IV : You shall not Make for yourself a graven image

[Thekla]

That still does not answer the question I asked.

I always have difficulty pasting urls, so hope this works:

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/johndamascus-images.html

 

[LadyGarnetRose]

LGR,

you may also want to look at writings by (I think "On the Divine Images") by St. John of Damascus -- can't find my copy, but it is available online.

I think he cites the OT passages outlining the required decorative aspects in OT worship.

None of which prayers were said in front of to the corresponding person the statue represents. None of which where people genuflected to.

None of which represented God in any of His aspects.

That is what makes an image graven. Not a picture of something as decoration. But a picture, a statue, of God.

 

[Oblio]

None of which represented God in any of His aspects.

Do you believe in the Incarnation ?

 

[Oblio]

That is what makes an image graven. Not a picture of something as decoration. But a picture, a statue, of God.

You obviously did NOT read the treatise, but are simple eisegeting based on your prejudice.

 

[Thekla]

None of which prayers were said in front of to the corresponding person the statue represents. None of which where people genuflected to.

None of which represented God in any of His aspects.

That is what makes an image graven. Not a picture of something as decoration. But a picture, a statue, of God.

... I'm not certain whether you're responding to the treatise I indicated, or if this is a general question ...

 

[Oblio]

What's a genuflect

 

[Thekla]

None of which prayers were said in front of to the corresponding person the statue represents. None of which where people genuflected to.

None of which represented God in any of His aspects.

That is what makes an image graven. Not a picture of something as decoration. But a picture, a statue, of God.

I will try to clarify some points:

in the OC we don't have statues

you'll find the clarification on "respect vs. adoration" (I think - long time since I've read the treatise) in the treatise

what you may interpret as "worship" is actually not, but more like a show of "affiliation" -- its easier than writing a signature or making a wax seal (to show assent) on the icon. And they'd get all crudded up too

kissing is something thats done alot -- family members, friends, Christian brothers and sisters. It just seems weird in a culture where a show of affection with the body is not usual ...

 

[sunlover1]

What's a genuflect

I thought it was what you do before you
sit in the pew. Sort of like a curtsy.
?

 

[christianmomof3]

I will try to clarify some points:

in the OC we don't have statues

kissing is something thats done alot -- family members, friends, Christian brothers and sisters. It just seems weird in a culture where a show of affection with the body is not usual ...

I honestly don't see what difference it makes if it is a statue or a painting. It is a representation of God or a person. So, if you venerate paintings I don't know why you would not venerate statues. It seems the same to me.

Also, the kissing business - yes, we kiss people, but kissing stuff seems a bit odd to me. Do these cultures that you are talking about regularly kiss other stuff too or just statues and paintings?

 

[Thekla]

I honestly don't see what difference it makes if it is a statue or a painting. It is a representation of God or a person. So, if you venerate paintings I don't know why you would not venerate statues. It seems the same to me.

Also, the kissing business - yes, we kiss people, but kissing stuff seems a bit odd to me. Do these cultures that you are talking about regularly kiss other stuff too or just statues and paintings?

I can't answer the statue question, because that practice is pretty much limited to the RCC, and I don't belong to the RCC.

The treatise I posted, if I remember, addresses the 2d/3d issue.

Also, we DON"T have icons of God -- the Father or Holy Spirit, because they haven't been "seen" ( incarnated). The icons are of Christ, His Mother and the Saints, "Feast Days" ( like Pentecost, Nativity).

We also kiss the Gospel. again its a show of respect and affiliation.

Ever hear the phrase "seal it with a kiss" ?

 

[Thekla]

This may be a help too ...

the use of icons help to protect the faithful from heresies ...

They affirm:

that Christ was truly incarnated

that he was born

Also -- by depicting the Saints (and recalling their actual life stories),
icons protect against the (gnostic) notion that Christ was for an "elite, and intellectually superior , few". (Many of our Saints were illiterate).

 

[icedtea]

This may be a help too ...

the use of icons help to protect the faithful from heresies ...

.

I, and many others never needed them to do that.
The Holy Spirit protected us.

 

[Oblio]

And many He did not.

 

[Theophorus]

None of which prayers were said in front of to the corresponding person the statue represents. None of which where people genuflected to.

None of which represented God in any of His aspects.

That is what makes an image graven. Not a picture of something as decoration. But a picture, a statue, of God.

What makes a picture, or money, or a tree idolatry is when people worship the creation rather than the creator.

Iconography is the affirmation of:
1)God as man
2)The Theotokos as the mother of God [see #1]
3) The indwelling of Christ in us [see #1]
4) The history of God's revelation to man concerning Himself [see #1]

 

[icedtea]

And many He did not.

Are you saying the icons come through when/if the Holy Spirit fails?

 

[Thekla]

I, and many others never needed them to do that.
The Holy Spirit protected us.

this was likely more of an issue when heresies were more "noticeable" -
gnosticism isn't so obvious to us any longer ...

it certainly helped to "check" the parameters of individual spiritual growth -- keep some from going too far. We need to remember, what is not our individual weakness may be our brother's ... the Church needs to provide for us now and in the future, too ...

 

[Thekla]

Are you saying the icons come through when/if the Holy Spirit fails?

the Holy Spirit doesn't fail -- we do

 

[Thekla]

and speaking of idolatry ...

the most common form of idolatry (I would think) is when we put ourselves before God and neighbor

 

[Theophorus]

gnosticism isn't so obvious to us any longer ...

That's a true statement...

 

[icedtea]

. the Church needs to provide for us now and in the future, too ...

And it does, my church does!