Why is incense looked down upon as being something created by the "Catholic Church"? Do people not know that the Jews used incense in worship? Did they not read in Scripture incense being used in the Heavenly Worship?
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CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.
And then along came Mary...
- Thread starter Rick Otto
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PassthePeace1
CARO CARDO SALUTIS
Which really brings me back to my original question...
You posted this above, to which I responded below...
You then said this, below...
My answer...
your response..
mine...
And it just kinda, spirals downward from there...lol..I never did really get an answer, to my question. I am not sure, if you don't know the answer, or won't answer the question.
Which ever the reason, maybe we can try it this way....
There is Tradition, with a captial "T"...which I usually refer to as Sacred Tradition, to distinguish, it from traditions...with a little "t". And of course, there is the imfamous, traditions of "man". The first two traditons have a place in the Church...the latter does not!
Sacred Traditions are from the Deposit of Faith, left to us from Christ and the Apostles, while traditions are more like disciplines...such as not eating meat on Fridays, the Rosary, Preistly celibacy...etc....similar to what many Protestant groups, will have for their members....for example, the election of pastors in different Protestant groups, altar calls and Baptist prohibtion against drinking alcohol..just to name a few.
One Sacred Tradition, that the reformers didn't reject were the defined dogma of the Trinity, you don't find the word trinity, or the dogma clearly spelled out from Sacred Scripture. However, it's part of the Deposit of Faith, that the Apostles...passed on to us.
So I was wondering, back when I ask my original questions....why is it that Protestants, while accept one teaching from the Deposit of Faith, and yet reject another.
And in reqards to traditions that are uniquely Protestant, why is that okay...to go outside of the bible, but it is wrong if the Catholic Church does it...just seems like a double standard to me.
Peace be with you...Pam
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Jesus would love, respect and honour His mother. And so will I.
God Bless.
And we should love and respect her to the same degree that Jesus did . . . . .
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And we should love and respect her to the same degree that Jesus did . . . . .
Now in that respect, would you ask her for help and/or obey her?
I am sure Jesus did..
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Yes, and I'm sure Jesus did, also. And if she stood in front of me today, I would embrace her, kiss her and pump her for advice and information . . . .
I don't condemn those who pray to her, I just don't practice the same because there is just no way to know she would hear me. Even if she did and I knew that she did, she would not have God's ear anymore that you or I . . . . .
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Clearly, Rick would not assert to be more knowledgeable than the ECFs. But, did you consider that maybe he's more knowledgeable about some of the ECFs than you, that maybe what you assert they may have believed is incorrect?
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Passthepeace1 said:
Because, the evidence simply does not affirm all the teachings of the RCC/EOC.
We separate "traditions" from "doctrine." Traditions are more about practice . . . . etc . . .Passthepeace1 said:
Is there a specific Protestant Doctrine that you find to be extra-biblical?
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PassthePeace1
CARO CARDO SALUTIS
Well, we do too...we have Sacred Traditions, drawn from the Deposit of Faith, and we have traditons...that are more like practices...or disciplines.
Yes, but I was referring more to traditions...rather than doctrine. But as to the traditons...yes, I mentioned a few....they way some Protestant groups elect pastors, alter calls, prohibtion of drinking alcohol by some groups..mainly Baptist.
Peace be with you...Pam
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Hey, it works in your favor if the majority of Protestants--and Catholics and the Orthodox--never resort to reading the fathers for themselves and just accept that what the RCs and EOs claim about them are true. I find it amazing when I read what an ECF really believed and compare it to what both faiths assert they believed.
No protestant asserts that the Church the Holy Spirit established to preserve the Gospel, ie: the Bible is "Satan's tool." Now you may have some who ridiculously claim that a particular denomination is "Satan's tool." But, most Christians don't get caught up is such accusations.
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For instance, the PV of Mary. Most Protestant denominations believe that Scripture simply does not give enough information regarding this particular issue, therefore, they do not/have not established a doctrine regarding this issue. Certain denominations believe that Mary had other children, but it is not encumbent upon the church members to believe accordingly. I can believe either way about Mary. I simply choose to refrain coming to a "definite" conclusion. The evidence I perceive from Scripture leans strongly towards Mary having other children. But, it's still not enough info to make an assertion that she definitely did.
We do not begrudge "traditions." We only object when "traditions" become doctrine and are imposed upon church members as "must" believe traditions without Biblical affirmation.
God bless!
Lisa
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PassthePeace1
CARO CARDO SALUTIS
This is why Sacred Tradition, is so helpful, and is as reliable as Sacred Scripture, because it comes from the same Deposit of Faith.
Sacred Traditions are doctrine and dogmas, not "traditions"....And that is what I am referring to, and some don't have biblical affirmation.
Have to finish this later...my husband, is ready to go into town. Thanks for the discussion!
