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Marriage, Divorce, & Remarriage

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SealedEternal

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Sealed,

How do you know this? Divorce is given as an option by Jesus and in Deut 24 for unchasity.

Those who were under the Old Covenant could divorce their wives for premarital unchastity. That is not "divorce" as we know it where fully married couples split apart and marry someone else. Divorce for fully married people has been unlawful from the creation and under both covenants.

Is your opinion that only the person's who remarry outside of this allowance are in adultery OR all who remarry?

Jesus said that those who divorced for premarital fornication and then remarried were not committing adultery because the Law of Moses had a provision for that. His real point however was a condemnation against the Pharisees who were reinterpreting the Law to allow for all sorts of divorces and remarriages. What Jesus was saying therefore was that they were a bunch of adulterers worthy of death under the Old Covenant for their remarriages after unlawful divorces. It amazes me that many professing Christians read the passage and completely miss the point that this was a condemnation against marriage and divorce, and then they use it as justification to divorce and remarry themselves.

SealedEternal
 
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SealedEternal

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Actually I do.
and I can see with my own eyes that He does NOT say 'this ISNT a marriage but an adulterous affair' as your views must alter His words into saying for whatever reason :)


That's what it says:

Luke 16:18"Everyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries one who is divorced from a husband commits adultery.

Adultery is not marriage and vice versa. Adultery is the sin of a married person having extramarital sexual relations with someone who is not their spouse.


Im sorry, but the encarta dictionary does not determine the context of Gods WHOLE word for us. :)

Every dictionary I know of defines it the same. By definition it means that you are married to someone else and now having an extramarital sexual relationship. Perhaps you could give us your definition of adultery.



Im sorry, but Jesus gave exception whereby adultery is NOT committed upon remarriage, firstly.

For those under the Old Covenant, and for the cause of premarital fornication.


And secondly, for the 7th time now I believe, the Indicative use of the Present form of the greek is the one that would be used of those present forms to show that there ISNT an ongoing consequence :)

That is irrelevant. If I went out right now and had an extramarital affair, I would be committing adultery in the present sense. If I go out tomorrow and do the same I am still committing adultery in the present tense. And on and on as long as I continue in that sin I am committing adultery in the present tense. It isn't until I stop the adulterous behavior that I cease to be an adulterer.


And it cant possibly be 'adultery' to only THINK about a woman sexually since no ACT is committed....but Jesus shows that it is ;)

He said it is adultery of the heart to to think about committing it.

SealedEternal
 
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HuntingMan

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Those who were under the Old Covenant could divorce their wives for premarital unchastity. That is not "divorce" as we know it where fully married couples split apart and marry someone else. Divorce for fully married people has been unlawful from the creation and under both covenants.

And therein lies your foundational error.
Deut 24:1-4 was not about sexual sins, nor was it confined to divorcement when you say.
It Moses regulation for the frivolous casting aside of a spouse by the Israelites in the desert to take another and it was done quite usually well into the marriage and in most cases after at least a few years of marriage.

For you readers, simply study out the facts.
Even scholars who dont believe in remarriage while the former spouse lives pretty much understand what Deut 24:1-4 is actually about.
Deuteronomy 24:1-4 cannot be about sexual sin.


Jesus said that those who divorced for premarital fornication and then remarried were not committing adultery because the Law of Moses had a provision for that.

Wrong.
That penalty was death as prescribed for the harloting wife in Levitical law, then repeated in Deut 22 (and expounded upon there) to this new generation of Hebrews who would enter the promise land.

Deut 24:1-4 is regulation to this frivolous casting out of a spouse to take another :)
That is the context Jesus is speaking in in the Gospels and precisely why He was asked "can we divorce for EVERY cause'

Their error was that instead of seeing that Moses was trying to stop these 'no fault' divorces, they twisted it into a 'commandment' to do so.

 
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angelmom01

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Matthew 19:3-8 Some Pharisees came to Jesus, testing Him and asking, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any reason at all?" And He answered and said, "Have you not read that He who created them from the beginning MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE,and said, 'FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER AND BE JOINED TO HIS WIFE, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH'?"So they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate." They *said to Him, "Why then did Moses command to GIVE HER A CERTIFICATE OF DIVORCE (biblion apostasion) AND SEND her AWAY (apoluō)?" He *said to them, "Because of your hardness of heart Moses permitted you to divorce (apoluō) your wives; but from the beginning it has not been this way.


You'll notice that Jesus says that Moses permitted "apoluo" or "putting away" of a wife, while the Pharisees were the ones advocating the bill of divorcement. Therefore according to you the Pharisees understood the Law correctly while Jesus was falsely claiming it was lawful to "put away" without mention of the bill.


The fact is that these terms are being used synonymously here. The "bill of divorcement" was simply the legal document that signified that the woman had been put away. This was a reference to Deuteronomy 24 which stated that a woman could be put away if she was discovered to have not been a virgin when the man married her. That's why Jesus went on to say:


Matthew 19:9"And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery."


