Outer Calling And Inner Calling.......

[cygnusx1]

Not that Van would want my help on this - nor should I give it to him -

But wouldn't John Wesley fall into this category? 'Course not sure he could be considered a theologian. I ramble on...

i think you will find Wesley being a typical Arminian believing in election before time based of forseen faith , likewise Wesley would accept election before calling ....... thus Van is all alone with his liberal concepts !

 

[cygnusx1]

Interestingly Wesley also recognised two distinct callings ;


8. "Whom he did predestinate, them he also called." This is the Third step: (Still remembering that we speak after the manner of men To express it a little more largely: According to his fixed decree, that believers shall be saved, those whom he foreknows as such, he calls both outwardly and inwardly, -- outwardly by the word of his grace, and inwardly by his Spirit. This inward application of his word to the heart, seems to be what some term "effectual calling:" And it implies, the calling them children of God; the accepting them "in the Beloved;" the justifying them "freely by his grace, through the redemption that is in Jesus Christ."
On Predestination

By John Wesley

Sermon 58

(text from the 1872 edition - Thomas Jackson, editor)

so the sheer animosity placed upon Calvinists in this thread by van

"Calvinism uses an endless string of names to bolster the fiction of the inner call." van

once again displays extreme prejudice and heartless ridicule , will we see a ridiculing of Wesley here for the two callings view , of course not!

 

[Van]

Why would anyone seek support for doctrine from anyone but the NT inspired authors? The only reason would be to seek support for the traditions of men.

I have referenced scholars whose views I partially share, such as Robertson (James 2:5), Wallace (Ephesians 2:8-9) and Morris (John 3:16).

Matthew 23:13 teaches that folks can have limited spiritual sight while still dead in their sins, ditto for Matthew 13:20-22.

John 1:12-13 clearly gives the order, first we receive Christ, then we are given the right to become the children of God. And how are we given this right? By being born again. QED Just read it folks, just read it.

The fact is no church father ever heard of the fiction invented by Calvin and his followers, prior to the dark ages.

<Staff edit>

This order is a complete fiction, unbiblical and unsupportable, it is mere wreckless thinking. The actual order is:

God chose, elected Christ to be his Lamb before creation. God created mankind. God arranged the fall of man.
God provided the means of salvation through Christ Jesus. God revealed His salvation plan through His inspired word - simply put, whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life. Those that receive Christ are then given the right to become children of God by being spiritually born again by the will of God. We are individually chosen when God credits our faith in Christ as righteousness and spiritually places us in Christ. When we are spiritually baptized into Christ, we undergo the circumcision of Christ and arise in Christ a new creation, born again, regenerated, and predestined to (1) be conformed to the image of Christ, and (2) to receive our imperishable inheritance of eternal life. In Christ we are called to the holy calling of being ambassadors of Christ with the ministry of reconciliation. And even though we stumble and sin, because we are covered by the blood of Christ, we are remain justified, and glorified in Christ. These are the blessings of being spiritually "in Christ."

 

[cygnusx1]

If this calling here

Romans 8:28-32
​

And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. 29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified. 31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us? 32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things?​

is the Gospel Call , it isn't , but if it is , then ;

1. Everyone called is saved ........ all called are justified and glorified = Universalism.

or 2. Paul got it wrong.

yes it is a rediculous view that recognises only the general call of the Gospel , and in a synical bigotted prejudiced way rejects the inner call.

 

[cygnusx1]

Why would anyone seek support for doctrine from anyone but the NT inspired authors? The only reason would be to seek support for the traditions of men.

I have referenced scholars whose views I partially share, such as Robertson (James 2:5), Wallace (Ephesians 2:8-9) and Morris (John 3:16).

Matthew 23:13 teaches that folks can have limited spiritual sight while still dead in their sins, ditto for Matthew 13:20-22.

John 1:12-13 clearly gives the order, first we receive Christ, then we are given the right to become the children of God. And how are we given this right? By being born again. QED Just read it folks, just read it.

The fact is no church father ever heard of the fiction invented by Calvin and his followers, prior to the dark ages.



