And then along came Mary...

[PassthePeace1]

Here we go again with the death theory.

Death theory?

Solomon did not know his sibiling..

So we only exsist, if we are known by other people? I would think, that since the bible states, that before we were born, that God knew us...would be enough, to validate our existance.

He was an only child being that the first child was not raised. He was an only child to His mother. The first child was not here..

I didn't get to raise, my fourth child. Does that make the child, any less of my child, than my other children? The child that died, was just as much a gift from God, as the ones that lived.

 

[HisBelovedMelody]

The brother was dead, and if it is speaking of Christ, it is speaking of when He was an only child, not he was always.

not even...he is speaking of WISDOM...that would be Solomon...NO where near anything to do with Mary!

 

[sunlover1]

As would be the way you take the Lord's Supper. As I'm positive there is no Consecration so therefore no real presence. These things, to start, are Protestant "tradition".

I don't believe we (man) can limit God.

Matthew 18:20
20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

 

[SunMessenger]

I don't believe we (man) can limit God.

Matthew 18:20
20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

Amen... Amen... Amen

 

[PassthePeace1]

why don't you tell me. You are the one stuck on tradition.. I have freedom in Christ and His word. I have Christ in Me. His presence lives within Me not within a piece of bread or a cup of wine.. I don't have to worry about sacraments or purgatory or any of this you claim is tradtion. For I am safe and secure in the One Whom saves..

Well, that is point really....how do you reject some of the Traditions from the Catholic Church, and not others? If you claim that some are "man-made", why is it, the ones that still hold to...aren't? All of Sacred Tradition, comes from the same source...the Deposit of Faith, which was left to us, by the Apostles. So where the Apostles, right on some (the ones you believe and practice) and wrong one others (the ones you reject).

What about some of the traditions, that are unique to Protestants? Why is it, that they are okay? Yet, uniquely Catholic traditions, are wrong?

Peace be with you...Pam

 

[Rick Otto]

Originally Posted by Rick Otto
Well, Proe...
I have to admit, the RCC did keep scripture, they even outlawed us havin' our own copy, but they didn't keep it alive. I think we can safely say the Holy Spirit kept it alive in spite of the RCC grip on it.

And I completely sympathize with you about people's ignorance. It is indeed important to know all the errors that led up to Luther's reforms, limited as they were.
Before more of your fan club here start licking your bootstraps, you may want to look at what you posted and correct yourself. I am quite sure you don't follow Luther's reforms, or even those of his contemporaries right after. Because then you would know that Luther venerated Mary himself.

As far as the Church keeping Scripture, the arguement that is happening in this thread is exactly why they we're against translations being thrown about everywhere. What was the used definition and interpretation, is now argued about like crazy. No wonder there is so many denominations eh? "Everyone" has their own "interpretation" now since they all have their own set of Scripture, no matter how poorly translated, paraphrased, watered down and butchered it is.
..........................................................................
Yeah, I know Luther venerated Mary. He did a lot of things I don't... and won't.
But how does that I mean I don't follow his rediscovery of the 5 Solas?

...And you're right, again. It IS true that they didn't want us discussing what scripture realy means, but it was more to prevent discovery of their own watering & butchering rather (menoun)than to prevent debate.

I don't know what your real beef about different interpretations realy is anyway, because RCC congregants are some of the most diverse in beliefs of all congregations. The difference is, we don't mask it with an "official unity", a conformity that belies the diversity kept underneath.

Rather than declaring the blessedness of Mary's paps & womb, we should be declaring the blessedness of hearing & obeying God.
Don't you agree?

 

[sunlover1]

Well, that is point really....how do you reject some of the Traditions from the Catholic Church, and not others?

Hi Pam.

It's not odd to hold to some things
and not others.
I can agree with some of your traditions
and disagree with some without being
double minded lol.
Some junk could've crept in there even
while the Apostles were yet alive.
It happened.

The Bible tells us that God gave us
a sound mind, that we have the mind
of Christ, that HE is able to keep us.
and on and on and on....

1 Thessalonians 5:21
1 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

 

[PassthePeace1]

Hi Pam.