He was referring to Deuteronomy 24 and condemning the Pharisees as adulterers for divorcing their wives for reasons other than premarital fornication which the Old Covenant Law allowed for. It amazes me that many "Christians" try to turn this conversation completely on its head and suggest that Jesus was offering a loophole to the Pharisees to divorce and remarry when in fact He was calling them adulterers because their "divorces" were illegitimate. The reality was that under the law of Moses they were to be stoned to death for committing adultery which was the point Jesus was making there. The bill of divorcement however was not at all the point of the conversation, which is why Jesus didn't bother to mention it.


SealedEternal


The Pharisees were not advocating divorce. They were trying to trap Jesus by asking him if a man could put away his wife FOR ANY CAUSE. When Jesus told them that "from the beginning it was not so" THEN they asked him WHY did Moses then allow them to write a bill of divorcement and to put away their wives. This was NOT for the cause of adultery, as that would have resulted in DEATH not DIVORCE; they were asking about the "for ANY cause" and that is what Jesus was responding to.

God hates divorce and we are not to divorce our spouses for just any old cause. But that is not to say that a divorce will result in adultery because divorce is not recognized by God. If divorce was not recognized by God then God allowed Moses to LEGALIZE ADULTERY.

When Jesus came upon the woman at the well he acknowledged ALL of the husbands that the woman had previously and the fact that she was currently living with a man she was NOT married to. He did not say she had only ONE husband (her FIRST) but that she had FIVE husbands. ALL of the men that she had been married to were recognized by Jesus to be her HUSBAND(s).
 
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HuntingMan

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[/size]

That's what it says:

Luke 16:18"Everyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries one who is divorced from a husband commits adultery.


And Matthew 19 says this

And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.
(Mat 19:9)
“Committeth adultery” The Present Indicative deception

Adultery is not marriage and vice versa. Adultery is the sin of a married person having extramarital sexual relations with someone who is not their spouse.
And as we have shown to you many times already Jesus shows exception whereby this 'adultery' you worry so much about is NOT committed'
And AGAIN...it is not an 'ongoing' state according to the greek and the context from the whole
READERS see;
Evidences of divorce and remarriage in the Church
“Committeth adultery” The Present Indicative deception




Every dictionary I know of defines it the same. By definition it means that you are married to someone else and now having an extramarital sexual relationship. Perhaps you could give us your definition of adultery.
Im sorry, but again, your dictionary doesnt define the CONTEXT of this matter from Gods whole word.
Jesus Himself said 'and MARRY another" :)



For those under the Old Covenant, and for the cause of premarital fornication.
Wrong
Deuteronomy 24:1-4 cannot be about sexual sin.




That is irrelevant. If I went out right now and had an extramarital affair, I would be committing adultery in the present sense.
And had you ended your current marriage and MARRIED another? ;)
So it is relevant.
I simply love it when those of your views have to use this 'pay no attention to the man behind the curtain' argument because it helps the readers to see that you are definitely changing something when you have to REdefine things and pretend that words have no meaning.

Jesus said 'and MARRY another'
He did not say 'and have an adulterous affair'
He simply assigned guilt to the act of FRIVOLOUS divorce and remarriage not formerly defined as being sinful...He made no declaration as to any ongoing state



 
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angelmom01

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SealedEternal,

Embedded theology is religious beliefs that are at a subconcious level that are rarely brought to a concious level and examined rationally. We all have embedded theology, values, concepts, interpretations of scripture, beliefs about God, ourselves, and others. Embedded theology is not a bad thing, it's just a reality. When we encounter scripture, information, or experiences that challenge our embedded theology, our natural response is to do all we can to keep our embedded theology intact and rationalize or reject the information. We all do that and it's good to recognize such.

Now concerning the scriptures you mentioned, I really wish you would take time to read through my posts for I've explained in detail why I understand/interpret those scriptures differently than the way you understand and interpret them.

I've already briefly explained why I believe that Mk.10.10-12 is better interpreted as Jesus saying "If a man divorces his wife in order to marry another, he commits adultery against her." and the same for the woman. The reason is because both apoluo "put-away" and gameo "marries" are both in the subjunctive mood in the Greek text. You're welcome to check out any Greek grammar to verify this, or check with a Greek scholar.

The following are some of the points that I covered in previous posts in detail, in brief here.

1. Purpose of the bill of divorce was to stop the practice of men expelling or abandoning their wives and yet retaining legal right to them. It did this by legally freeing the expelled wife from the marriage covenant, to marry another man, and remain married. Thus God inspired its legislation to stop the ancient near-eastern practice of men expelling their wives causing them to commit adultery and the men that marries them committing adultery.

2. The word "apoluo" (put away, KJV) can mean either "divorce" or "seperation without divorce". We are determined

3. Jesus did not disagree with Moses, much less intend to repudiate the bill of divorce. He repeatedly said that the Law of Moses was completely inspired and not one jot or tittle would pass from it until the end of the earth, including the bill of divorce.

4. The Aramaic text and when Paul quotes Jesus in 1 Cor.7. both confirm that Jesus spoke of two seperate situations, men divorcing their wives, and men expelling their wives without giving them a bill of divorce. And thus we are encouraged to use the one that makes the most sence.

Lk.16.18, "Whosoever expells his wife without divorcing her and marries another commits adultery. And whosoever marries her that is seperated but not divorced from her husband commits adultery."