This order is a complete fiction, unbiblical and unsupportable, it is mere wreckless thinking. The actual order is:

God chose, elected Christ to be his Lamb before creation. God created mankind. God arranged the fall of man.
God provided the means of salvation through Christ Jesus. God revealed His salvation plan through His inspired word - simply put, whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life. Those that receive Christ are then given the right to become children of God by being spiritually born again by the will of God. We are individually chosen when God credits our faith in Christ as righteousness and spiritually places us in Christ. When we are spiritually baptized into Christ, we undergo the circumcision of Christ and arise in Christ a new creation, born again, regenerated, and predestined to (1) be conformed to the image of Christ, and (2) to receive our imperishable inheritance of eternal life. In Christ we are called to the holy calling of being ambassadors of Christ with the ministry of reconciliation. And even though we stumble and sin, because we are covered by the blood of Christ, we are remain justified, and glorified in Christ. These are the blessings of being spiritually "in Christ."

i see , back to calling me cyn , wesley was a follower of Calvin !!! keep up the militancy i am going nowhere ......... yes we have all seen your wreckless approach many times before.

 

[nobdysfool]

Van thinks he's being subtle....Calling you Cyn, as though he had never been warned about it before....

 

[nobdysfool]

It is Van's view that is pure fiction.

 

[cygnusx1]

It is Van's view that is pure fiction.

no-one has heard his strange illogical views prior to or after the dark ages , ask for anyone who has debated this who can agree with van , right here , right now or quotes from any part of Church history and all we get is a giant blank !

just watch the trench mentality , dig in - repeat a mantra over and over and really hope not by careful arguement , but by hacking people off to "win" a debate , how is that for works of the flesh ? he expects readers to trust him even when no-one in history or on these boards finds novel views of election , foreknowledge , calling and redemption....... he is of course entitled to his own private views , but i don't welcome continual bating and harrasment in a thread i started .,

 

[Van]

Calvinism is a relic of the dark ages. Note the advocates just attack their opponents personally, they do not actually support their false positions with scripture because they cannot.

The inner call is a fiction. It is not found in scripture anywhere, certainly not in Romans 8:28-30.

No one ever heard of John Calvin's fiction before the dark ages. My view is supported by Paul, Peter and Matthew quoting Jesus. Many are called but few are chosen, does not mean few were chosen, but then many were called anyway to create the illusion of the opportunity for salvation. This is pure fiction, folks.

 

[Van]

God chose, elected Christ to be his Lamb before creation. God created mankind. God arranged the fall of man.
God provided the means of salvation through Christ Jesus. God revealed His salvation plan through His inspired word - simply put, whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life. Those that receive Christ are then given the right to become children of God by being spiritually born again by the will of God. We are individually chosen when God credits our faith in Christ as righteousness and spiritually places us in Christ. When we are spiritually baptized into Christ, we undergo the circumcision of Christ and arise in Christ a new creation, born again, regenerated, and predestined to (1) be conformed to the image of Christ, and (2) to receive our imperishable inheritance of eternal life. In Christ we are called to the holy calling of being ambassadors of Christ with the ministry of reconciliation. And even though we stumble and sin, because we are covered by the blood of Christ, we are remain justified, and glorified in Christ. These are the blessings of being spiritually "in Christ."

 

[cygnusx1]

Calvinism is a relic of the dark ages. Note the advocates just attack their opponents personally, they do not actually support their false positions with scripture because they cannot.

The inner call is a fiction. It is not found in scripture anywhere, certainly not in Romans 8:28-30.

No one ever heard of John Calvin's fiction before the dark ages. My view is supported by Paul, Peter and Matthew quoting Jesus. Many are called but few are chosen, does not mean few were chosen, but then many were called anyway to create the illusion of the opportunity for salvation. This is pure fiction, folks.

how many times do you like being wrong in a Month van ? are you aiming at a record ?


Augustine lived over a thousand years before Calvin , he writes ;


