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Why I will not buy a Ford

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dies-l

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Ch. 3

1: And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
2: I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.

The meat and milk spoken of here is clearly metaphorical. The avoidance of meat is because the audience is still living in a carnal world.
Chapter 3 seems to address divisiveness in the Church at Corinth. Going back to chapters 1&2, we see that Paul is writing to address specific problems at a particularly troubled church. The biggest issue in this church, as in much of the early church, seems to be that that they have divided themselves along worldly lines, namely, socioeconomic status, culture, and education. In Chapter 1, Paul diagnoses the biggest problem with the Corinthian church: divisiveness. In the carryover section from Chapter 1- Chapter 2 (roughly 1:18-2:5), Paul diagnoses the cause of the divisiveness: reliance on “men’s wisdom, [rather than] God’s power.” (v. 5). And, he concludes Chapter 2, giving them the solution: seeking wisdom from the Holy Spirit. The way I read 1 Corinthians is that the remainder of the book applies this reasoning (i.e., problem, cause, and solution) to various issues with which the Corinthians were struggling. But, first, in Chapter 3, he returns to the divisiveness issue.

You will notice that, in both Ch. 1 and Ch. 3, Paul makes reference to one specific aspect of the division in the Corinthian Church: “Paul followers” vs. “Apollos followers” (e.g., 3:4). This distinction really goes back to the division between the educated and the uneducated: the educated members of the Church preferred Apollos’ teaching because he was aristocratic in background and was a better orator. The working class members of the church preferred Paul’s teaching because, even though he was well educated, he had learned a trade (tentmaking) and was, unlike the educated wealthier class, unafraid to work with his hands. So, with this distinction in mind, Paul challenges the upper class members of the Cortinthian Church, likely because of grumblings as to Paul’s seeming oversimplification of the gospel. Paul responds in verse 2: “I have fed you with milk, and not with meat . . . .” What he seems to be saying here is that, as they (the grumbling members of the church) are yet infants in Christ, he is feeding them infant food (milk), as in elementary teaching on the gospel. When they are more mature, they will be ready for meat, (i.e., more substantial teaching). V. 3 indicates that their quarrelling and their divisiveness is evidence of how immature they are.

Although you are right that the meat and milk are metaphorical and that this metaphor refers to the carnality of the Corinthian church, when we understand this passage in context, it becomes not so evident that this passage is relevant to the current discussion.

11: But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
12: For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
13: But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

The message here is: Do not participate with the iniquitous – have nothing to do with them. A call to avoid the carnal world. Again the metaphor of eating is linked to participation in the iniquitous world.
Honestly, I think you are misunderstanding chapter 5. The message of Chapter 5, the way I read it, is that we should not jeopardize the integrity of the gospel message in order to grant safe haven to unrepentant “sinners.” One thing that is worth noting here is that incest, the sin that Paul refers to, was considered evil even by Roman Pagans (v. 1). Some members of the Church in Corinth apparently thought that their freedom in Christ required them to accept the man who was sleeping with his step-mother, even though he was unrepentant about his sexual conduct, and even though the outside world found such conduct to be disgusting. It would appear that, at the very least, Paul is telling them not to condone behavior that calls into question the Church’s morality among the greater Gentile population. Whether this is applicable to modern churches that accept unrepentant homosexual members is a matter of reasonable disagreement, because consensual homosexuality does not fall into the class of behavior that is considered evil even by outsiders. But, even assuming that this passage would be applicable to consensual homosexuality, it is clear that it does not refer to any act committed by a person who does not identify themselves as a believer. (v. 9-10: “I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral . . . .”). Thus, Paul is clearly not saying “have nothing to do with immoral people.” He is only saying that they (and thus likely, we) should not allow people who are still caught up in their sinful lifestyles and who call themselves believers to participate in our churches or otherwise associate with such people. (v. 11). So, like I said, I don’t see how this has anything to do with the topic at hand.