Mt.5.31-32, "It has been said, Whosoever shall expell his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement; Moreover, I say unto you, that whosoever shall expell his wife without the bill of divorce, except for immoral/illegal relationships, causes her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is expelled without a bill of divorce commits adultery."

Mt.19.7-10,
7 They said to him, 'Why did Moses then command to give a bill of divorce and to put her away?
8 He said to them, "Moses, because of the hardness of your hearts permits you to divorce your wives; but from the beginning it was not meant to be this way.

9 Furthermore I say to you, except for immoral/illegal relationships, whoever illegally expells his wife (without divorce) and marries another, commits adultery. And whoever marries she who is illegally seperated but not divorced commits adultery."
And of course, Mark, writing to a Roman audience, focuses completely on Jesus' prophetic message concerning selfish motives for divorce when he writes in Mk.10.11-12, "A man who divorces his wife so he can marry someone else commits adultery against her. And a woman who divorces her husband so she can marry someone else commits adultery."

This is why and how I understand these scriptures. I agree fully that God intends for marriages to last, that's His desire for all moral/legal marriages, and He'll empower us to reach that Goal as we seek Him.

However, divorce happens today just like it did under Jewish civil law because mankind still suffers from hardened hearts. Jesus did not repudiate the bill of divorce, but explained why Moses was inspired by God to legislate the giving of the bill of divorce.

Jesus said "What God has joined together, let not man seperate." Thus He encourages and empowers us to make a go of our marriages, but He also recognizes that marriages do end in divorce and man can seperate what even God has joined together (though he shouldn't.)

And of course, as I've explained in previous posts, I believe the original audience would have understood that a couple is bound by law as long as they lives as being what is intended, but it's not a statement that marriage is indissoluble or that divorce does not end a marriage covenant.

But of course, I've explained all of this much more fully in previous posts.

Blessings,
Sherman
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SealedEternal

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The Pharisees were not advocating divorce. They were trying to trap Jesus by asking him if a man could put away his wife FOR ANY CAUSE. When Jesus told them that "from the beginning it was not so" THEN they asked him WHY did Moses then allow them to write a bill of divorcement and to put away their wives. This was NOT for the cause of adultery, as that would have resulted in DEATH not DIVORCE; they were asking about the "for ANY cause" and that is what Jesus was responding to.

When they asked Him about "any cause divorce He said this:

Matthew 19:4-6 And He answered and said, "Have you not read that He who created them from the beginning MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE, and said, 'FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER AND BE JOINED TO HIS WIFE, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH'? "So they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate."

Clearly Jesus was saying that divorce was never part of God's plan for marriage. Then the Pharisees asked why the Law of Moses commanded divorce, and He responded saying this:

Matthew 19:8-9 He *said to them, "Because of your hardness of heart Moses permitted you to divorce your wives; but from the beginning it has not been this way. "And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery."

Jesus corrected them and stated that the Law of Moses permitted a type of divorce for premarital fornication in Deuteronomy 24, but from the beginning even that was not part of the intent of God. Then He condemns them saying that those who had divorced their wives for causes other than premarital fornication and subsequently remarried were now in adulterous affairs because they were still bound by Law to the original spouse that they divorced unlawfully.

Under the Old Covenant these Pharisees who had done so should have been stoned to death which was the penalty for adultery. This was a harsh condemnation by Jesus against the practice of divorce and remarriage. Unfortunately many "Christians" completely miss the point and try to use these very verses to divorce and remarry themselves, when that is what Jesus was condemning.



God hates divorce and we are not to divorce our spouses for just any old cause. But that is not to say that a divorce will result in adultery because divorce is not recognized by God. If divorce was not recognized by God then God allowed Moses to LEGALIZE ADULTERY.

You're not reading the passage carefully. Deuteronomy 24, which is the topic that Jesus and the Pharisees are discussing there, stated that a man could "divorce" his wife if "when he married her" she was discovered to have committed fornication. That means she had committed the sin some time prior, and now when he married her he realized that she had lied about her virginity. According to the Old Covenant Law the man could divorce her for this sin or essentially dissolve the marriage covenant he had made earlier.

The Law of Moses never allowed divorce of fully married couples once the two came together, which is why Jesus said that everyone who divorced apart from fornication and then remarried was committing adultery. Therefore a type of "divorce" was recognized by God, but it was never the divorce of fully married people as we know it. This practice has been adultery under both covenants which was the point of Christ's condemnation against the Pharisees there.



When Jesus came upon the woman at the well he acknowledged ALL of the husbands that the woman had previously and the fact that she was currently living with a man she was NOT married to. He did not say she had only ONE husband (her FIRST) but that she had FIVE husbands. ALL of the men that she had been married to were recognized by Jesus to be her HUSBAND(s).

I think you missed the whole point of that conversation. He was condemning her as a sinner to encourage her to repent. He stated that she had five husbands who are not really her husband including her current lover. Both she and Jesus knew that she was doing wrong which was why Jesus brought it up. Jesus was telling her if she wants to drink of the living water she needs to repent of her sin and stop committing adultery. That is exactly what I am telling the adulterers of our day.

SealedEternal
 
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HuntingMan

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Jesus corrected them and stated that the Law of Moses permitted a type of divorce for premarital fornication in Deuteronomy 24, but from the beginning even that was not part of the intent of God.

