely live; he will not die. None of the offenses he has committed will be remembered against him.”

“But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die.”

Question:
If a wicked man turns away from his sins and is justified, and then turns back to his sins, will he still live?

A. Yes
B. No
C. I’m going to pretend I didn’t see those verses

Counter-question: does righteousness- as it is used in that passage- necessitate repentance, or actions? Repentance deals with the mind, not the surface action. If the answer is repentance (which it isn't, you can see that in the Hebrew), then the verse actually contradicts the doctrine.

1 Corinthians 11:32
“When we are judged by the Lord, we are being disciplined so that we will not be condemned with the world.”

Question:
Is it possible for a Christian to be condemned with the world?

A. Yes
B. No
C. I’m going to pretend I didn’t see that verse

By definition, no. If one is a Christian, they are a Christ follower, or follower of Jesus. One cannot do that and be worldly at the same time, not enough to warrant being damned. You know, the difference between missing the mark, intentional sin, and habitual/continual sin?

Extra credit:
According to the Bible, why does God discipline us?
(HINT: “To prevent us from being ___________ with the world”)

A better hint might be 'because He _____ us'.
That's a verse, by the way. God disciplines those He loves...

2 Timothy 2:12
“If we disown him, he will also disown us.”

Question:
If a Christian repudiates Christ, will he himself be repudiated?

A. Yes
B. No
C. I’m going to pretend I didn’t see that verse

By definition, a Christian cannot repudiate Christ.

Revelation 22:14, 19
“Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city . . . If anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.”

Question:
If a Christian takes words away from the book of revelation, will he lose his share in the tree of life and to be excluded from the holy city?

A. Yes
B. No
C. I’m going to pretend I didn’t see that verse

Goodness, I've still only looked at E-Sword once. Again, by definition, a Christian cannot do that.

1 Timothy 3:6
“[A potential bishop must not be] a new convert, lest he become conceited and fall into the condemnation incurred by the devil.”

Question:
Is it possible for a Christian to fall into the condemnation incurred by the devil?

A. Yes
B. No
C. I’m going to pretend I didn’t see that verse

By definition, no.

2 Peter 2:20-21
“For if after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment delivered to them.”

Bonus Essay Question:
If a Christian cannot lose his salvation, even if he becomes entangled in the pollutions of the world, how can such entanglement be described as worse than his first (unsaved) condition? How can it be said of a saved man, “It would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness”?

Jesus Himself has already addressed that. He states that if you clean house but do not refurnish and replace the old, you might as well have just piled on more rubbish, because that will be the final condition. If you clean house but don't refurnish, you are not a Christian- we are told to abide, be transformed, repent, and other various forms of those by Christ and throughout the NT. Basic answer is this- salvation requires three things: justification, sanctification, and glorification. Thusly, it is accurate to say that I am saved, I am being saved, and I will be saved.

Galatians 5:19-20
“The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.”

Question:
If a Christian lives in the manner described by Paul, will he inherit the kingdom of God?

A. Yes
B. No
C. I’m going to pretend I didn’t see that verse

By definition if a person lives in those things they are not a Christian...

Romans 11:22
“Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God; sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.”

Question:
If a Christian does not continue in God’s kindness, will he be cut off?

A. Yes
B. No
C. I’m going to pretend I didn’t see that verse

If they were a Christian, they would continue. Again, by definition they cannot discontinue because they are a Christian.

1 Corinthians 15:2
“By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise you have believed in vain.”

Question:
If a Christian does not hold firmly to the gospel and falls away, will it be said of him that he believed for nothing?

A. Yes
B. No
C. I’m going to pretend I didn’t see that verse

I think you know what I'm going to say before I say it. Can't call that person a Christian. Can't even say that they believed, as believing necessitates living it out, not just lip service.

Hebrews 4:1, 11
“Therefore, since the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us be careful that none of you be found to have fallen short of it . . . Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following their example of disobedience.”

Question:
If a Christian follows the Israelites example of disobedience, will he enter God’s rest?