Ch. 6


13: Meats for the belly, and the belly for meats: but God shall destroy both it and them. Now the body is not for fornication, but for the Lord; and the Lord for the body.

‘Meats for the belly’ here is an indication that iniquity goes hand in hand with the carnal body or carnal world. But for those who are saved, the body (and our daily acts and resources) should be dedicated to God, not to the iniquity of the carnal world.
For the sake of brevity, I will limit my comments on chapter 6, but I think you are misunderstanding v. 13. “Meats for the belly and the belly for meats” (or “food for the stomach" in modern translations – same diff) was a philosophical saying of the day which made a parallel between food and sex. Essentially the belief behind this saying was “in the same way that we eat when our belly’s are hungry, we should satisfy our sexual longings when we are (how do I say this appropriately? ) . . . in the mood.” Paul was quoting the saying so that he could refute it in the next line. Although I don’t necessarily disagree with your statement that sin goes hand in hand with carnality, I don’t think that that is what Paul was saying here. But, this is an unimportant point, so I will leave it at that.

Ch. 8

1: Now as touching things offered unto idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth.
2: And if any man think that he knoweth anything, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know.
3: But if any man love God, the same is known of him.
4: As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.
5: For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
6: But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
7: Howbeit there is not in every man that knowledge: for some with conscience of the idol unto this hour eat it as a thing offered unto an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled.
8: But meat commendeth us not to God: for neither, if we eat, are we the better; neither, if we eat not, are we the worse.
9: But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak.
10: For if any man see thee which hast knowledge sit at meat in the idol's temple, shall not the conscience of him which is weak be emboldened to eat those things which are offered to idols;

Idols are nothing but stone or wood, and so there is no actual physical or spiritual effect on the meat itself that imparts anything to the consumer. However, because the meat was dedicated to an idol, the whole practice has the effect of confusing and defiling the weak. And it should therefore be avoided so as not to be a party to a practice which leads others astray.

Similarly, there is nothing evil about a Ford car – driving one makes us neither better or worse. But like the idolators offering sacrifices to idols, Ford has defiled itself by dedicated itself to a serious iniquity. By assisting in the spread of Sinful behavior, Ford, and it’s consumers are creating stumbling blocks for the weak.

I can see many of you shaking your head, but look, the airing of certain programs, the sponsorship of certain events, the subsidizing of certain heretical journals… Creates stumbling blocks and does lead many into an iniquitous lifestyle.
Your reasoning here is rather peculiar, imho. Paul here is dealing with a conflict between believers who come out of a history of paganism (hence, sacrificing meat to idols) and believers who don’t come from that background. Those who do not associate meat with paganism, say “what’s the big deal? It’s only meat!” But, for some people, the very act of eating such meat tempts them into returning to the way of thinking and living that they have come to associate with it. Thus, Paul is saying, there is nothing wrong with eating meat that has been sacrificed to idols, BUT, when in the company of people who are likely to be lead into temptation by it, in love we ought not do so. All that Paul is saying here is that we should not lead other believers into temptation, and that we should be mindful of each other’s pasts, because our past experiences can have a meaningful impact on what will lead us into sin. He is providing a specific example of meat and how it relates to people whose pasts cause them to be tempted into returning to paganism. It seems that what he is concerned about here is the mental association that seemingly innocuous actions can cause.

For a more contemporary example, I am a recovering alcoholic. When I was new in recovery, simply walking into a bar or a store that sold alcohol would cause very severe temptation for me. So, those who loved me would avoid taking me to restaurants with bars or liquor stores, even if there was an innocuous reason for going. That is love. Thanks be to God, I have been sober for several years now (about 3 years and 10 months), and I have not had a temptation to drink in quite some time. Liquor stores and bars do not present the same temptation for me that they once did, and for me there is no reason to go out of my way to avoid them (but I certainly don’t make a habit of hanging out in such places). But, when I was new to sobriety, such places were dangerous for me because they would spark memories that would lead me into temptation to return to my past.

