Outer Calling And Inner Calling.......

[Thekla]

well at least your old chum wesley didn't need your approval , are there any other Church fathers who agree ? i don't know , and i didn't think everything had to pass through them . methinks you just like to dip your spoon.....

which "church fathers" are you referring to (I'm not clear on this, when reading your post)

 

[cygnusx1]

which "church fathers" are you referring to (I'm not clear on this, when reading your post)

any will do ........ for what? just go back over the thread.

 

[Thekla]

any will do ........ for what? just go back over the thread.

this was in reference to a response made in response to your statement on "politicization" as the reason for east/west differences in understanding. This is why - my head spinning sorry- I wasn't sure if you were meaning western, eastern or all "church fathers".

 

[cygnusx1]

this was in reference to a response made in response to your statement on "politicization" as the reason for east/west differences in understanding. This is why - my head spinning sorry- I wasn't sure if you were meaning western, eastern or all "church fathers".

why should it make a difference?

do all Church fathers agree , or is there simply a consenus ?

do some church fathers teach errors , like universalism ?

if so no Church father is stronger than the weakest link.

anyway , i am well aware how orthodox members reason.

 

[cygnusx1]

Hi NBF, why not google it. "Try Father of the Inquistion." Many scholars all make the same point, read and enjoy them. Several names have been posted already.

Folks, the inner call is a fiction, and Calvinism is a relic of the dark ages, because it presents the theology of compulsion. Augustine provided the underpinnings for using governmental power to coerse folks, and years later, viola, the inquistion.

The invention of the inner call is yet another claim that God uses compulsion to bring about faith. See the link??

still awaiting proof from the "many scholars" ........ should it take long? if you can't answer Augustines arguement assisinate his character hey /

For further study on this crucial topic here are more Scriptural texts which show beyond reasonable doubt that grace is irresistible to those whom the Holy Spirit determines to save:
(John 6:37, 39, 44, 63-65; John 3:8; Matt 11:27; 1 Corinthians 1:9; Paul's conversion in Acts 9; Rom 9:11-24; 1 Cor. 1:9-26; Gal. 1:6-15; 1 Thess. 1:5, 6; 1 Thess. 2:12; 5:24; 2 Thess. 2:14; Eph. 1:18; 4:1-4, 5; 2 Tim. 1:9; Heb. 3:1; 1 Pet. 2:9; 5:10; 2 Pet. 1:3-10).

 

[cygnusx1]

That really wouldn`t be necessary as the fathers that preceded and followed Augustine in the West were not in accord with his exaggerations on grace. Is rather lonely I know having only one patron saint, but just squeeze it for all it`s worth....

I am off to bed ,

just before i go ,

is it rather lonely being in my position ?


i will let C H Spurgeon answer ;



[FONT=verdana,arial,helvetica]It is no novelty, then, that I am preaching; no new doctrine. I love to proclaim these strong old doctrines that are called by nickname Calvinism, but which are surely and verily the revealed truth of God as it is in Christ Jesus. By this truth I make a pilgrimage to the past. and as I go, I see father after father, confessor after confessor, martyr after martyr, standing up to shake hands with me. Were I a Pelagian, or a believer in free-will, I should have to walk for centuries all alone. Here and there a heretic, of no very honorable character might rise up and call me brother. But taking these things to be the standard of my faith, I see the land of the ancients peopled with my brethren. I behold multitudes who confess the same as I do, and acknowledge that this is the religion of God's own church [emphases mine].3


night !
[/FONT]

 

[nobdysfool]

still awaiting proof from the "many scholars" ........ should it take long? if you can't answer Augustines arguement assisinate his character hey /

For further study on this crucial topic here are more Scriptural texts which show beyond reasonable doubt that grace is irresistible to those whom the Holy Spirit determines to save:
(John 6:37, 39, 44, 63-65; John 3:8; Matt 11:27; 1 Corinthians 1:9; Paul's conversion in Acts 9; Rom 9:11-24; 1 Cor. 1:9-26; Gal. 1:6-15; 1 Thess. 1:5, 6; 1 Thess. 2:12; 5:24; 2 Thess. 2:14; Eph. 1:18; 4:1-4, 5; 2 Tim. 1:9; Heb. 3:1; 1 Pet. 2:9; 5:10; 2 Pet. 1:3-10).

