Marriage, Divorce, & Remarriage

[Spiritsong]

It seems to me that they are spending more time trying to convince themselves they are right than others.

You may be right... scripture plainly states marriage to another while a spouse lives, is adultery (Matt. 5:32, Mark 10:11-12)

 

[ShermanN]

Hey guys and gals,

Please, let's set the personal attacks aside. Don't ascribe ill will to those who believe differently than you do. We understand scripture differently. We've all had different experiences that influence what we believe. We all have different assumptions, values, and core beliefs. And we're all a mess, and really have very little understanding of God or the Word. All of us have room to grow in knowledge and understanding of the Word.

Please, let's set aside the personal attacks and inflammatory speech and rather act as Christians should, respecting one another.

Please discuss specific scriptures or principles, and not degrade into attacking others or making prideful judgemental statements about others.

Sincerely,
Sherman

 

[HuntingMan]

I believe TC has you on ignore. If I understand this feature correctly, she won't see your posts here. If that's the case, you won't get your inquiries answered.

However...
Matthew 5:32
But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

Mark 10:11-12
11 And he saith unto them, Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her.
12 And if a woman shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth adultery.
Illegal remarriage!

wrong.
Jesus assigns guilt to the act, the present indicative form of 'committeth adultery' is not an ongoing act thus Jesus is making no statements about the 'state' of the subsequent marriage.

And again.
It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement: But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication,
causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery. (Mat 5:31-32 KJV)

And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.
(Mat 19:9)

Sorry, but there is clear exception showing a conditional marriage covenant is still the case

1 Cor. 7:10-11, 39
10 And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband:

I already dealt with this 'law' before.
You are free to disagree as you see fit, but anyone who says this 'law' is absolute must say that it was from the beginning in which case Moses personally sent a multitude of women to hell by saying they could go and be another mans wife after divorce.
Moses was no such fiend as he understood that this 'law' is not absolute but is quite conditional otherwise adultery would not be sinning against the covenant. Unconditional covenants are just that, there is no condition set to them that is a 'breach' of them.

 

[HuntingMan]

You may be right... scripture plainly states marriage to another while a spouse lives, is adultery (Matt. 5:32, Mark 10:11-12)

What part of Jesus' own words are some of you missing here?

It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement: But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication,
causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery. (Mat 5:31-32 KJV)

And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.
(Mat 19:9)

He Himself has declared that adultery is not committed in every case of divorce and remarriage and again the present indicative form used for His words are the least likely in the present form to indicate any ongoing consequence. By using the indicative form, its almost like the writer went out of his way to show that it wasnt an 'ongoing (future)' sin.
There were much better ways in the greek to indicate an 'ongoing' sin. The one chosen was probably one of the worst was to make that disctinction, if it were actually the case

 

[Servant222]

Marriage is a sacrament that Jesus restored to what it was between Adam and Eve.

This thread is nothing more than apologists trying to re-write the bible for their own benefit, accepting the word of the Lord would mean that their friends, families or even themselves are in conflict with it. For them it is easier simply to re-write the words of the bible than follow them.

It seems to me that they are spending more time trying to convince themselves they are right than others.

I will pray for them.

As one who has admitted to rampant fornication, despite the universal condemnation of this practice by virtually every religious authority, including your Pope, and who implies by the slogan in his signature block that he condones the use of illegal drugs, are you not being just a little self-righteous?

 

[Servant222]

I want to be sure I have a clear understanding here- some of you believe that the Bible teaches the following:

1. that any re-marriage after divorce is absolutely wrong.

2. that those who are married to someone who has been divorced are demonstrating that they are unrepetent of their sin, and are therefore not entitled to the saving grace provided by Jesus Christ, and are therefore condemned to hell.

3. that the only way to rectify this situation, and receive salvation, is for each and every spouse of a divorced person to leave their partner and live the rest of their lives in celibacy.

In addition, MezzaMorta believes that you can have as much sex as you like with multiple partners, as long as the acts are consensual and neither party is "officially" married.


That is certainly not what I believe, and what the Holy Spirit convinces me is what God wants.

 

[Servant222]

Marriage is a sacrament that Jesus restored to what it was between Adam and Eve.

Which means that God considers the first person you have sex with as your married partner, and that it is adultery if you then have sex with anyone else.

Why do you continue to refuse to accept this fact, even though centuries of your Catholic church leaders, including the present Pope, have consistently preached this truth?

 

[Servant222]

MM- remember, you can always join a monastery to start to extract yourself from sin.

Here's one in Greece I would recommend- you can also get "high" here without resorting to Mary Jane.