It's not odd to hold to some things
and not others.
I can agree with some of your traditions
and disagree with some without being
double minded lol.
Some junk could've crept in there even
while the Apostles were yet alive.
It happened.

The Bible tells us that God gave us
a sound mind, that we have the mind
of Christ, that HE is able to keep us.
and on and on and on....

1 Thessalonians 5:21
1 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

How do you know the traditions, that are uniquely Protestant, are good?

 

[sunlover1]

How do you know the traditions, that are uniquely Protestant, are good?

I don't know what you mean.
Are you referring to Sola Scriptura
for instance?

Because I don't hold to that theology or
any that's not from the Word of God.



No, seriously, what for instance?

Maybe we can communicate better
that way.

sunlover

 

[IamAdopted]

How do you know the traditions, that are uniquely Protestant, are good?

Because they are backed up by Scripture. How can you say the traditions of the cc are Good? Where did these tradtions come from? Where can we go to look for these other than the CC? Where do the Apostles speak of these?

 

[PassthePeace1]

I don't know what you mean.
Are you referring to Sola Scriptura
for instance?

No, not necessarily that...I guess in a sense it could be applied though, I am just speaking about tradition that are uniquely Protestant.

No, seriously, what for instance?

Maybe we can communicate better
that way.

sunlover

It really doesn't matter "what" for me...I was just wondering, in a general sense...how you know that the traditions, you have that are uniquely Protestant...are "good"?

But if you want for example...How do you elect your pastors of your Church?

 

[IamAdopted]

I don't know what tradtions you are talking about being Protestant.. You will have to be more specific if you want an answer..

 

[PassthePeace1]

Because they are backed up by Scripture.

Really? All of your Traditions are back up by Scripture? Are you referring to the ones that are uniquely Protestant? Or the ones, from Catholicism...that the reformers didn't reject?

How can you say the traditions of the cc are Good?

Because, the Church...by the power of the Holy Spirit, has faithfully preserved Sacred Tradition...for 2000 years. The bible it's self, being an important one, that the Church has preserved, thru the ages.

Where did these tradtions come from? Where can we go to look for these other than the CC? Where do the Apostles speak of these?

From the Deposit of Faith, left to us by the Apostles, who recieved the Truth from Jesus, along with the authority to protect, both written and oral Traditions.

Peace be with you...Pam

 

[Rick Otto]

We need to know what you mean, in order to be specific.
You using ambiguous terms as though they are concrete realities.
What exactly is "the deposit of faith"? Did it include a rosary & incense? Stattuettes for kissing?

 

[IamAdopted]

Really? All of your Traditions are back up by Scripture? Are you referring to the ones that are uniquely Protestant? Or the ones, from Catholicism...that the reformers didn't reject

I came in after the reformers.. When I came to Christ I dug into my bible to read all that God had to say.

Because, the Church...by the power of the Holy Spirit, has faithfully preserved Sacred Tradition...for 2000 years. The bible it's self, being an important one, that the Church has preserved, thru the ages.

Where did these sacred traditions come from? I don't see them in scripture anywhere.. The bible is not a tradition. It is the very word of God. God alone preserved His word.. Scripture and letters were all ready written.

From the Deposit of Faith, left to us by the Apostles, who recieved the Truth from Jesus, along with the authority to protect, both written and oral Traditions.

Deposit of Faith? Whom deposited this faith? How do we know what the oral traditions were that were spoken since there is no record of them anywhere? With no record of these traditions and some that came in way after 300 AD I question these. For most of them are in contrarty to scripture..

 

[repentant]

Exactly.
My granny had her first baby that passed
away.
Never met that 'aunt'.
When people asked her how many
kids she had, she always said 7, not
8 which would have included that one.

My mother, when asked, said she had
5 brothers and 1 sister, not 2.

I answered other things in the thread I started about this, but you are the only one that answered liked this, so I will respond to it here..

That is because people only take into account those that are living (unless they are old, and their siblings passed away in old age). My aunt had a baby that died, when you ask my cousins how many siblings they have, they will say 1 brother (or 1 sister depending on who you ask). But if you were to ask how many children did your mother have, the answer would be 3 not 2. My aunt had 3 children, just because one died, does not mean she only had 2. If they answered 2, that would be a lie.