Peace be with you...Pam
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TheListener
Save a cow - eat a vegetarian!
Jesus said "If you don't eat my flesh and drink my blood you have no life in you."I don't believe we (man) can limit God.
Matthew 18:20
20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.
Isn't it a bit hypocritical to claim a "symbolic" communion is not really necessary but nice to do once every 6 months? You're going against the Bible you claim to follow.
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You see, I disagree, because no one can even direct me to this "deposit" of faith. I can direct you explicitly to where I see affirmation of my beliefs. But, when one asks for direction to the "depost of Sacred Tradition," no one seems to be able to direct him there. Where do I find it? From whence does it get its authority? Why should I recognize it as authoritative?
I understand this. I was merely trying to distinguish the differences for you. We observe "traditions" that are practice, not dogmatic teachings affirmed in Scripture.
You stated that we object to the traditions that you observe based upon the fact they are not biblical, yet we have tradtions of our own. It was my intent to show you the difference between the traditions we observe and the "Sacred" traditions to which those of your faith are bound. We are not being hypocritical. If something is doctrine/dogma in our faith. It is biblically based. We can direct you to chapter and verse. Now, what we will quibble over is the interpretation of those verses.
See you tomorrow!
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Anyone who claims final authority on earth over His word has severly limited God. Read Psalm 19 & relax a little.
"Deposit of Faith
The source or fount of revealed truths, namely, Scripture and Tradition, which must be accepted by all true Christians on the authority of God.
New Catholic Dictionary"
What a waste of time. here I thought we were discussing something other &/more than Scripture & Tradition.
Look, we obviously disagree over scripture, what is the mystery about our disagreements over tradition?
Finaly, you decided to be specific.
The "Alter Call" is an invention attributed chiefly to Charles Finney, and it is a bit of an embarrassment if you ask me.
It is part of the counter-reformation fruits of pretenders in our midst. It perpetuates the free will myth, destroys predestination & eternal security, makes us vulnerable to a Levite type priesthood & stunts our growth as the individual priests & kings after the order of Melchizedek, that we are meant to be. It centers our salvation on our own wills instead of God's, where it is & belongs. It makes our decision an essential ingredient rather than an essential consequence of irresistable grace. Who decides who is to be born? Same thing with born again. The gift of life is not ours to choose or reject. As babes, we are totaly dependant, both physicaly and spiritualy.
Pass,
the reason we follow some traditions and not others is because the others are wrong.
We are allowed to be responsible for our own faith. We can feel free to answer any of these questions according to our own understanding, unless you ask specificaly for a denominational authority's official position. Even then, as with your own congregation(s), ours have dissenters within their own ranks. Get real with it.
I mean, look at what ya said here:
Originally Posted by PassthePeace1
This is why Sacred Tradition, is so helpful, and is as reliable as Sacred Scripture, because it comes from the same Deposit of Faith.
Isn't that saying,"This is why Sacred Tradition, is so helpful, and is as reliable as Sacred Scripture, because it comes from the same Sacred Scripture and Tradition."
But does it realy?
"Deposit of Faith
The source or fount of revealed truths, namely, Scripture and Tradition, which must be accepted by all true Christians on the authority of God.
New Catholic Dictionary"
What a waste of time. here I thought we were discussing something other &/more than Scripture & Tradition.
Look, we obviously disagree over scripture, what is the mystery about our disagreements over tradition?
Finaly, you decided to be specific.
The "Alter Call" is an invention attributed chiefly to Charles Finney, and it is a bit of an embarrassment if you ask me.
It is part of the counter-reformation fruits of pretenders in our midst. It perpetuates the free will myth, destroys predestination & eternal security, makes us vulnerable to a Levite type priesthood & stunts our growth as the individual priests & kings after the order of Melchizedek, that we are meant to be. It centers our salvation on our own wills instead of God's, where it is & belongs. It makes our decision an essential ingredient rather than an essential consequence of irresistable grace. Who decides who is to be born? Same thing with born again. The gift of life is not ours to choose or reject. As babes, we are totaly dependant, both physicaly and spiritualy.
Pass,
the reason we follow some traditions and not others is because the others are wrong.
We are allowed to be responsible for our own faith. We can feel free to answer any of these questions according to our own understanding, unless you ask specificaly for a denominational authority's official position. Even then, as with your own congregation(s), ours have dissenters within their own ranks. Get real with it.
I mean, look at what ya said here:
Originally Posted by PassthePeace1
This is why Sacred Tradition, is so helpful, and is as reliable as Sacred Scripture, because it comes from the same Deposit of Faith.
Isn't that saying,"This is why Sacred Tradition, is so helpful, and is as reliable as Sacred Scripture, because it comes from the same Sacred Scripture and Tradition."
But does it realy?
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