Unlike this example, I don’t believe that driving a Ford vehicle is going to cause a believer to be led into temptation to return to a homosexual lifestyle. If I were to give a ride to a former homosexual in my Ford vehicle, it is highly unlikely that his response is going to be, “there is just something about Fords that makes me want to have sex with men.” Perhaps, the person has a past that would make that sentence make sense, but this unforeseeable situations is just as likely to occur with any make or model of vehicle, and it is such an unforeseeable predicament, that to structure one’s life around the possibility borders on absurd. The reality is that this passage of Scripture provides no basis to support a boycott of a corporation because of causes that it supports or refuses to support. Although I am not saying that boycotts are never appropriate, I am saying that there is nothing in Scripture that supports the idea, and certainly 1 Cor. 8 does not provide this argument.


Frankly, the remainder of your post does not seem to add anything new to your argument, so I will set it aside to keep this post as brief as possible. It seems to me that what you are doing here is interpreting the Bible to support your decision (which, although I disagree with it, is not an inherently bad decision), rather than making your decisions based on a contextually reasonable interpretation of the Bible. In making your arguments you omitted passages of Scripture that would seem to contradict your interpretation (e.g., 5:9-11) and it seems to me that you stretched your interpretation of Scripture to make an argument that is not supported by Scripture. And, although I accept that others will likely interpret Scripture differently than me (and that is okay), we all need to be careful to differentiate between what the Scriptures actually say and our interpretations of them.
 
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dpartlow

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According to your expalnation we should have absolutely nothing to do with unbelievers. Therefore we shouldn't witness to them because that would require us to have something to do with them.
Looking at where you quoted chapter 5:11-13 is talking about how to treat someone who claims to be a believer and is doing these things. Ford is not a believer because Ford is a company so it can't be a believer or unbeliever. The passage is not saying don't have anything to do with iniquitous people. It is only talking about those who claim to be believers.


When you mention chapter 6:11-12 it is not in context. It is once again to do with how believers deal with each other. To therefore use it as a support for boycotting is not reasonable.

Also in chapter 8 it is talking about how we should interact and treat things in relation to fellow believers NOT UNBELIEVERS.


I'm not going to go through the rest as I am tired and don't feel like it. I'm also fairly certain it is going to be more of the same.
No - there's a big difference between witnessing/evangelizing and the communion/fellowship Paul is describing in 1 Cor.

I don't think Paul was telling people not to witness to the idol meat vendors - just not to consume their products (under the circumstances discussed previously).

In reference to your comment about chapter 8 - I don't disagree. In fact, I am very much concerned with the weaknesses of my fellow believers who may, through the endless heresies paid for by Ford and similar companies, be seduced into this apostate lifestyle. That is exactly what chapter 8 is about - not contributing to the delinquency of other believers (even indirectly).
 
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dies-l

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No - there's a big difference between witnessing/evangelizing and the communion/fellowship Paul is describing in 1 Cor.

I don't think Paul was telling people not to witness to the idol meat vendors - just not to consume their products (under the circumstances discussed previously).

In reference to your comment about chapter 8 - I don't disagree. In fact, I am very much concerned with the weaknesses of my fellow believers who may, through the endless heresies paid for by Ford and similar companies, be seduced into this apostate lifestyle. That is exactly what chapter 8 is about - not contributing to the delinquency of other believers (even indirectly).

Looking back at your original post, it would seem that the brunt of your objection to Ford is not that they "seduce [people] into this apostate lifestyle." Rather, it would seem that your objection is that they support people who are already living as homosexuals. There is a difference between accepting people where they are and encouraging them to sin. Ford is not a religious institution, and I don't see how they should feel compelled to make a moral judgment based upon Christian scriptures when deciding which of its customers and employees are worthy of respect and which are not.
 