No david, that cannot be the case.
Deut 24:1-4 would HAVE to be about sexual sins in order for your theory to work and we have already shown that this cannot be the case


Deuteronomy 24:1-4 cannot be about sexual sin.
1.0
It is not logical that Deuteronomy 24:1-4 is concerning sexual sin
By WmTipton

Assertions/Conclusions of this Article
In this writing we will show a logical argument to prove that Deut 24:1-4 cannot possibly be about the sexual sins of the wife/betrothed wife using the details of the origins of Deuteronomy itself.


Supporting Evidence
What we’re going to try to show is the depth of which this goes and the complete illogic of some views that say that Deut 24:1-4 is about sexual sins by using the details of Deut origin....


Deuteronomy - Introduction to Deuteronomy
The ordinary name of the book is derived, through the Septuagint and Vulgate from that sometimes employed by the Jews, “repetition of the Law,” and indicates correctly enough the character and contents of the book.
The bulk of Deuteronomy consists of addresses spoken within the space of 40 days, and beginning on the first day of the 11th month in the 40th year.
-A Barnes


Deuteronomy - DEUTERONOMY, the second law, a title which plainly shows what is the object of this book, namely, a recapitulation of the law. It was given in the form of public addresses to the people;
-JFB


Deuteronomy -
This book repeats much of the history and of the laws contained in the three foregoing books: Moses delivered it to Israel a little before his death, both by word of mouth, that it might affect, and by writing, that it might abide. The men of that generation to which the law was first given were all dead, and a new generation was sprung up, to whom God would have it repeated by Moses himself, now they were going to possess the land of Canaan.
-M Henry


Deuteronomy - INTRODUCTION TO DEUTERONOMY
This book is sometimes called "Elleh hadebarim", from the words with which it begins; and sometimes by the Jews "Mishneh Torah", the repetition of the law; and so in the Syriac version, with which agrees the Arabic title of it; and when the Greeks, and we after them, call it "Deuteronomy", it is not to be understood of a second, a new, or another law, but of the law formerly delivered, but now repeated, and also more largely explained; to which are likewise added several particular laws, instructions, and directions; all which were necessary, on account of the people of Israel, who were now a new generation, that either were not born, or not at an age to hear and understand the law when given on Mount Sinai;
-J Gill


Preface to the Book of Deuteronomy
We have borrowed the name of this book, as in former cases, from the Vulgate Latin, Deuteronomium, as the Vulgate has done from the Greek version of the Septuagint, Δευτερονομιον, which is a compound term literally signifying the second law, because it seems to contain a repetition of the preceding laws, from which circumstance it has been termed by the rabbins משנה mishneh, the iteration or doubling.
It appears that both these names are borrowed from Deu_17:18, where the king is commanded to write him a copy of this law; the original is משנה התורה mishneh hattorah, a repetition or doubling of the law, which the Septuagint have translated το δευτερονομιον, this second law, which we, properly enough, translate a copy of the law: but in Hebrew, like the preceding books, it takes its name from its commencement, אלה הדברים Elleh Haddebarim, these are the words; and in the best rabbinical Bibles its running title is ספר דברים Sepher Debarim, the book of debarim, or the book of the words. Our Saxon ancestors termed it the after law.
-A Clarke

Now, let us note that it is agreed that Deut is basically a verbal repeating of the law (that apparently was also recorded in written form), and that some new things were added (such as we see with the regulation in Deut 24:1-4).

Let us secondly notice that it was given verbally over about a 40 day span of time by Moses in the desert to this new generation after the last had pretty much died out.

Thinking this thru logically, if Levitical law required the death of a wife, espoused or otherwise, who had committed sexual sin against her husband then a repetition of this fact in Deuteronomy is completely logical.
But we see that Moses added some items when he gave Deut, such as the regulation in Deut 24:1-4.

Now, logically, if the situation had actually changed and it was now DIVORCE that was to be the recourse for a wife being found not a virgin, do not we think it a bit odd to repeat the laws giving the death penalties for this crime (as repeated in spirit in Deut 22) if that penalty had been revoked by God or were to be within mere days of giving Deut 22:13-21 ?
Here is what Deut 22 lays out, its quite detailed compared to any Levitical counterpart.

Deu 22:13-21 If any man take a wife, and go in unto her, and hate her, (14) And give occasions of speech against her, and bring up an evil name upon her, and say, I took this woman, and when I came to her, I found her not a maid: (15) Then shall the father of the damsel, and her mother, take and bring forth the tokens of the damsel's virginity unto the elders of the city in the gate: (16) And the damsel's father shall say unto the elders, I gave my daughter unto this man to wife, and he hateth her; (17) And, lo, he hath given occasions of speech against her, saying, I found not thy daughter a maid; and yet these are the tokens of my daughter's virginity. And they shall spread the cloth before the elders of the city. (18) And the elders of that city shall take that man and chastise him; (19) And they shall amerce him in an hundred shekels of silver, and give them unto the father of the damsel, because he hath brought up an evil name upon a virgin of Israel: and she shall be his wife; he may not put her away all his days. (20) But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel: (21) Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the harlot in her father's house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you.