Called according to God’s purpose, not ours
Why do the Pelagians say they believe that ‘grace assists the good resolution of everyone, but it does not instil the desire for virtue into a reluctant heart’? They say this as if a person from his own resources, without God’s assistance, has a good resolution and a desire for virtue; and this preceding virtue is worthy of being assisted by the subsequent grace of God. For they think, perhaps, that when the apostle said, ‘For we know that He works all things for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to purpose’ (Rom.8:28) — they think perhaps that Paul meant human purpose, so that this purpose, as a worthy quality, would secure the mercy of the God Who calls.
If that’s what they think, they are ignorant of Paul’s real meaning: ‘Who are called according to purpose,’ that is, not human purpose, but the purpose of God, by which before the world’s creation He elected those whom He foreknew and predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son (Rom.8:29). For not all the called are ‘called according to purpose’, since ‘many are called, few are chosen’ (Matt.22:14). But those who are called according to purpose are the persons who were elected before the creation of the world. Of this purpose of God, it was also said (as I have already mentioned concerning the twins Esau and Jacob), ‘that the purpose of God might stand according to election, not by works, but by Him Who calls, it was said, that the elder shall serve the younger’ (Rom.9:11-12). This purpose of God is also mentioned in that place where, writing to Timothy, he says, ‘Labour with the gospel according to the power of God, Who saves us and calls us with this holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His purpose and grace, which was given to us in Christ Jesus before eternal ages, but is now made manifest by the coming of our Saviour Jesus Christ’ (2 Tim.1:8-10).
This, then, is the purpose of God, of which it is said, ‘He works together all things for good for those who are called according to purpose.’ Subsequent grace indeed assists a human good purpose, but the good purpose would not itself exist if grace did not work first.
Against Two Letters of the Pelagians, 2:22

 

[nobdysfool]

Calvinism is a relic of the dark ages. Note the advocates just attack their opponents personally, they do not actually support their false positions with scripture because they cannot.

We can, and we have, repeatedly. As for attacking our opponents, Calling Cygnux "Cyn" (Sin) is an attack, albeit subtle. We're not stupid.

The inner call is a fiction. It is not found in scripture anywhere, certainly not in Romans 8:28-30.

Just saying so does not make it so. Scripture supports the inner call, but you deny it,to prop up your fiction of do-it-yourself salvation.

No one ever heard of John Calvin's fiction before the dark ages. My view is supported by Paul, Peter and Matthew quoting Jesus. Many are called but few are chosen, does not mean few were chosen, but then many were called anyway to create the illusion of the opportunity for salvation. This is pure fiction, folks.

Well then how do you explain Augustine teaching the same thing a thousand years earlier? Once again, you make statements that will not stand up to scrutiny. You expect people to take your word for it. Not gonna happen.

Your view is the fictional one, as has been demonstrated over and over again.

 

[Van]

Many scholars accept that Augustine inaugerated the dark ages, with his misinterpretation of invite and persuade meaning compel by force. The theology of compulsion is the hallmark of the dark ages, and Calvinism is a relic of that unbiblical view.

 

[Van]

Folks, the fiction of the inner call is not found anywhere is scripture. In Romans 8:28 we have the external call of the gospel being accepted, thus the reference is those called according to His purpose. In Romans 8:30, we have the holy calling of those already saved and in Christ, thus neither refers to the invention not found in scripture.

In Romans 1:7 we have born again believers, who are called or known as saints, because they have been set apart by being spiritually baptized into Christ. This verse does not refer to the fiction of the inner call. In Romans 1:6, we have a reference to "the called" which refers to those whose response to the gospel God credited as rightousness, and therefore those who God spiritually baptized into Christ. This verse also does not refer to the fiction of the inner call.

In Romans 9:24, Paul refers to born again believers who had been called not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles. This too refers to those whose response to the gospel God credited as righteousness. The fiction of the inner call cannot be found anywhere in scripture.

In 1 Corinthians 1:2 we find born again believers who are "saints by calling" again referring to those whose faith in Christ was credited as righteousness, and then were set apart - thus "saints by calling!"

I can go through the whole NT, the inner call is a fiction and cannot be found.

 

[AndOne]

Many scholars accept that Augustine inaugerated the dark ages, with his misinterpretation of invite and persuade meaning compel by force.

Which ones? Can you name three?

 

[Philothei]

What about the condemnation of Augustine by the Church of 33 AD? Are there enough theologians and "scholars" for you?or modern scholars ,who are so ditached from the tradtiion of the first chirtian community who put together the bible, totally clueless?