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dpartlow

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Diesl,

I truly appreciate your well explained and (almost) thorough response – to what was a very long post to begin with. Now for the rebuttle.
Diesl wrote >>Chapter 3 seems to address divisiveness in the Church at Corinth. Going back to chapters 1&2, we see that Paul is writing to address specific problems at a particularly troubled church. The biggest issue in this church, as in much of the early church, seems to be that that they have divided themselves along worldly lines, namely, socioeconomic status, culture, and education. In Chapter 1, Paul diagnoses the biggest problem with the Corinthian church: divisiveness. In the carryover section from Chapter 1- Chapter 2 (roughly 1:18-2:5), Paul diagnoses the cause of the divisiveness: reliance on “men’s wisdom, [rather than] God’s power.” (v. 5). And, he concludes Chapter 2, giving them the solution: seeking wisdom from the Holy Spirit. The way I read 1 Corinthians is that the remainder of the book applies this reasoning (i.e., problem, cause, and solution) to various issues with which the Corinthians were struggling. But, first, in Chapter 3, he returns to the divisiveness issue.


1) Well put… My reason for including Ch.3 was that it was the first place Meat was referenced and I agree we have to look at the message of 1 Cor. as a whole because the beginning informs the middle, which in turn informs the end. That’s why when people point to a single verse, half a verse actually, and conclude they should eat idol meat, they are purposefully ignoring the main points.

Diesl wrote >>You will notice that, in both Ch. 1 and Ch. 3... (I had to truncate this response to bring the total length of this post below 15000 characters) since I do not disagree, nothing is lost.

2) Interesting, I quite agree…

Diesl wrote >>Although you are right that the meat and milk are metaphorical and that this metaphor refers to the carnality of the Corinthian church, when we understand this passage in context, it becomes not so evident that this passage is relevant to the current discussion.
3) As already mentioned – I only include it for the sake of completeness in following the Food metaphor through the whole Epistle.
Diesl wrote >>Honestly, I think you are misunderstanding chapter 5. The message of Chapter 5, the way I read it, is that we should not jeopardize the integrity of the gospel message in order to grant safe haven to unrepentant “sinners.” One thing that is worth noting here is that incest, the sin that Paul refers to, was considered evil even by Roman Pagans (v. 1). Some members of the Church in Corinth apparently thought that their freedom in Christ required them to accept the man who was sleeping with his step-mother, even though he was unrepentant about his sexual conduct, and even though the outside world found such conduct to be disgusting. It would appear that, at the very least, Paul is telling them not to condone behavior that calls into question the Church’s morality among the greater Gentile population.
4) My understanding is no different than yours so far, in fact you are making my point for me.
Diesl wrote >>Whether this is applicable to modern churches that accept unrepentant homosexual members is a matter of reasonable disagreement, because consensual homosexuality does not fall into the class of behavior that is considered evil even by outsiders.
5) Well here is where you are wrong. True, there are some outsiders in the US and Europe who have embraced it, but most of the non-Christian nations of the world remain convinced that it is a sign of our moral bankruptcy. (I speak of the Muslim, Atheist, Taoist, Buddhist, Hindu, and Animist countries of the world).
Diesl wrote >> But, even assuming that this passage would be applicable to consensual homosexuality, it is clear that it does not refer to any act committed by a person who does not identify themselves as a believer. (v. 9-10: “I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral . . . .”). Thus, Paul is clearly not saying “have nothing to do with immoral people.” He is only saying that they (and thus likely, we) should not allow people who are still caught up in their sinful lifestyles and who call themselves believers to participate in our churches or otherwise associate with such people. (v. 11). So, like I said, I don’t see how this has anything to do with the topic at hand.