 

[ShermanN]

Greetings everyone,

For those who are new to this thread and others that might wish to review a specific post, the following are the major Topical Posts that I've made thus far focused on specific scriptures and topics related to MDR. Of course, several on this thread disagree with some of what I've shared. Others agree and yet others are undecided because it takes time to rethink long-held, embedded, subconcious theological beliefs.

As you can see from my posts, I value understanding the biblical text based upon an understanding of the cultural, literary, historical, and authorial context. A saying worth repeating: "A Text without a Context is a Pretext - an Assumed Interpretation that often misses what the author actually intended." This is a foundational principle of interpretation. Thus I do all I can to understand passages in light of their contexts. Others, do not value such a view and interpret the biblical text regardless of any contextual considerations. Of course, I disagree with such an approach. I also value studying the text in the original languages as much as I can, with my limited skills, but even more so I value the opinions of linguistic experts.

Anyhow, the following are the previous Topical Posts that I've posted on this thread:

1, Thread Introduction
2, Personal Introduction, why this topic is important to me
7, Traditional Doctrine of MDR defined
26, MDR is under Civil Authority, not the Church’s
35, Marriage Defined
38, Fornication, sex outside of marriage
40, Mt.19.1-3 Any Matter Divorce
49, Mt.19.1-3 Any Matter Divorce B
50, Divorce – a type of lingering death
51, The Pharisees
58, The Pharisees, a little more
59, Marriage, Indissoluble or Breakable
106, Mt.19.1-3 Review Key Points
114, Mt.19.4-6 Jesus’ desire for us – heaven on earth
148, Mt.4-6 One Flesh
153, One Flesh, brokenness to wholeness
159, True Love vs. Romantic Love
172, “two” – Jesus Affirmed Monogamy
176, Authorial Context, Jesus and Moses, Jesus’ Attitude towards the Mosaic Law
178, Authorial Context – Jesus and Civil Authority
195, Sexual intimacy, does it create an unbreakable bond?
207, Mt.19.7 Why did Moses legislate the bill of divorce?
217, Mt.19.9 Multiple variations in early Greek texts
218, Mt.19.8-9 Meanings of apoluo, de, and porniah
220, Mt.19.8-9 Interpreted
229, The Bottom Line, Principles of MDR that I believe are Biblical
236, Jesus Radically Challenges the Jewish Embedded theology that All should Procreate.
237, Mt.19.4-6 The Vision
239, Mt.5.31-32 The Sermon on the Mount
240, The House (a little humor)
244, Lk.16.18 Divorce in the Context of the Parental Love of God
257, Mk10.1-12 Jesus calls for a radical purity of heart
258, 1 Cor.7.1 Is it best to not be sexually intimate?
259, 1 Cor.7.11-12 Paul quotes Jesus on divorce.
260, 1 Cor.7.15 Meaning of “under bondage”
261, 1 Cor.7.27-28a If you are divorced and you marry, you do NOT sin!

Blessings,
Sherman
author of "God Is A Divorce' Too! A Message of Hope, Healing, and Forgiveness"

 

[HuntingMan]

Although Im sure we dont agree on some things, Sherman, that is a very handy list you have there for those of us coming in later

 

[Spiritsong]

wrong.
Jesus assigns guilt to the act, the present indicative form of 'committeth adultery' is not an ongoing act thus Jesus is making no statements about the 'state' of the subsequent marriage.

When does sin stop being sin? Adultery is defined as 'having intimate relations with another's spouse'. Rest assured, if it was adultery to sleep with someone elses spouse the first time... it will be every subsequent time as well! Ongoing...

 

[HuntingMan]

When does sin stop being sin?

When a man realizes he did wrong and sincerely tells God he's sorry.

My turn
Where in the NT does anyone tell the remarried to divorce and reconcile? (sits and waits for the Herodian error to be brought to bear )
Paul says remain unmarried or reconcile to two believers. He doesnt preach this false teaching of divorcing to do so because Paul knows that once remarried this person is defiled for their former spouse, not to mention that he does acknowledge this new covenant as we see evidence for in the lists of requirements for bishops, deacons and widows.

Jesus made no claim as to remarriage being a 'state' of sin, only that it happened upon remarriage when a spouse was put away in certain circumstances. ie this person is not sleeping with anyone but their own spouse.
Yet once more, the present indicative form of 'committeth adultery' is the very least likely of the present forms of the greek to be presenting a state of ongoing consequence. If Jesus had meant that it was such, there are far better ways in the greek to put that thought forward.

