IV : You shall not Make for yourself a graven image

[sunlover1]

Those who do not follow other men ignore what the scriptures have to say concerning the matter.

For yourselves know how ye ought to follow us: for we behaved not ourselves disorderly among you;

Not because we have not power, but to make ourselves an ensample unto you to follow us.

Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me.

Be ye followers of me, even as I also [am] of Christ.

Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.

And ye became followers of us, and of the Lord, having received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Ghost:

For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus:

That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

This is all you meant?
Not bowing to images,
Saintifying men, etc.
Okay, then in that case
if you mean hear His
revelations and wishing
he were my neighbor or
relative, sure you can
say I follow him.

If that's what you mean.

sunlover

 

[Fireinfolding]

This is all you meant?
Not bowing to images,
Saintifying men, etc.
Okay, then in that case
if you mean hear His
revelations and wishing
he were my neighbor or
relative, sure you can
say I follow him.

If that's what you mean.

sunlover

I rehighlighted to show it speaks of being examples.

Those who do not follow other men ignore what the scriptures have to say concerning the matter.

For yourselves know how ye ought to follow us: for we behaved not ourselves disorderly among you;

Not because we have not power, but to make ourselves an ensample unto you to follow us.

Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me. For this cause have I sent unto you Timotheus, who is my beloved son, and faithful in the Lord, who shall bring you into remembrance of my ways which be in Christ, as I teach every where in every church.

Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.

1Peter 5:3 Neither as being lords over [God's] heritage, but being ensamples to the flock.


Diotrephes did what was EVIL and wanted Christs place of preeminence among them, and John says do not follow what is evil.

Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.

And ye became followers of us, and of the Lord, having received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Ghost:

For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus:

That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

1Cr 4:5 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord

I think Ill pull up an old study on this on my other puter

FOLLOWING aa GOOD example is good, being followers of men besides that is not advised. WHO is Paul? WHO is Apollos? Funny how the highlights emphasize the greater point aint it?

Peace

Fireinfolding

 

[Theophorus]

This is all you meant?
Not bowing to images,
Saintifying men, etc.
Okay, then in that case
if you mean hear His
revelations and wishing
he were my neighbor or
relative, sure you can
say I follow him.

If that's what you mean.

sunlover

We place different meanings on these verses, obviously, but my laborious tedious diatribe is meant to point out the inconsistencies of some when they claim they follow no man or religion.

To encapsulate your views of following men, it's OK as long as they are not recognized as special in some way.

 

[sunlover1]

I rehighlighted to show it speaks of being examples.

Nothing gets past you

We place different meanings on these verses, obviously, but my laborious tedious diatribe is meant to point out the inconsistencies of some when they claim they follow no man or religion.

Yes, I know, this is why I engaged you.
Because of the ruthless way you
were questioning Howard Dean.

But it's been somewhat fruitful.
And you're fair.

To encapsulate your views of following men, it's OK as long as they are not recognized as special in some way.

No, I have no problem with either.
(Following meaning what we agreed on)
IMO King David et al was very special.

 

[Thekla]

We should be those who seek Christ, follow Christ, love Christ, pursue Christ and live Christ.


All regenerated Christians are saints. We don't need to perform miracles or have miraculous things to happen to our dead bodies to prove it. Christ in us the hope of glory is the greatest miracle of all.

Here, another try.

When Christ walked His ministry, He healed, He taught, He consoled - out of love. He was not, is not theory, He is love. His ministry is an outpouring of love. He is patient. Love does not force. We are battered by life in a shattered world. He waits until we say "Come, Lord Jesus". Christ is not theory; His incarnation, His ministry -- these are the fruit of the outpouring of Divine Love. Love is not "proof".

If we reject the fruit He offered us, do we not reject Him ? Do we reject the fruit of salvific history: the birth, the ministry, the cross, the resurrection, the ascension ?

The Saints are filled with the love of Christ -- He bears fruit in them. They do not seek glory. Many of them accepted martyrdom, poverty and any deprivation, all without perturbation. When St. Polycarp, Bishop of Smyrna, refused to deny Christ, they tried to burn him to death. Eyewitnesses report that "the fire was as dew to him".

The fruit of the Christian life is the outpouring of love. Love cannot be forced, and cannot be contained. In the Saints, we see the fulfillment, the fruit of Christ's promise, yet on earth. We remember the Saints because they are the "fruit of Christ".

We also see that, in Christ, all humans have the potential to "bear fruit". Again, that our life in Him is not an "idea". This is not to accuse anyone of loving the "idea" of Christ. Just another attempt to explain.

We should not deny to rejoice in any of the fruit of God's love
for us

 

[Theophorus]

The fruit of the Christian life is the outpouring of love. Love cannot be forced, and cannot be contained. In the Saints, we see the fulfillment, the fruit of Christ's promise, yet on earth. We remember the Saints because they are the "fruit of Christ".