And this is Deut 24:1-4, the passage a few state is amending/replacing Deut 22:13-21 above;

Deu 24:1-4 When a man hath taken a wife, and married her, and it come to pass that she find no favour in his eyes, because he hath found some uncleanness in her: then let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give it in her hand, and send her out of his house. (2) And when she is departed out of his house, she may go and be another man's wife. (3) And if the latter husband hate her, and write her a bill of divorcement, and giveth it in her hand, and sendeth her out of his house; or if the latter husband die, which took her to be his wife; (4) Her former husband, which sent her away, may not take her again to be his wife, after that she is defiled; for that is abomination before the LORD: and thou shalt not cause the land to sin, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance.


God is made to look the fool here by believing that Deut 24:1-4 is about sexual sins.
It would mean that He gave Deut 22:13-21 above then suddenly remembered a few days later that He had wanted to change her punishment to divorce instead of death then amended it in Deut 24:1-4....Whoops

Notice the repeating of this precept where a woman not betrothed (aka "bound in marriage") is concerned.
Here we have the levitical law in the matter.

Exo 22:16 And if a man entice a maid that is not betrothed, and lie with her, he shall surely endow her to be his wife.

And here we have the precept repeated in Deuteronomy

Deu 22:28-29 If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found; (29) Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.

So we see that the concepts are precisely the same.
In Leviticus there is law that a 'wife' (a betrothed woman is her husbands 'wife' merely lacking home-taking/consummation) is to be put to death if she commits adultery with another man. Deut 22 repeats these precepts, and even gives a bit more color in the matter as to how they might be punished where the betrothed wife is concerned (see Deut 22:13-21 above).

*IF* this woman is not betrothed she must be married by this man.
*IF* she is a wife (betrothed or consummated), then death is her penalty under both precepts given.

If these false views were correct and Deut 24:1-4 is about sexual sins of this wife, WHY then would God knowingly have REPEATED Levitical laws in Deut 22, knowing that just a few days later He would be CHANGING the punishments to DIVORCE instead in Deut 24:1-4 ?

Couldn’t an eternal, omnipotent, PERFECT God get it right the first time? Did He 'forget' that He was about to change her punishment for sexual sins against her husband, tell Moses to give the instruction to have her killed then go ' wait, scratch that..." just mere days later?

There is a terrible gaping hole in the logic in thinking that it was necessary to repeat that death was to be her penalty in Deut 22 *IF* it was the intent to change it to divorce....keeping in mind that Deut was given over 40 days to this new generation.. .a 'repeating' of the laws to these children of those who had committed such horrid crimes so that they could carry Gods laws in their hearts into the promise land.

If it were the case that God WERE actually removing the death punishment for the betrothed wife then it makes no sense to even give it to this new generation at all.

And frankly, as far as Ive studied, in Levitical law, it is only really a 'wife' who is mentioned as far as the death penalty and of course that includes the betrothed wife.
But we see that Deut 22 actually breaks it down quite into very clear detail....details NOT given in Levitical law.

Now, why did God waste His time not only repeating these laws from Leviticus IF His intent were to change her punishment from death to divorce, but actually ADD all the details about how she was to be punished in Deut 22:13-23 or so, when He would have KNOWN that in probably less than a week He would be changing those punishments to divorce instead of death ?

It would be illogical by human standards, let alone coming from an eternal, all-knowing God to not only repeat the law, but ADD greatly to its detail, only to REMOVE/CHANGE the law within what was probably no more than a week (between the giving of Deut 22 and Deut 24).
"Illogical" doesnt even remotely describe it...it must be offensive to God to call Him that ignorant.

No, logically Deut 24:1-4 simply cannot be about sexual sins and my guess is that is why, if you study this out, you will find very few, if any, who will try to make the claim that Deut 24:!-4 is about sexual sins already covered in Deut 22.

I wont even go into the fact that Deut 22:23-24 would still have been in effect meaning that while the husband would have been restrained from pushing the death penalty, any other Israelite who found this woman in sexual sin could have had her put to death.

Completely and illogical and utterly incapable of being harmonized with the facts from Gods whole word and the historical details..
.
 
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HuntingMan

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Under the Old Covenant these Pharisees who had done so should have been stoned to death which was the penalty for adultery. This was a harsh condemnation by Jesus against the practice of divorce and remarriage. Unfortunately many "Christians" completely miss the point and try to use these very verses to divorce and remarry themselves, when that is what Jesus was condemning.
Who are you refering to, david?
The Law did not even account for a married man who had sex with an unmarried woman, precisely why those men got away with cheating on their own wives.
Where is this in the law that a remarried man was to be put to death?
 