Sorry, but not ongoing according to the scriptural texts
You kind people add that intent to His words.
You may want to direct your questions to someone else, honestly

 

[ShermanN]

Although Im sure we dont agree on some things, Sherman, that is a very handy list you have there for those of us coming in later

Glad to be of service.

 

[HuntingMan]

When does sin stop being sin? Adultery is defined as 'having intimate relations with another's spouse'. Rest assured, if it was adultery to sleep with someone elses spouse the first time... it will be every subsequent time as well! Ongoing...

Now let me ask you a question or two. (please let SS answer this for herself)

What does 'except for fornication' mean in the gospels?
What is it in reference to?

When you get around to responding, the next response is to ask you to prove your answer from scripture.
We'll move on from that point

 

[Servant222]

When a man realizes he did wrong and sincerely tells God he's sorry.

I would word it slightly differently: when a person realizes they have committed a sin, and agrees to do everything they can humanly do, with God's help, to repent and sin no more.

And despite this, we know that us human beings cannot ever stop sinning, and will break every promise of repentence we will ever make. That is why Jesus provided us with this comment:

Luke 17:
3So watch yourselves.
"If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him. 4If he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times comes back to you and says, 'I repent,' forgive him."

5The apostles said to the Lord, "Increase our faith!"

So we have no other choice but to put our total trust in God's grace. And we have no other way to minimize sin, other than to sincerely ask God every day to guide and help us avoid sin.

Which is why it is so important to really appreciate what the Lord's prayer says, and to realize that prayer must be a daily affair, because sin is also a daily reality.

Our Father, which art in Heaven
Hallowed be thy name
Thy Kingdom come, thy will be done
On Earth as it is in Heaven
Give us this day our daily bread
And forgive us our trespasses,
As we forgive those who trespass against us.
And lead us not into temptation
But deliver us from evil
For ever and ever.

Amen

 

[HuntingMan]

I would word is slightly differently: when a person realizes they have committed a sin, and agrees to do everything they can humanely do, with God's help, to repent and sin no more.

And despite this, we know that us human beings cannot ever stop sinning, and will break every promise of repentence we will ever make. That is why Jesus provided us with this comment:

Luke 17:
3So watch yourselves.
"If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him. 4If he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times comes back to you and says, 'I repent,' forgive him."

5The apostles said to the Lord, "Increase our faith!"

So we have no other choice but to put our total trust in God's grace. And we have no other way to minimize sin, other than to sincerely ask God every day to guide and help us avoid sin.

Which is why it is so important to really appreciate what the Lord's prayer says, and to realize that prayer must be a daily affair, because sin is also a daily reality.

Our Father, which art in Heaven
Hallowed be thy name
Thy Kingdom come, thy will be done
On Earth as it is in Heaven
Give us this day our daily bread
And forgive us our trespasses,
As we forgive those who trespass against us.
And lead us not into temptation
But deliver us from evil
For ever and ever.

Amen

Yeah, my abridged version of your post was 'sincerely'

 

[ShermanN]

Over the last week as I’ve restudied various scriptures, I’ve noticed something I never noticed before concerning 1 Cor.7.10-11. To simplify matters, I’ll break the passage into 4 manageable sections. The blue is obviously the Greek Text. The Green is the NKJV translation. And the Red is my translation from the Greek Text based on the observations made.

Τοῖς δὲ γεγαμηκόσι παραγγέλλω, οὐκ ἐγὼ ἀλλ᾽ ὁ Κύριος,
Now to the married I command, yet not I but the Lord:
Note that the word γεγαμηκόσι (to the married) is in the masculine plural form; and though “to the married” is a viable interpretation, the most literal translation is “to married men.” Also note that Paul is careful to note that he’s actually quoting Jesus. Thus a literal translation would be, “Now to married men, I command, not I but the Lord:” So the Lord was speaking to married men, primarily with these directives on MDR, interesting.

γυναῖκα ἀπὸ ἀνδρὸς μὴ χωρισθῆναι
A wife is not to depart from her husband.
Note that the word χωρισθῆναι (separate, part, divide, put asunder, “not divorced but illegally separated”) is in the Passive Voice, and thus the subject (the wife) is NOT the active agent, but she is being acted upon. Thus the closest literal English translation would be “Let not a wife be illegally separated from her husband.” But even this does not adequately convey the connotation that the action of separation is being done to the wife, and is not done by the wife. Also, for clarity sake, I inserted the word illegally to highlight that the woman was Not being legally divorced, but separated from her husband with being given a bill of divorce.