6) Perhaps I have not made this clear. Although I am concerned with the possibility for salvation of the non-believer, my PRIMARY reason for pursuing this argument is to prevent the corruption of young believers who are exposed to a constant barrage of heresies, and the believer who never really gave it much thought and is inclined to give the immoral believer-claimants the benefit of the doubt. So really it is exactly the group that Paul is writing about.
Diesl wrote >>For the sake of brevity, I will limit my comments on chapter 6, but I think you are misunderstanding v. 13. “Meats for the belly and the belly for meats” (or “food for the stomach" in modern translations – same diff) was a philosophical saying of the day which made a parallel between food and sex. Essentially the belief behind this saying was “in the same way that we eat when our belly’s are hungry, we should satisfy our sexual longings when we are (how do I say this appropriately? ) . . . in the mood.” Paul was quoting the saying so that he could refute it in the next line. Although I don’t necessarily disagree with your statement that sin goes hand in hand with carnality, I don’t think that that is what Paul was saying here. But, this is an unimportant point, so I will leave it at that.
7) I’m not sure we disagree either, so for the sake of brevity, I will leave this one too.
Diesl wrote >>Your reasoning here is rather peculiar, imho. Paul here is dealing with a conflict between believers who come out of a history of paganism (hence, sacrificing meat to idols) and believers who don’t come from that background. Those who do not associate meat with paganism, say “what’s the big deal? It’s only meat!” But, for some people, the very act of eating such meat tempts them into returning to the way of thinking and living that they have come to associate with it. Thus, Paul is saying, there is nothing wrong with eating meat that has been sacrificed to idols, BUT, when in the company of people who are likely to be lead into temptation by it, in love we ought not do so. All that Paul is saying here is that we should not lead other believers into temptation, and that we should be mindful of each other’s pasts, because our past experiences can have a meaningful impact on what will lead us into sin. He is providing a specific example of meat and how it relates to people whose pasts cause them to be tempted into returning to paganism. It seems that what he is concerned about here is the mental association that seemingly innocuous actions can cause.


8) If you got my response #6, then this should already be cleared up. This whole thing is about not leading other believers into temptation.

Diesl wrote >>For a more contemporary example, I am a recovering alcoholic. When I was new in recovery, simply walking into a bar or a store that sold alcohol would cause very severe temptation for me. So, those who loved me would avoid taking me to restaurants with bars or liquor stores, even if there was an innocuous reason for going. That is love. Thanks be to God, I have been sober for several years now (about 3 years and 10 months), and I have not had a temptation to drink in quite some time. Liquor stores and bars do not present the same temptation for me that they once did, and for me there is no reason to go out of my way to avoid them (but I certainly don’t make a habit of hanging out in such places). But, when I was new to sobriety, such places were dangerous for me because they would spark memories that would lead me into temptation to return to my past.

9) I understand the point you make here. I was recently surprised to find out an Indian (asian) Christian friend of mine (who had come for a visit) believed Christians never drank alcohol – it is taught there that it is forbidden in the bible (a strong translation of the ‘do not be inebriated’ passage). For me, alcohol was not a stumbling block, but for him it was – and so I abstained during his visit because I did not want him to stumble. Frankly, I can see how the beverage industry does try to entice people to drink, so out of respect for those Christians who might, I probably ought to avoid it altogether (frankly I feel a lot better when I don’t drink). It may certainly be forgivable/permissible – but it is probably not ‘edifying’.

Diesl wrote >>Unlike this example, I don’t believe that driving a Ford vehicle is going to cause a believer to be led into temptation to return to a homosexual lifestyle. If I were to give a ride to a former homosexual in my Ford vehicle, it is highly unlikely that his response is going to be, “there is just something about Fords that makes me want to have sex with men.” Perhaps, the person has a past that would make that sentence make sense, but this unforeseeable situations is just as likely to occur with any make or model of vehicle, and it is such an unforeseeable predicament, that to structure one’s life around the possibility borders on absurd. The reality is that this passage of Scripture provides no basis to support a boycott of a corporation because of causes that it supports or refuses to support. Although I am not saying that boycotts are never appropriate, I am saying that there is nothing in Scripture that supports the idea, and certainly 1 Cor. 8 does not provide this argument.