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HuntingMan

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You're not reading the passage carefully. Deuteronomy 24, which is the topic that Jesus and the Pharisees are discussing there, stated that a man could "divorce" his wife if "when he married her" she was discovered to have committed fornication.
Again, this is competely untrue and not even the scholars of your own view that I have studied but this error.
They understand, as the church does as a whole, that Deut 24:1-4 is not about sexual sins but about the frivolous casting out of a spouse that started in the desert after leaving Egyptian slavery (this group of Hebrews also made a golden calf to worship the moment Moses turned his back )
 
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HuntingMan

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The Law of Moses never allowed divorce of fully married couples once the two came together,
Again, completely untrue.
This precisely the issue the Deut 24:1-4 is regulating. The casting out of a spouse for no just cause to marry another regardless of how much time had passed in the marriage
You are putting far too much emphasis on 'when' and not enough on the context of the WHOLE and the facts involved
:)
 
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HuntingMan

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He was condemning her as a sinner to encourage her to repent. He stated that she had five husbands who are not really her husband including her current lover
My goodness.
This also is inaccurate.
These FIVE were her 'husbands' factually because Jesus Himself has made the distinction between five who WERE her husbands and one who WAS NOT her husband...

(Joh 4:18 ) "for you have had five husbands, and the one whom you now have is not your husband; in this you have said truly."
 
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angelmom01

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Thanks for the encouragement. You know, I wouldn't say that I'm "comfortable" with what I believe. Don't misunderstand me, I'm more "comfortable" than I've ever been, but I'm always seeking a better understanding of the Word. And I operate under the very real understanding that I could be wrong, very wrong especially in my undeliberated embedded subconscious beliefs. That's why I enjoy wrestling over the Word. It helps me to grow in my understanding of the Word. And that's why I appreciate others like yourself who will take time to explain what they believe about specific points and why they believe it. Thanks again for your encouraging remarks.

May God bless your evening.
Sherman
AMEN!!! We should all be willing to recognize and accept that we know, understand and prophecy "in part". And while we should remain steadfast in those things that we hold to be true we must realize that there may come a time when God will open our hearts and minds to a different understanding.
 
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SealedEternal

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SealedEternal,

Embedded theology is religious beliefs that are at a subconcious level that are rarely brought to a concious level and examined rationally. We all have embedded theology, values, concepts, interpretations of scripture, beliefs about God, ourselves, and others. Embedded theology is not a bad thing, it's just a reality. When we encounter scripture, information, or experiences that challenge our embedded theology, our natural response is to do all we can to keep our embedded theology intact and rationalize or reject the information. We all do that and it's good to recognize such.

While that may be true to some degree, it is not the case with my view on divorce and remarriage. I never imagined that God's Word had such harsh condemnation against the practice until I seriously began studying scripture on the topic. When I realized that marriage was a lifelong bond and that any remarriage while a spouse of covenant lives is adultery, this revelation went completely against the culture that I have lived in my entire life, as well as being totally contrary to what the religious leaders I had heard were promoting.



Now concerning the scriptures you mentioned, I really wish you would take time to read through my posts for I've explained in detail why I understand/interpret those scriptures differently than the way you understand and interpret them.

I've already seen what you tried to do with Mark 10 and really have no desire to see you twist around the rest of them.


I've already briefly explained why I believe that Mk.10.10-12 is better interpreted as Jesus saying "If a man divorces his wife in order to marry another, he commits adultery against her." and the same for the woman. The reason is because both apoluo "put-away" and gameo "marries" are both in the subjunctive mood in the Greek text. You're welcome to check out any Greek grammar to verify this, or check with a Greek scholar.

Greek scholars have written all of the legitimate translations of scripture, and they all disagree with you. Beyond that "subjective mood" simply means that the action of the verb will possibly happen, depending on certain objective factors or circumstances. It has a number of specific uses and is oftentimes used in conditional statements (i.e. 'If...then...' clauses) or in purpose clauses. That is exactly what I and every decent translator of the Bible say that verse is saying.

What you are doing is trying to make the scriptures more complicated than necessary by using terms that people aren't generally familiar with so that they must come to you to have them explained for them. In other words, you are the expert and they must come to you for the answers because they can't possibly comprehend these difficult Greek concepts.

The verse says exactly what every translator of scripture claim it says; "Whoever divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her; and if she herself divorces her husband and marries another man, she is committing adultery."




The following are some of the points that I covered in previous posts in detail, in brief here.
1. Purpose of the bill of divorce was to stop the practice of men expelling or abandoning their wives and yet retaining legal right to them. It did this by legally freeing the expelled wife from the marriage covenant, to marry another man, and remain married. Thus God inspired its legislation to stop the ancient near-eastern practice of men expelling their wives causing them to commit adultery and the men that marries them committing adultery.

Do you have any scripture to back that claim? Deuteronomy 24 only said that a man could give his wife a bill of divorce if she was found sexually indecent "when he married her." This means she had committed fornication some time prior to marriage. There was no provision anywhere in the Old Covenant Law to give a bill of divorcement for any other cause.


2. The word "apoluo" (put away, KJV) can mean either "divorce" or "seperation without divorce". We are determined

It means to release or set free. The term itself makes no reference to its legality nor whether there may be a chance for reconciliation in the future.


3. Jesus did not disagree with Moses, much less intend to repudiate the bill of divorce. He repeatedly said that the Law of Moses was completely inspired and not one jot or tittle would pass from it until the end of the earth, including the bill of divorce.

Yes, and He Himself said to the Jewish Law experts that the Law of Moses permitted divorce for "porneia" which means fornication. That's exactly what Deuteronomy 24 dealt with.