[SIZE=+1]CONCERNING THE NEOPLATONIST HERESY[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]AGAINST ORTHODOX CHRISTIAN ANTHROPOLOGY[/SIZE]
We will complete our discussion of the Patrick Barnes heresy concerning the nature of man with the following article. With this present material, we have presented sufficient proof from the holy fathers that the teaching which the Neo-Platonists in the Orthodox Church officially espouse (recently endorsed by Mr Patrick Barnes of the Orthodox Christian Information Center website, and which appears on that website), that the soul of man alone is the complete person, is a heresy against the expressed anthropology of the Orthodox Church. This heresy is based in Platonism and Gnosticism and is common to most of our modern Augustinian neo-Platonists, ....................
Following this present article, we will discuss the second major heresy of Neo-Platonism, and this one also involves Fr. Alexei Young. This grave error is the heresy of "natural immortality." The teaching that the soul is naturally immortal is a heresy, and it is also a sure pathway to pantheism. The teaching that the soul is is naturally immortal is rooted in both Platonism and Gnosticism, so it is not surprising to find it taught or implicated by followers of Augustine of Hippo, the Western neo-Platonist philosopher responsible for so many of the Western heresies.......................................

 

[cygnusx1]

What about the condemnation of Augustine by the Church of 33 AD? Are there enough theologians and "scholars" for you?or modern scholars ,who are so ditached from the tradtiion of the first chirtian community who put together the bible, totally clueless?


[SIZE=+1]CONCERNING THE NEOPLATONIST HERESY[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]AGAINST ORTHODOX CHRISTIAN ANTHROPOLOGY[/SIZE]
We will complete our discussion of the Patrick Barnes heresy concerning the nature of man with the following article. With this present material, we have presented sufficient proof from the holy fathers that the teaching which the Neo-Platonists in the Orthodox Church officially espouse (recently endorsed by Mr Patrick Barnes of the Orthodox Christian Information Center website, and which appears on that website), that the soul of man alone is the complete person, is a heresy against the expressed anthropology of the Orthodox Church. This heresy is based in Platonism and Gnosticism and is common to most of our modern Augustinian neo-Platonists, ....................
Following this present article, we will discuss the second major heresy of Neo-Platonism, and this one also involves Fr. Alexei Young. This grave error is the heresy of "natural immortality." The teaching that the soul is naturally immortal is a heresy, and it is also a sure pathway to pantheism. The teaching that the soul is is naturally immortal is rooted in both Platonism and Gnosticism, so it is not surprising to find it taught or implicated by followers of Augustine of Hippo, the Western neo-Platonist philosopher responsible for so many of the Western heresies.......................................

see , i said the Orthodox will channel everything as east v west .......... lets just examine all things without the politics !

 

[cygnusx1]

Folks, the fiction of the inner call is not found anywhere is scripture. In Romans 8:28 we have the external call of the gospel being accepted, thus the reference is those called according to His purpose. In Romans 8:30, we have the holy calling of those already saved and in Christ, thus neither refers to the invention not found in scripture.

In Romans 1:7 we have born again believers, who are called or known as saints, because they have been set apart by being spiritually baptized into Christ. This verse does not refer to the fiction of the inner call. In Romans 1:6, we have a reference to "the called" which refers to those whose response to the gospel God credited as rightousness, and therefore those who God spiritually baptized into Christ. This verse also does not refer to the fiction of the inner call.

In Romans 9:24, Paul refers to born again believers who had been called not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles. This too refers to those whose response to the gospel God credited as righteousness. The fiction of the inner call cannot be found anywhere in scripture.

In 1 Corinthians 1:2 we find born again believers who are "saints by calling" again referring to those whose faith in Christ was credited as righteousness, and then were set apart - thus "saints by calling!"

I can go through the whole NT, the inner call is a fiction and cannot be found.

Romans 8

all who are called are justified and glorified , unless you are a universalist or cannot handle logic , then this CALL cannot be the simple Gospel Call !


strikes me you are arguing for the sake of arguing , even John Wesley accepted and taught an inner call distinct from and outer call , so much for this being a "calvinist fiction " / time to open your eyes and cease being so narrow minded.


but then again going by past records you cannot change your course , so be prepared

 

[cygnusx1]

Many scholars accept that Augustine inaugerated the dark ages, with his misinterpretation of invite and persuade meaning compel by force. The theology of compulsion is the hallmark of the dark ages, and Calvinism is a relic of that unbiblical view.

then how does this little ditty make sense ;


"No one ever heard of John Calvin's fiction before the dark ages." van


I suppose Wesley the rank Arminian also invented this fiction before the dark ages .............

 

[cygnusx1]

Which ones? Can you name three?

good observation bro !!