10) Well, while I agree with your first & second sentences (it is the very point I make in my explanation of Ch 8 verse 1-10).... When a company goes out of its way to be the biggest corporate sponsor of a cause the leads many into carnal temptation – it has indeed become the metaphorical idol meat.

11) Your concluding sentence (above) reminds me of the argument people make – God doesn’t condone boycotts. Hello – ‘Boycott’ is a new word. It means don’t buy/don’t consume… and right here in 1st Corinthians, as well as other places in the bible, that’s exactly what the Bible says.

Diesl wrote >>Frankly, the remainder of your post does not seem to add anything new to your argument, so I will set it aside to keep this post as brief as possible. It seems to me that what you are doing here is interpreting the Bible to support your decision (which, although I disagree with it, is not an inherently bad decision), rather than making your decisions based on a contextually reasonable interpretation of the Bible. In making your arguments you omitted passages of Scripture that would seem to contradict your interpretation (e.g., 5:9-11) and it seems to me that you stretched your interpretation of Scripture to make an argument that is not supported by Scripture. And, although I accept that others will likely interpret Scripture differently than me (and that is okay), we all need to be careful to differentiate between what the Scriptures actually say and our interpretations of them.

12) The remainder of the post (Ch. 10) does simply follow the text, which just repeats the points once again – although in somewhat stronger language the second time around. My point was simply to follow the message from beginning to end for the sake of being thorough. I did not initially leave out any of the verses. But my post came to 15,900 words (900 longer than the limit) so I had to trim some of the extraneous verses. I certainly did not mean to leave out any controversial ones – in fact I tried to leave them in.

I completely agree we need to be careful with our interpretations, which is why I value this forum so highly – ‘let metal sharpen metal’. I hope I have made my arguments clearer, and more closely aligned with the scripture than was first apparent.

In Christ,
Daniel Partlow
 
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dpartlow

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Diesl, I meant for this post:

http://foru.ms/showthread.php?p=39913308#poststop

to be a response to your (fairly thorough) post - but it did't show up in the right place in the thread.

Also my response #6 deals with another post you made a little further up the tree.
 
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dies-l

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Diesl,

I truly appreciate your well explained and (almost) thorough response – to what was a very long post to begin with. Now for the rebuttle.
. . . .

In Christ,
Daniel Partlow

Honestly, at this point, these posts are getting too long. It would seem that we have both attempted to explain 1 Cor. as exhaustively as this medium allows, and we have found little disagreement as to what it means in the abstract (I would argue there is more disagreement than you seem to indicate, but this is minor point). But, somehow, when it comes to the application, we come to somewhat different conclusions. For reasons that I have already explained, I don't think that this passage of Scripture supports or condemns a boycott in this situation. The argument that Scripture will never explictly support boycotts because the term had not been invented yet seems to support what I have been saying all along. Your choice to boycott Ford, while I think it's petty and silly, is a perfectly valid choice. But, for me to argue that the Bible says you shouldn't would be just as much of a stretch as your argument that the Bible says you should. What I think I have been saying all along is that there is nothing in Scripture that can be reasonably interpreted as illuminating a position on the issue. So, once again, I come to Rom. 14 for the point that, if you sincerely feel that your conscience is guiding you in this issue, I would be leading you into sin in asking you to disregard it. However, neither Scripture, nor the Holy Spirit, nor my conscience has convicted me in the same manner, so this is not something I am going to do. Chances are I won't buy a Ford vehicle anyway, except for perhaps a Mustang, because for the most part I don't like them. But, to the larger issue, I really don't believe that mere tolerance of homosexual conduct is sufficient reason to boycott any secular company. As others have indicated, nearly every corporation in existence has made a decision that is contrary to Christian morality. If I were to resort to boycotting, I think I would start with an issue like unfair wages or human rights abuses. IMO, these kinds of things are more threatening to the gospel than is tolerance of gay lifestyles. Just my opinion. In fact, I have, for the time being decided that I will not buy a diamond (and my wife agrees with me on this) unless I can verify the mine of origin and that my purchase will not support any African states that violate human rights. So far, it seems that this is effectively a boycott of diamonds in general, but I wouldn't call it that, and I certainly wouldn't insist that everyone else join me in this, unless they feel similarly convicted. Other than that, I can't say that I am one for boycotts. But,, more power to you. I just doubt that you'll change much.
 