4. The Aramaic text and when Paul quotes Jesus in 1 Cor.7. both confirm that Jesus spoke of two seperate situations, men divorcing their wives, and men expelling their wives without giving them a bill of divorce. And thus we are encouraged to use the one that makes the most sence.
There is no such distinction in scripture.

Quote:
Lk.16.18, "Whosoever expells his wife without divorcing her and marries another commits adultery. And whosoever marries her that is seperated but not divorced from her husband commits adultery."

I don't know what "translation" you are using, but they have butchered that verse. Virtually every Greek scholar on earth and every good translation agree with the NASB:

Luke 16:18"Everyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries one who is divorced from a husband commits adultery.



Mt.5.31-32, "It has been said, Whosoever shall expell his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement; Moreover, I say unto you, that whosoever shall expell his wife without the bill of divorce, except for immoral/illegal relationships, causes her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is expelled without a bill of divorce commits adultery."

That is not a translation of scripture. Whoever wrote that added a lot of information that doesn't appear in any Greek manuscripts. This is what it actually says (NASB):


Matthew 5:31-32"It was said, 'WHOEVER SENDS HIS WIFE AWAY, LET HIM GIVE HER A CERTIFICATE OF DIVORCE';but I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except for thereason of unchastity, makes her commit adultery; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.


As I said earlier, unchastity prior to marriage was the one allowance for divorce under the Old Covenant Law.



Mt.19.7-10,
7 They said to him, 'Why did Moses then command to give a bill of divorce and to put her away?
8 He said to them, "Moses, because of the hardness of your hearts permits you to divorce your wives; but from the beginning it was not meant to be this way.

Yes, Moses allowed them to give their wives a bill of divorce if she was not a virgin when he married her. Moses did not however permit divorce for any other cause. This has nothing to do with "divorce" as we know it today.


9 Furthermore I say to you, except for immoral/illegal relationships, whoever illegally expells his wife (without divorce) and marries another, commits adultery. And whoever marries she who is illegally seperated but not divorced commits adultery."

Again, that is not a translation of scripture. Here again is what it actually says:

Matthew 19:9 "And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery."


Again, Jesus was speaking to Jewish Law experts about what the Law of Moses allowed for, which was for "porneia" or fornication.

And of course, Mark, writing to a Roman audience, focuses completely on Jesus' prophetic message concerning selfish motives for divorce when he writes in Mk.10.11-12, "A man who divorces his wife so he can marry someone else commits adultery against her. And a woman who divorces her husband so she can marry someone else commits adultery."

Mark was writing to everybody, and again whoever wrote that did not translate the scriptures but rewrote them to fit a preconceived doctrine:


Mark 10:11-12 And He *said to them, "Whoever divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her;and if she herself divorces her husband and marries another man, she is committing adultery."



This is why and how I understand these scriptures. I agree fully that God intends for marriages to last, that's His desire for all moral/legal marriages, and He'll empower us to reach that Goal as we seek Him.

However, divorce happens today just like it did under Jewish civil law because mankind still suffers from hardened hearts. Jesus did not repudiate the bill of divorce, but explained why Moses was inspired by God to legislate the giving of the bill of divorce.

Saying you have a hard heart is not an excuse to practice sin. With that defense you could justify anything. Jesus comes into the hearts of men to save us from our sin, regenerate them from wickedness, and sanctify us from within. If one has a hard heart therefore, they have not come to know Him, and if they had a hard heart in the past and have had it softened they will repent of their adultery and make Him Lord of their lives.



Jesus said "What God has joined together, let not man seperate." Thus He encourages and empowers us to make a go of our marriages, but He also recognizes that marriages do end in divorce and man can seperate what even God has joined together (though he shouldn't.)

It doesn't say "what God has joined let man have a go at keeping together." It says we can not separate. Those who have Him as their Lord will do what He commanded, and those who do not will not.


And of course, as I've explained in previous posts, I believe the original audience would have understood that a couple is bound by law as long as they lives as being what is intended, but it's not a statement that marriage is indissoluble or that divorce does not end a marriage covenant.

Romans 7 is an analogy which marries together the concept of marriage only being dissolved by death to Jesus' death being necessary for us to be joined to Him. The original audience was already assumed to know that marriage is indisoluable which is why Paul used it as the pretext for his analogy. If it were not true that marriage is indissoluable except by death then Paul's analogy failed and he obviously doesn't understand how analogies work. I don't think that's the case.

You are simply trying to sidestep all of the scriptures on the topic and claim they don't really mean what they say. You have different excuses for each one, but your tactic is consistent.

SealedEternal
 
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HuntingMan

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Greek scholars have written all of the legitimate translations of scripture, and they all disagree with you. Beyond that "subjective mood" simply means that the action of the verb will possibly happen, depending on certain objective factors or circumstances. It has a number of specific uses and is oftentimes used in conditional statements (i.e. 'If...then...' clauses) or in purpose clauses. That is exactly what I and every decent translator of the Bible say that verse is saying.

What you are doing is trying to make the scriptures more complicated than necessary by using terms that people aren't generally familiar with so that they must come to you to have them explained for them. In other words, you are the expert and they must come to you for the answers because they can't possibly comprehend these difficult Greek concepts.

The verse says exactly what every translator of scripture claim it says; "Whoever divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her; and if she herself divorces her husband and marries another man, she is committing adultery."