A. Yes
B. No
C. I’m going to pretend I didn’t see that verse

Can't be living in disobedience and be called a Christian, sorry.

Next time you do something like this, you might want to know your terms better. Or define them.

 

[ebia]

Personally, it's hard to me to say which of those I believe, but lately I tend to think that OSAS is not true. I just can't get over the fact that after we are "saved" or whatever you want to call it, we still sin. In other words, we are still tempted (and still fall to it). In even more other words, it means that our enemy is still trying to make us fall. If that doctrine of OSAS is indeed true, why wouldn't the enemy focus his attention solely elsewhere (on non-Christians), on where his purpose may still be fulfilled?

Because what we do between "being saved" and our death/resurrection matters. That's where a lot of protestant/evangelical teaching looses the plot. "Being saved" is the start, not the end; we need to play our part in being restored, and in bringing the rest of creation to redemption and restoration. It's not about "my personal salvation" but about the restoration of all creation of which what happens to each individual is but a part and a step towards.

 

[Rick Otto]

Absolutely, two great posts.
Jaws & Eb,...

 

[IgnatiusOfAntioch]

Maybe you can help me answer the challenge I received. I was asked to answer these questions.

Ezekiel 18:21-22, 24
“If a wicked man turns away from all the sins he has committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, he will surely live; he will not die. None of the offenses he has committed will be remembered against him.”

“But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die.”

Question:
If a wicked man turns away from his sins and is justified, and then turns back to his sins, will he still live?

A. Yes
B. No
C. I’m going to pretend I didn’t see those verses


1 Corinthians 11:32
“When we are judged by the Lord, we are being disciplined so that we will not be condemned with the world.”

Question:
Is it possible for a Christian to be condemned with the world?

A. Yes
B. No
C. I’m going to pretend I didn’t see that verse

Extra credit:
According to the Bible, why does God discipline us?
(HINT: “To prevent us from being ___________ with the world&#8221


2 Timothy 2:12
“If we disown him, he will also disown us.”

Question:
If a Christian repudiates Christ, will he himself be repudiated?

A. Yes
B. No
C. I’m going to pretend I didn’t see that verse


Revelation 22:14, 19
“Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city . . . If anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.”

Question:
If a Christian takes words away from the book of revelation, will he lose his share in the tree of life and to be excluded from the holy city?

A. Yes
B. No
C. I’m going to pretend I didn’t see that verse


1 Timothy 3:6
“[A potential bishop must not be] a new convert, lest he become conceited and fall into the condemnation incurred by the devil.”

Question:
Is it possible for a Christian to fall into the condemnation incurred by the devil?

A. Yes
B. No
C. I’m going to pretend I didn’t see that verse


2 Peter 2:20-21
“For if after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment delivered to them.”

Bonus Essay Question:
If a Christian cannot lose his salvation, even if he becomes entangled in the pollutions of the world, how can such entanglement be described as worse than his first (unsaved) condition? How can it be said of a saved man, “It would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness”?


Galatians 5:19-20
“The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.”

Question:
If a Christian lives in the manner described by Paul, will he inherit the kingdom of God?

A. Yes
B. No
C. I’m going to pretend I didn’t see that verse


Romans 11:22
“Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God; sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.”

Question:
If a Christian does not continue in God’s kindness, will he be cut off?

A. Yes
B. No
C. I’m going to pretend I didn’t see that verse


1 Corinthians 15:2
“By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise you have believed in vain.”

Question:
If a Christian does not hold firmly to the gospel and falls away, will it be said of him that he believed for nothing?

A. Yes
B. No
C. I’m going to pretend I didn’t see that verse


Hebrews 4:1, 11
“Therefore, since the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us be careful that none of you be found to have fallen short of it . . . Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following their example of disobedience.”

Question:
If a Christian follows the Israelites example of disobedience, will he enter God’s rest?