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TheDag

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Honestly, at this point, these posts are getting too long. It would seem that we have both attempted to explain 1 Cor. as exhaustively as this medium allows,
Hi dpartlow
I agree with this from my point of view but I won't comment on how much we agree or disagree.
 
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dpartlow

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Diesl, Dag,

How is it that 3 committed Christians can look at the same set of verses (prayerfully & carefully), and come to different conclusions?

I have to say I went into this study (see also my study on War: http://foru.ms/t5610371) with a completely open mind, willing to go wherever scripture lead, and this is where I ended up.

In both cases (esp. the one on War) I ended up with a much different view than where I started.

Although there was a lot of text produced the argument boils down to this:

BECAUSE FORD IS NOT MERELY TOLERANT (AS YOU SAY) BUT ACTIVELY PROMOTING, my PRIMARY reason for pursuing this argument is to prevent the corruption of young believers who are exposed to a constant barrage of heresies , and the believer who never really gave it much thought and is inclined to give the immoral believer-claimants the benefit of the doubt. So really it is exactly the group that Paul is writing about.

I guess it is my premise (an issue of fact/fiction ALL CAPS ABOVE) which brings me to a different conclusion, and not any differing opinion on how to interpret 1st Cor. Which really answers the question I just posed.

Cheers.
 
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Candide

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How is it that 3 committed Christians can look at the same set of verses (prayerfully & carefully), and come to different conclusions?

Could it be that, perhaps, this matter isn't as simple as black/white? Could it be that, perhaps, nobody and no one side to this debate is completely right?

That's the problem with things like this. We tend to simplify it by making it a right/wrong issue, when that's not what it is.
 
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dpartlow

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Ephesians 5:11


New American Standard Bible (©1995)
Do not participate in the unfruitful deeds of darkness, but instead even expose them;
GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
Have nothing to do with the useless works that darkness produces. Instead, expose them for what they are.
King James Bible
And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.
American Standard Version
and have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather even reprove them;
Bible in Basic English
And have no company with the works of the dark, which give no fruit, but make their true quality clear;
Douay-Rheims Bible
And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.
Darby Bible Translation
and do not have fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather also reprove them,
English Revised Version
and have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather even reprove them;
Tyndale New Testament
and have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness: but rather rebuke them.
Weymouth New Testament
Have nothing to do with the barren unprofitable deeds of darkness, but, instead of that, set your faces against them;
Webster's Bible Translation
And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.
World English Bible
Have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather even reprove them. Young's Literal Translation
and have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of the darkness and rather even convict,
xref.gif

Acts 26:18 to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me.'
Romans 13:12 The night is almost gone, and the day is near. Therefore let us lay aside the deeds of darkness and put on the armor of light.
1 Corinthians 5:9 I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people;
2 Corinthians 6:14 Do not be bound together with unbelievers; for what partnership have righteousness and lawlessness, or what fellowship has light with darkness? Colossians 1:12 giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified us to share in the inheritance of the saints in Light. 1 Timothy 5:20 Those who continue in sin, rebuke in the presence of all, so that the rest also will be fearful of sinning. (NASB ©1995)
 
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dpartlow

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The AFA has lifted the Boycott of Ford because they have begun to abide by the 2006 agreement not to be active advocates of the homosexual lifestyle.
http://www.afa.net/emails/transform.asp?x=ford_031008&s=browser&y=2008&m=03

Personally, I'm doubtful that Ford will stick to the agreement (with violations being observed/reported by the AFA as recently as last November). The last time the boycott was dropped, Ford made an about face and plunged back into thier old habits.
 