But then you, in disagreement with the greek and the context of the whole, create this mythical 'state' of adultery but redefining Jesus own words where HE says 'and MARRY another' with your distorted 'adulterous affair'.

*IF* your viewpoint were correct, you would be able to keep Jesus' words 'and MARRY another intact and the intent therein, and not have to say He did not say what He clearly did.

You also would not have to twist the facts that the woman DID indeed have FIVE husbands who WERE 'husbands' lawfully and also one current man who was not.

:)
 
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HuntingMan

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Yes, Moses allowed them to give their wives a bill of divorce if she was not a virgin when he married her. Moses did not however permit divorce for any other cause. This has nothing to do with "divorce" as we know it today.
Given the details and the facts, its quite amazing that you can keep repeating this with a straight face.

I notice you bring 'greek scholars' to bear when it seems to suit your needs above, but then you reject the teachings of pretty much EVERY scholar who shows that, in contrast to your views, that Deut 24:1-4 is NOT about sexual sins, nor is it confined to the early period of the marriage but is about frivolous divorce at ANY point after hometaking :)

Deut 22, given very shortly before the regulation for frivolous divorce in Deut 24:1-4 shows us the actual punishment for this wife found not to be a virgin at ANY point during the marriage that this man accuses her.

Deu 22:13-21 If any man take a wife, and go in unto her, and hate her, (14) And give occasions of speech against her, and bring up an evil name upon her, and say, I took this woman, and when I came to her, I found her not a maid: (15) Then shall the father of the damsel, and her mother, take and bring forth the tokens of the damsel's virginity unto the elders of the city in the gate: (16) And the damsel's father shall say unto the elders, I gave my daughter unto this man to wife, and he hateth her; (17) And, lo, he hath given occasions of speech against her, saying, I found not thy daughter a maid; and yet these are the tokens of my daughter's virginity. And they shall spread the cloth before the elders of the city. (18) And the elders of that city shall take that man and chastise him; (19) And they shall amerce him in an hundred shekels of silver, and give them unto the father of the damsel, because he hath brought up an evil name upon a virgin of Israel: and she shall be his wife; he may not put her away all his days. (20) But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel: (21) Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the harlot in her father's house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you.
 
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HuntingMan

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As I said earlier, unchastity prior to marriage was the one allowance for divorce under the Old Covenant Law.
This cannot be true since we see that a 'divorce' is required to end this 'marriage'.
The couple were lawfully 'married' ie 'man and wife' and fully covenanted in a marriage covenant from the day they were betrothed.
This is why a divorcement was required by Moses and it is also why the sexual sins of the betrothed wife resulted in her death as prescribed by the law. She was committing 'adultery' against her 'husband', it was not a premarital state and Im astounded that youve had to recant your former views on betrothal and just how absolutely binding it is to make your current theories work.
When I read you before you completley understood, as do all biblical student (well, they 'should') that ancient Hebrew betrothal is nothing like our engagements and is completely and utterly binding in all religous and legal manners
READERS see this article on the matter
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=995&letter=B&search=betrothal
 
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SealedEternal

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I notice you bring 'greek scholars' to bear when it seems to suit your needs above, but then you reject the teachings of pretty much EVERY scholar who shows that, in contrast to your views, that Deut 24:1-4 is NOT about sexual sins, nor is it confined to the early period of the marriage but is about frivolous divorce at ANY point after hometaking :)

I don't blindly trust the interpretations of men, but a competent person can translate God's Word from one language to another. I still don't blindly trust fallable human translators either, but use the availiable resources to check their translating. For the most part, literal translations of the Bible are fairly consistent while paraphrases naturally contain the biases of the one paraphrasing.

Fallable men have interpretations of scripture that are all over the map, that are biased by their own fallability and wicked hearts. Therefore it is never wise to blindly follow mens interpretations. A translation can be relatively reliable as long as the translator objectively translates what's already there and doesn't incorporate their own interpretations.

SealedEternal
 
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HuntingMan

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I don't blindly trust the interpretations of men, but a competent person can translate God's Word from one language to another.

May I translate? :)
"I trust men who agree with me and say what I want them to"
Is that an accurate rendering? It surely seems to be in my opinion.

Additionally, telling what you USED to believe and then saying that when you studied it out you changed your mind is really of no relevance here.
When *I* studied the matter out I found that I had understood the basics very well, but only had to make minor adjustments because of details I didnt know about (such as betrothal NOT being a PREmarital state)

I still don't blindly trust fallable human translators either, but use the availiable resources to check their translating. For the most part, literal translations of the Bible are fairly consistent while paraphrases naturally contain the biases of the one paraphrasing.
Quite true, Id say. You seem to believe yourself quite capable of REdefinining anything that gets in your way...such as 'MARRY another and 'five HUSBANDS" :)


Fallable men have interpretations of scripture that are all over the map, that are biased by their own fallability and wicked hearts. Therefore it is never wise to blindly follow mens interpretations. A translation can be relatively reliable as long as the translator objectively translates what's already there and doesn't incorporate their own interpretations.

SealedEternal


I think we can discern from this that you seemingly believe to not be 'fallible' as these men you speak of then?
 
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