A. Yes
B. No
C. I’m going to pretend I didn’t see that verse

As you will see, they can't answer the questions directly using Scripture, so they will dance around them, try to dodge the issue by asking you questions, try to change the subject or say you aren't a Christian. Well, let me tell you something my friend, if you have believed with your heart and confessed with your mouth that Jesus Christ is Lord and asked Him to be your personal Saviour, then you certainly are a Christian and don't let anyone try to try to take that away from you.

Does their evasiveness in addressing these issues tell you anything? The Scripture cited in these questions states is clear. Don't fall for these false, man made doctrines which were not even invented until the 19th century. What does the bible say is th Pillar and Foundation of Truth? Think about it my friend, and pray about it as well. Feel free to PM me if you would like to learn more.

May the grace and peace of Our Lord Jesus Christ descend upon you and remain with you forever.

Your servant in Christ.

 

[CShephard53]

As you will see, they can't answer the questions directly using Scripture, so they will dance around them, try to dodge the issue by asking you questions, try to change the subject or say you aren't a Christian. Well, let me tell you something my friend, if you have believed with your heart and confessed with your mouth that Jesus Christ is Lord and asked Him to be your personal Saviour, then you certainly are a Christian and don't let anyone try to try to take that away from you.

That is not what the Bible says, sorry.
G5546
Χριστιανός
Christianos
Thayer Definition:
1) Christian, a follower of Christ
Part of Speech: noun proper masculine

That does not mean one can ignore commands and admonishments of Christ Himself. Following Christ means you make sacrifices, you give it your all. That means you face your fears, face your inadequacies, and press on. We cannot use grace as a means to keep on sinning.

Does their evasiveness in addressing these issues tell you anything? The Scripture cited in these questions states is clear. Don't fall for these false, man made doctrines which were not even invented until the 19th century. What does the bible say is th Pillar and Foundation of Truth? Think about it my friend, and pray about it as well. Feel free to PM me if you would like to learn more.

May the grace and peace of Our Lord Jesus Christ descend upon you and remain with you forever.

Your servant in Christ.

Responses like this one both tick me off and make me sad at the same time. It's like the person who stuffs their fingers in their ears and refuses to listen. It's angering because they're doing it on purpose, and saddening because they don't know what they're missing.

 

[tblaine74]

Thayer Definition:
1) Christian, a follower of Christ

In light of this definition I would have to say that: “Next time you do something like this, you might want to know your terms better. Or define them.” What does it mean to follow Christ? “Following Christ means you make sacrifices, you give it your all.” This is a rather inadequate definition for our purposes here. This definition is insufficient to support your claims that the term Christian, “by definition”, answers the questions posted by PraiseToHim. This is apparent if you look at any of your claims in argumentative form. For example:

A Christian is “a follower of Christ”, and “Following Christ means you make sacrifices, you give it your all”, therefore “a Christian cannot repudiate Christ”.

This is a very poor argument. Are you insinuating that “a follower of Christ” is only present in the case where the “following” excludes failure? If so, It appears that the definition for “follower of Christ” that you are insinuating, in order to answer certain questions “by definition”, would be sufficient, at the same time, to demonstrate that no one is, in fact, a Christian.

 

[Rick Otto]

quote=tblaine74;What does it mean to follow Christ?

Overwrought treatment won't dilute his truth.

“Following Christ means you make sacrifices, you give it your all.” This is a rather inadequate definition for our purposes here.

No it ain't.
Repudiation isn't following, it's going against.

This definition is insufficient to support your claims that the term Christian, “by definition”, answers the questions posted by PraiseToHim.

No it isn't. It is sufficient to repudiate your claims.

Are you insinuating that “a follower of Christ” is only present in the case where the “following” excludes failure?

Of course he isn't. You are trying to force his meaning into your logical extreme.

If so, It appears that the definition for “follower of Christ” that you are insinuating, in order to answer certain questions “by definition”, would be sufficient, at the same time, to demonstrate that no one is, in fact, a Christian.

Obviously we disagree on some definitions.
Your objections seem oblivious to that fact.