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KarrieTex

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This is the issue I have with things like this...EVERY company is going to do something along this lines. Have you boycotted Disney, P&G, Kelleogge or the rest.

Honestly, it doesn't work either. Instead of mis-using your efforts, why not get out there and be a servant on this issue?
 
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BrBob

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I haven't read all the posts on this thread but I really want to respond.... so I will.

I truly believe that boycotting a business that you want to make an impression on as Christians is exactly the opposite of what should be done.

Jesus was all about love. He says that we are to love the sinner and he tells us to go out and make disciples of all nations.

Intentionally taking business away from a company is not a loving act. It is just the opposite, it's born out of contempt, which is just another word for hate.

On the practical side. If you really want to make a positive impression on a person or a company your best bet is to act with love. Show them the love of Christ by going there, spending time with them, maybe even buying from them! If a million Christians decided to go buy a Ford today I would bet that Ford would take notice! They would not only take notice but they would be favorably impressed rather than angry!

Think about it...

God Bless
Bob
Spearfish, SD
 
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dpartlow

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I haven't read all the posts on this thread but I really want to respond.... so I will.

I truly believe that boycotting a business that you want to make an impression on as Christians is exactly the opposite of what should be done.

Jesus was all about love. He says that we are to love the sinner and he tells us to go out and make disciples of all nations.

Intentionally taking business away from a company is not a loving act. It is just the opposite, it's born out of contempt, which is just another word for hate.

On the practical side. If you really want to make a positive impression on a person or a company your best bet is to act with love. Show them the love of Christ by going there, spending time with them, maybe even buying from them! If a million Christians decided to go buy a Ford today I would bet that Ford would take notice! They would not only take notice but they would be favorably impressed rather than angry!

Think about it...

God Bless
Bob
Spearfish, SD
You write as if companies have a right to my business, and that I am depriving them of my consumerism.

No one company has a right to our loyalty. If they are behaving badly, in a way that directly offends Christian morals (and me), why on earth would I support them.

The best way I can 'love my enemy' is by trying to get them to realize the error of their ways.
 
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dpartlow

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This is the issue I have with things like this...EVERY company is going to do something along this lines. Have you boycotted Disney, P&G, Kelleogge or the rest.

Honestly, it doesn't work either. Instead of mis-using your efforts, why not get out there and be a servant on this issue?
Given the market share in some catagories... it is difficult. Yes we do try to avoid these brands however.

Actually Kerrie, I am trying to do something. Here, in the books I've published, in my investment reccomendations, and in direct letters to some of the more flagrant offenders.

What other ways can you suggest.
 
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dpartlow

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Or there is a method Tony Campolo talked about in one of his books. It involves buying shares and speaking at the shareholders meeting.
I completely agree with this. However, so many of the shares are owned institutionally (through funds) that we need to lobby the funds as well.
 
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Texas Lynn

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The AFA has lifted the Boycott of Ford because they have begun to abide by the 2006 agreement not to be active advocates of the homosexual lifestyle.
http://www.afa.net/emails/transform.asp?x=ford_031008&s=browser&y=2008&m=03

Personally, I'm doubtful that Ford will stick to the agreement (with violations being observed/reported by the AFA as recently as last November). The last time the boycott was dropped, Ford made an about face and plunged back into thier old habits.

People are already commenting that the change in advertising is only because of a drop in sales generally and laughing at AFA.
 
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KarrieTex

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Given the market share in some catagories... it is difficult. Yes we do try to avoid these brands however.

Actually Kerrie, I am trying to do something. Here, in the books I've published, in my investment reccomendations, and in direct letters to some of the more flagrant offenders.

What other ways can you suggest.
What I am saying is it makes no difference. You waste your efforts on that.

Why not go and minister.
 
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