ἐὰν δὲ καὶ χωρισθῇ, μενέτω ἄγαμος ἢ τῷ ἀνδρὶ καταλλαγήτω
But even if she does depart, let her remain unmarried or be reconciled to her husband.
In this section, χωρισθῇ (illegally seperated) is again in the Passive voice, signifying again that this is something being done to the woman. The word μενέτω (remain, dwell, continue, endure, abide) is in the Active Voice and the Imperative Mood, thus translated as a direct command for the woman. The word καταλλαγήτω (reconcile, mutually change) is also in the Passive Voice and the Imperative Mood, signifying again that the primary one responsible is the man. Thus a literal translation would be, “But and if she is illegally separated, let her endure being unmarried or be reconciled to her husband.”

καὶ ἄνδρα γυναῖκα μὴ ἀφιέναι.
And a husband is not to divorce his wife.
In this sentence the word ἀφιέναι (dismiss, depart from, leave behind, divorce) is in the Active Voice and the Infinitive Mood. Thus a very literal translation would be, “And a husband is not to divorce his wife.”

Now let’s put is all back together.
Now to married men, I command, not I but the Lord: Let not a wife be illegally separated from her husband. But and if she is illegally separated, let her endure being unmarried or be reconciled to her husband. And a husband is not to divorce his wife.

So Jesus was dealing with two different problems: 1) The problem of men divorcing their wives. And 2) the greater problem of men putting away their wives without a bill of divorce (illegal separation), and thus forcing them to endure being unmarried because they could not legally marry another man. If such a woman who was illegally separated did marry another man, it was not a legal marriage; thus the woman and the man that married her were both committing adultery because she was still legally married to the husband that dumped her but refused to give her a bill of divorce. The woman was actually committing bigamy.

Of course, Jesus spoke to a Jewish culture in which women did not have the legal means to initiate a divorce. Paul, however, was writing to Corinth, a Greco-Roman audience where wives could divorce their husbands as easily as husbands could divorce their wives, simply by officially leaving the marriage; there was no divorce papers required. Thus when Paul interprets Jesus words (spoken in Arabic to a Jewish audience) into Greek for his Greco-Roman audience, he directs both husbands and wives not to divorce their spouses.

 

[HuntingMan]

Great post Sherm.
Like i said before, Im quite sure our views arent going to line up, and they wont most likely since Im quite comfortable with what I believe, but I do appreciate the time and effort youve clearly put into it all.

 

[ShermanN]

Great post Sherm.
Like i said before, Im quite sure our views arent going to line up, and they wont most likely since Im quite comfortable with what I believe, but I do appreciate the time and effort youve clearly put into it all.

Thanks for the encouragement. You know, I wouldn't say that I'm "comfortable" with what I believe. Don't misunderstand me, I'm more "comfortable" than I've ever been, but I'm always seeking a better understanding of the Word. And I operate under the very real understanding that I could be wrong, very wrong especially in my undeliberated embedded subconscious beliefs. That's why I enjoy wrestling over the Word. It helps me to grow in my understanding of the Word. And that's why I appreciate others like yourself who will take time to explain what they believe about specific points and why they believe it. Thanks again for your encouraging remarks.

May God bless your evening.
Sherman

 

[HuntingMan]

Thanks for the encouragement. You know, I wouldn't say that I'm "comfortable" with what I believe. Don't misunderstand me, I'm more "comfortable" than I've ever been, but I'm always seeking a better understanding of the Word. And I operate under the very real understanding that I could be wrong, very wrong especially in my undeliberated embedded subconscious beliefs. That's why I enjoy wrestling over the Word. It helps me to grow in my understanding of the Word. And that's why I appreciate others like yourself who will take time to explain what they believe about specific points and why they believe it. Thanks again for your encouraging remarks.

May God bless your evening.
Sherman

Youre quite welcome
Ive read a lot of your posts here and there and I do believe the main difference in our views is the "put away" vs 'divorce' definitions.
Ive gone thru a lot of my own studies to try to reconcile the two ideas, but so far Im at a loss as to how to accomplish it without having to really change my entire viewpoint regarding the two.

I guess it boils down to I believe the 'act' is 'putting away' and that the bill of divorce is simply the written proof required by Moses to perform that act.
I do understand this 'agunah' issue well enough to know that that is not something our Lord would approve of. Just another way for hardhearted men to destroy the life of an innocent woman, in my opinion, but I think where our views part is that I believe 'put away' can be used in the NT in such a way as to mean 'divorce' as we understand the word., ie. I dont believe personally that every case of 'put away' automatiically means 'sans writ of divorcement' if that makes any sense.

Im probably not going to be too coherent for a bit here. Ijust picked up some sushi from the restaurant and its not cut very well
Speaking of sushi, my wife is a nut for the stuff. You wouldnt think that a 113 pound woman could put down $40 worth of sushi so easily