Well, I googled the phrase that was provided, and nothing like what was being claimed was present. "Many Scholars" apparently means something other than what we think it means, taking English words in their normal everyday meanings. Last time that was claimed, it turned out to be one 'scholar" whose writings, in context, did not support what was claimed. This caused a "crisis in conscience" that resulted in a several day absence from this forum of the poster who had made the claim.

Let's see...one is one, a couple is two, several is usually understood as 3 or more, up to maybe 5 or 6, and "many" would be even more than that....Judging by what I saw in the Google results, "many" would not be the term I would use....Perhaps he means that since there are "many" entries in the Google results, that justifies the claim, but the results I opened did not say what was claimed.

Anyway, we're still waiting for the names of these many scholars who claim that Augustine was responsible for the Dark Ages, and links to their writings wherein they make this claim. if many scholars agree, finding and citing their words should not be difficult.

Otherwise, we will have to see it as what I believe it is: smoke and mirrors.

 

[Thekla]

anyway , i am well aware how orthodox members reason.

ah, well then you can please describe me to myself

but seriously, how is it that "Orthodox members reason" ?

 

[Oye11]

I am off to bed ,

just before i go ,

is it rather lonely being in my position ?


i will let C H Spurgeon answer ;



[FONT=verdana,arial,helvetica]It is no novelty, then, that I am preaching; no new doctrine. I love to proclaim these strong old doctrines that are called by nickname Calvinism, but which are surely and verily the revealed truth of God as it is in Christ Jesus. By this truth I make a pilgrimage to the past. and as I go, I see father after father, confessor after confessor, martyr after martyr, standing up to shake hands with me. Were I a Pelagian, or a believer in free-will, I should have to walk for centuries all alone. Here and there a heretic, of no very honorable character might rise up and call me brother. But taking these things to be the standard of my faith, I see the land of the ancients peopled with my brethren. I behold multitudes who confess the same as I do, and acknowledge that this is the religion of God's own church [emphases mine].3


[FONT=verdana,arial,helvetica]night ! [/FONT]
[/FONT]

The Pelagian or Augustinain choice represents a false dilema and straw man. The fathers who preceded and followed the controversy tended to be neither in matters of grace.

But while Brother Chuck has the floor, let`s see what he thought of one of your key beliefs. Night amigo.

"If I am to preach the faith in Christ to a man who is regenerated, then the man, being regenerated, is saved already, and it is an unnecessary and ridiculous thing for me to preach Christ to him, and bid him to believe in order to be saved when he is saved already, being regenerate. Am I only to preach faith to those who have it? Absurd, indeed! Is not this waiting till the man is cured and then bringing him the medicine? This is preaching Christ to the righteous and not to sinners." [Sermon entitled The Warrant of Faith].

 

[nill]

The Pelagian or Augustinain choice represents a false dilema and straw man. The fathers who preceded and followed the controversy tended to be neither in matters of grace.

But while Brother Chuck has the floor, let`s see what he thought of one of your key beliefs. Night amigo.

"If I am to preach the faith in Christ to a man who is regenerated, then the man, being regenerated, is saved already, and it is an unnecessary and ridiculous thing for me to preach Christ to him, and bid him to believe in order to be saved when he is saved already, being regenerate. Am I only to preach faith to those who have it? Absurd, indeed! Is not this waiting till the man is cured and then bringing him the medicine? This is preaching Christ to the righteous and not to sinners." [Sermon entitled The Warrant of Faith].

Do those who have heard the good news at one time no longer need to hear the good news? I thought this is what church is for.

 

[Van]

Lets see, I googled "Augustine, Father of the Inquisition" and got a listing for about 108000 entries. But according to the Calvinists, they do not include many scholars. Only one. Folks the inner call is a fiction, just as the premise that many scholars do not hold the view that Augustine created the theological underpinnings for the dark ages by justifying the use of governmental force to compel adherance to bad religion.

Let me repeat, over 100,000 hits. Only one scholar. LOL

 

[Van]

The following verses demonstrate that the inner call is a fiction. John 6:37, 39, 44, 63-65; John 3:8; Matt 11:27; 1 Corinthians 1:9; Paul's conversion in Acts 9; Rom 9:11-24; 1 Cor. 1:9-26; Gal. 1:6-15; 1 Thess. 1:5, 6; 1 Thess. 2:12; 5:24; 2 Thess. 2:14; Eph. 1:18; 4:1-4, 5; 2 Tim. 1:9; Heb. 3:1; 1 Pet. 2:9; 5:10; 2 Pet. 1:3-10).