We also see that, in Christ, all humans have the potential to "bear fruit". Again, that our life in Him is not an "idea". This is not to accuse anyone of loving the "idea" of Christ. Just another attempt to explain.

.

 

[icedtea]

We may remember them, like we would remember George Washington, but we don't need them to love Jesus. I've done that a long time without ever thinking of them.

 

[Theophorus]

We may remember them, like we would remember George Washington, but we don't need them to love Jesus. I've done that a long time without ever thinking of them.

But the scriptures testify to them....

 

[Fireinfolding]

But the scriptures testify to them....

Scriptures are to testify of Christ.

John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

Though John has a "record" contained in scripture and that record includes His faithfulness to testify of the LIGHT (Christ).

The scriptures and those in Christ are in one accord when it comes to their testimony, its always Christ. Even the Spirit of truth speaks to Him.

All one

Peace

Fireinfolding

 

[repentant]

Those who do not follow other men ignore what the scriptures have to say concerning the matter.

For yourselves know how ye ought to follow us: for we behaved not ourselves disorderly among you;

Not because we have not power, but to make ourselves an ensample unto you to follow us.

Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me.

Be ye followers of me, even as I also [am] of Christ.

Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.

And ye became followers of us, and of the Lord, having received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Ghost:

For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus:

That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

Theo, you should have highlighted this one too..

For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God

 

[Fireinfolding]

Theo, you should have highlighted this one too..

For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God

Heres a highlighted one

1Thes 2:4 For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews:

GOOD examples

Peace

Fireinfolding

 

[repentant]

Heres a highlighted one

1Thes 2:4 For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews:

GOOD examples

Peace

Fireinfolding

And what exactly do you think the Saints are?

 

[sunlover1]

But it's been somewhat fruitful.
And you're fair.


No, I have no problem with either.
(Following meaning what we agreed on)
IMO King David et al was very special.

Then again..
Maybe this is what you have in mind?

Romans 10:13-15
13 For "Anyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."
14 But how can they call on him to save them unless they believe in him?
And how can they believe in him if they have never heard about him?
And how can they hear about him unless someone tells them?
15 And how will anyone go and tell them without being sent?
That is what the Scriptures mean when they say,
"How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"

 

[Thekla]

"How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"

 

[LadyGarnetRose]

He has become man (and still is), and taken on that which He created, therefore it IS acceptable to make images of Him to affirm the Gospel.

The verses you quote (in part) were to Israel to keep them from worshipping false gods which were fashioned by the hand of man. We worship Christ, who was not fashioned or created, but eternally Begotten of the Father . Images of Him do not break His Commandment.

I'd like to know where it says that by the hand of God.

Not something a bunch of men came up with hundreds of years later. But where God, has invalidated His own words.

 

[Oblio]

Read the pronouncements of the 7th Oecumenical Council.

 

[Thekla]

But in the context you tried to use that verse you did. We are not looking for miracles, that is why you used this quote out of context. When the miracle with St. Nektarios happened, it just happened. You act like they were looking for this to happen. Do you understand? God did this to show that St. Nektarios was a Saint, and was glorified by God. The miracle was not asked for. Actually it is the Protestants who look for miracles, with their "healing" sermons or whatever they are..

Yes that is one sign that they have been glorified by God, .

hey, sorry to drag up this thread -- but this is an important point, I think, about "mentoring" or life as an example. This miracle, as Repentant noted, "just happened". And there were others as well.

Eventually, people wanted to know more about St. Nektarios' life -- and here is where another wealth is found for believer and non-believer alike: he loved and trusted God from a young age, many times he was "attacked" by other humans, yet he did not strike back, though a Bishop, he did the yardwork and lived humbly (materially) and always helped those in need, he was known to be prayerful and loving ...

We hear about the miracles, we look back at the life and say, "ah, this is how the Gospel is lived; this is what fruit looks like".

This is how the Saints testify of Christ ... yes, we have scripture, but its harder to "misread" a life. We can't say -- wrong translation, wrong interpretation, I don't understand the terminology you're using". A life can "keep us all on one page", the page that is about Christ, and "only Him".

 

[LadyGarnetRose]

Read the pronouncements of the 7th Oecumenical Council.

That still does not answer the question I asked.

 

[Oblio]

That still does not answer the question I asked.

You asked:

I'd like to know where it says that by the hand of God.

My answer stands.

 

[Thekla]

That still does not answer the question I asked.

LGR,

you may also want to look at writings by (I think "On the Divine Images") by St. John of Damascus -- can't find my copy, but it is available online.

I think he cites the OT passages outlining the required decorative aspects in OT worship.