 

[CShephard53]

In light of this definition I would have to say that: “Next time you do something like this, you might want to know your terms better. Or define them.” What does it mean to follow Christ? “Following Christ means you make sacrifices, you give it your all.” This is a rather inadequate definition for our purposes here. This definition is insufficient to support your claims that the term Christian, “by definition”, answers the questions posted by PraiseToHim.

Do I really need to spell out each and ever thing Christ did, every principle He taught, every word I string together? Doing so would be ridiculously time consuming, and stupid.

This is apparent if you look at any of your claims in argumentative form. For example:

Sure. Let me ask you something- do you have any argument to give me? Or are you just going to continue making assumptions? Because if you're going to continue with the assumptions and fallacies I have no interest in continuing this.

A Christian is “a follower of Christ”, and “Following Christ means you make sacrifices, you give it your all”, therefore “a Christian cannot repudiate Christ”. This is a very poor argument.

That is not what I said or argued. Straw man fallacy. I stated many more things than that in what it means to follow Christ...

Are you insinuating that “a follower of Christ” is only present in the case where the “following” excludes failure? If so, It appears that the definition for “follower of Christ” that you are insinuating, in order to answer certain questions “by definition”, would be sufficient, at the same time, to demonstrate that no one is, in fact, a Christian.

I never said a Christian has to be perfect. But in order to follow Christ you cannot live in sin. You cannot deny Him. That is not remotely close to following Him.

 

[tblaine74]

No it isn't. It is sufficient to repudiate your claims.

What claims?

Of course he isn't. You are trying to force his meaning into your logical extreme.

I am not forcing anything. I am asking a question. I am only showing the logical consequence of the meaning necessary to validate his argument. How can his argument be validated otherwise?

 

[tblaine74]

Sure. Let me ask you something- do you have any argument to give me?

Thayer Definition:
1) Christian, a follower of Christ

Is this not the definition you gave for a Christian? Did you not suggest that several of the answers to PraiseToHim’s questions followed “By definition” from a Christian? My only argument is that yours is a bad argument. If you think not, then feel free to demonstrate otherwise. How do the answers you have given follow “By definition” from a Christian? If you can’t demonstrate it, then why would you expect anyone to accept it?

 

[Rick Otto]

What claims?
Excuse me, "claim" (singular) that "Following Christ means you make sacrifices, you give it your all.” is an inadequate definition for "our purposes here".

I am not forcing anything. I am asking a question.

That is how you applied the pressure. That was the attempt to force.

I am only showing the logical consequence of the meaning necessary to validate his argument.

It is an extreme of logic to think that Jaws might've meant a "follower of Christ” is only present in the case where the “following” excludes failure. Jaws is obviously not a purist, legalist, or perfectionist. It is not reasonable to think that he would define a follower of Christ that would exclude himself, or all of professing Christianity.

How can his argument be validated otherwise?

By common sense applied with reasonableness.

 

[tblaine74]

How can his argument be validated otherwise?

By common sense applied with reasonableness.

Assuming you possess these, you should have no trouble providing a demonstration. Or, was your statement just a cop out?

 

[CShephard53]

What claims?



I am not forcing anything. I am asking a question. I am only showing the logical consequence of the meaning necessary to validate his argument. How can his argument be validated otherwise?

No, what you masqueraded as my argument.

 

[CShephard53]

Thayer Definition:
1) Christian, a follower of Christ

Is this not the definition you gave for a Christian? Did you not suggest that several of the answers to PraiseToHim’s questions followed “By definition” from a Christian? My only argument is that yours is a bad argument. If you think not, then feel free to demonstrate otherwise. How do the answers you have given follow “By definition” from a Christian? If you can’t demonstrate it, then why would you expect anyone to accept it?

I've already demonstrated it. Why should I explain the obvious?

 

[Rick Otto]

Assuming you possess these, you should have no trouble providing a demonstration. Or, was your statement just a cop out?

The post I made was the demonstration.
Your new question continuing in senseless contention is the cop out from common sense & reasonableness.

Gotta admire your love of rhetoric tho, even if it is unrequited.