 

[nobdysfool]

Lets see, I googled "Augustine, Father of the Inquisition" and got a listing for about 108000 entries. But according to the Calvinists, they do not include many scholars. Only one. Folks the inner call is a fiction, just as the premise that many scholars do not hold the view that Augustine created the theological underpinnings for the dark ages by justifying the use of governmental force to compel adherance to bad religion.

Let me repeat, over 100,000 hits. Only one scholar. LOL

That's not what you said before. You said Google "father of the inquisition". So you're changing your story as we speak. Typical.

Names Van. Not generic "many". Names, and links to where they said this. Stop jerking people's chains and provide the proof.

 

[cygnusx1]

Lets see, I googled "Augustine, Father of the Inquisition" and got a listing for about 108000 entries. But according to the Calvinists, they do not include many scholars. Only one. Folks the inner call is a fiction, just as the premise that many scholars do not hold the view that Augustine created the theological underpinnings for the dark ages by justifying the use of governmental force to compel adherance to bad religion.

Let me repeat, over 100,000 hits. Only one scholar. LOL

let's see !!

apart from you bringing no names of those many scholars , nor quotes , nor links , nor anything to show you have done any real research on Augustine ....googling just a phrase is real study to you / ok , google "van is a fool" and see how many hits ya see ( about 2,930,000 hits) !!..... should we take that as evidence van


what other reasons should we have for trusting your anti-calvinist intrenched position , why shoulkd anyone on these boards accept your word on callings when none here believes you on a dozen doctrines ?

let me repeat 2,930,000 hits , only one scholar LOL.

 

[cygnusx1]

The following verses demonstrate that the inner call is a fiction. John 6:37, 39, 44, 63-65; John 3:8; Matt 11:27; 1 Corinthians 1:9; Paul's conversion in Acts 9; Rom 9:11-24; 1 Cor. 1:9-26; Gal. 1:6-15; 1 Thess. 1:5, 6; 1 Thess. 2:12; 5:24; 2 Thess. 2:14; Eph. 1:18; 4:1-4, 5; 2 Tim. 1:9; Heb. 3:1; 1 Pet. 2:9; 5:10; 2 Pet. 1:3-10).

NO THEY DON'T VAN , your opinion is not above any other Christians........ and your arguement denying the effectual call is unsupportable and grossely inadequate.

 

[Van]

Folks, the inner call is a fiction, not found in scripture. The truth is not a personal opinion. The verses are posted. Read them all, the inner call cannot be found, only the external call of the gospel, and references to those whose response to the external call, faith in Christ, was credited by God as righteousness.

Shall we take one of the verses at random and examine it? How about 1 Thessalonians 2:12. "So that you may walk in a manner worthy of the God that calls you into His own kingdom and glory." How does God call people? Why by the external call of the gospel of Christ. Note in the very next verse, the folks received from us (Paul and friends) the word of God's message, they accepted it.

Folks, we could go through the whole list, the inner call is a fiction invented by men, and cannot be found anywhere in scripture.

 

[nobdysfool]

Folks, the inner call is a fiction, not found in scripture. The truth is not a personal opinion. The verses are posted. Read them all, the inner call cannot be found, only the external call of the gospel, and references to those whose response to the external call, faith in Christ, was credited by God as righteousness.

Shall we take one of the verses at random and examine it? How about 1 Thessalonians 2:12. "So that you may walk in a manner worthy of the God that calls you into His own kingdom and glory." How does God call people? Why by the external call of the gospel of Christ. Note in the very next verse, the folks received from us (Paul and friends) the word of God's message, they accepted it.

Folks, we could go through the whole list, the inner call is a fiction invented by men, and cannot be found anywhere in scripture.

Should we assume from this repetition of a previous post that you cannot provide the proof you claim backs up your slander of Augustine and Calvinism in general? That would be the logical course to take, since you have been asked repeatedly by several posters here, to provide that support, and have not done so yet. Just saying "Google this or that" does not qualify. Not to mention the fact that you cannot believe anything solely because it comes up in Google.

So once again, we see that you do not have any real proof, just bold statements made that you expect people to accept without question. Anyone who dares to question the veracity of said bold statements is called names, their beliefs are characterized as deception and deceit, and all other doctrines are vilified to leave yours standing. Your method is clear, and it is unscholarly and unscriptural. Scripture has a description for those who cannot support their pronouncements: wells without water, clouds without rain..

 

[Van]

Thanks for posting, NBF - Augustine provided the underpinnings for the dark ages by providing the theology of compulsion.

The inner call is a fiction, and cannot be found in scripture. All these questions are merely efforts to sidetrack the debate.

The power of God unto salvation is the external call of the gospel of Christ. The inner call, the special call, and on and on with various names for the fiction, is never, repeat, never mentioned in scripture. Not once. Not in one single verse. Never. Ever. Folks, the inner call is a complete and total fiction, the invention of men.

Folks, do you know the subject of our Lord's last public sermon? Was it about the inner call? Was it about bad religion? Was it about folks who attacked others with false charges. Was it about folks who say "blessed is He that comes in the name of the Lord" but do not believe it from the heart.

Folks do a little bible study. The inner call is a fiction.

 

[cygnusx1]

Thanks for posting, NBF - Augustine provided the underpinnings for the dark ages by providing the theology of compulsion.

The inner call is a fiction, and cannot be found in scripture. All these questions are merely efforts to sidetrack the debate.

The power of God unto salvation is the external call of the gospel of Christ. The inner call, the special call, and on and on with various names for the fiction, is never, repeat, never mentioned in scripture. Not once. Not in one single verse. Never. Ever. Folks, the inner call is a complete and total fiction, the invention of men.

Folks, do you know the subject of our Lord's last public sermon? Was it about the inner call? Was it about bad religion? Was it about folks who attacked others with false charges. Was it about folks who say "blessed is He that comes in the name of the Lord" but do not believe it from the heart.

Folks do a little bible study. The inner call is a fiction.

this is not dialogue but harrasment , you come here repeating the same thing over and over , if you cannot bring anything of substance then keep to your self.


should i be childish enough to enter a thread you have started and just keep repeating myself , how long would it take you to hit the report button?


the inner call is a doctrine accepted across many theological persuasions even Wesley could agree with it , hardly a Calvinist van so quit your theological racism !

there are scores of essays available on this subject that you haven't studied , your remarks are rash judgments against what you thought was a Calvinist only doctrine , you are writing on the cuff , spend a few years in study first , then acknowledge many Christians have good reason for holding a call distinct from the outer call of the Gospel.

only giving it time will give you an opportunity to save yourself from another humiliating embarrasment , or continue to repeat yourself making folks guess your stability , the choice van is yours.

"sidetrack debate" , you are certainly kidding yourself if you think this vain repetition and attitude is debate. .. it's harrasment.

 

[nobdysfool]

Thanks for posting, NBF - Augustine provided the underpinnings for the dark ages by providing the theology of compulsion.

A completely unproven statement. Such slanderous statements against an Early Church Father must be substantiated. So far, you have provided only your say-so. That does not constitute proof.

Provide proof to back up the slander. Prove to us it is not slander.

The inner call is a fiction, and cannot be found in scripture. All these questions are merely efforts to sidetrack the debate.

It's "sidetracking the debate" to ask you to provide proof for a very provocative statement upon which you wish to hang your view? I don't think so. This sidestepping of legitimate requests for proof is the real sidetracking of the debate.

The power of God unto salvation is the external call of the gospel of Christ. The inner call, the special call, and on and on with various names for the fiction, is never, repeat, never mentioned in scripture. Not once. Not in one single verse. Never. Ever. Folks, the inner call is a complete and total fiction, the invention of men.

Some people cannot see something in scripture unless it is spelled out in so many words. They expect all truth to just be laying out in the open, for anyone to see. It's a very one-dimensional view of scripture, and ignores the depths of Truth, and the Depths of God's Wisdom, as well as the clear fact that things are hidden in scripture, by the very witness of scripture itself to that effect.

Folks, do you know the subject of our Lord's last public sermon? Was it about the inner call? Was it about bad religion? Was it about folks who attacked others with false charges. Was it about folks who say "blessed is He that comes in the name of the Lord" but do not believe it from the heart.

Folks do a little bible study. The inner call is a fiction.

Folks, don't be flummoxed by the slick, verbal sleight of hand, and diversionary tactics. What is being presented as truth is only opinion, disguised as biblical truth. No proof has been provided, only opinion. Ask for the proof for this statement about Augustine and Calvinism. There will be none, because there is none. If there were proof, it would have been provided it by now.