Usually when someone asks a parent how many kids they have, they will number only those who are alive, unless like I said they were a little older, in which case they would say, "I had 3 but one died". Now if one dies at birth or at a real young age like days after birth, and 20 years later someone asks how many kids she has, she would probably only say those that she has right now. But ask how many she gave birth to, she would have to include that one that died as well.

So therefore if it was truly about Solomon, to say that he was his mother's only child, would be a lie. He wasn't. His mother had a child before him. Now he could have said, "raised as an only child", and that would be correct. but to say itherwise, and deny his mother having other children would be wrong and a lie.

 

[sunlover1]

I answered other things in the thread I started about this, but you are the only one that answered liked this, so I will respond to it here..

That is because people only take into account those that are living (unless they are old, and their siblings passed away in old age). My aunt had a baby that died, when you ask my cousins how many siblings they have, they will say 1 brother (or 1 sister depending on who you ask). But if you were to ask how many children did your mother have, the answer would be 3 not 2. My aunt had 3 children, just because one died, does not mean she only had 2. If they answered 2, that would be a lie.

Usually when someone asks a parent how many kids they have, they will number only those who are alive, unless like I said they were a little older, in which case they would say, "I had 3 but one died". Now if one dies at birth or at a real young age like days after birth, and 20 years later someone asks how many kids she has, she would probably only say those that she has right now. But ask how many she gave birth to, she would have to include that one that died as well.

So therefore if it was truly about Solomon, to say that he was his mother's only child, would be a lie. He wasn't. His mother had a child before him. Now he could have said, "raised as an only child", and that would be correct. but to say itherwise, and deny his mother having other children would be wrong and a lie.

Sorry Repentant, I misunderstood.
Disregard my post.

 

[repentant]

Deposit of Faith? Whom deposited this faith? How do we know what the oral traditions were that were spoken since there is no record of them anywhere? With no record of these traditions and some that came in way after 300 AD I question these. For most of them are in contrarty to scripture..

Christ and His Apostles deposited the faith..

the oral Traditions are written, it is just that people choose to ignore them.

No Traditions came after 300 AD, this is just when they came into question. Doctrines had to be established because of heresy. The Traditions that you say were established after 300 AD were already there, and were just a belief held by the people of the Church as they were taught through the 2 centuries. Then we have these people who create these heresies, so therefore Councils had to be established to affirm these Traditions, and denounce the heresies, and creating Doctrine.

For instance, the Doctrine of the Theotokos had to be established in the 3rd Ecumenical Council of Ephesus in 431 because of the heresy of Nestor and his claims about Jesus and that Mary only gave birth to Jesus the Man, not Jesus the God, thereby splitting Jesus into 2 parts as opposed to being fully God and fully Man in one person. So the talked about this in Council, they denied Nestor's heresy, and established that Mary gave birth to Jesus the God and Jesus the Man, in one person. This belief was already held well before 431, and also the term Theotokos was already in use prior to this as well. Also the term Theotokos is not for Mary, or devotion to her, but to Christ in saying that He is God. So by the looks of it, it may seem the the Doctrine and Tradition of calling Mary Theotokos came about in the 5th century, but this is not the case. This is just when they had to condemn a heresy by making what was already believed and said, a Doctrine. This applies to everything as well that may seem to have started after the 3rd century..

 

[Rhamiel]

IamAddopted "How can you say the traditions of the cc are Good? Where did these tradtions come from?"
They come from God

 

[PassthePeace1]

We need to know what you mean, in order to be specific

.

I said just what I meant....I was speaking in a general sense, and didn't have any Protestant traditions in mind, other than the distinction of those unique to Protestantism, from those that had a Catholic origin, that wasn't rejected by the reformers.

When pressed, I did ask...."How are your pastors elected?" I just got back home, so I need to check, but I don't think that has been addressed yet.

You using ambiguous terms as though they are concrete realities.

I am not being ambiguous, it is a reality...that the reformers held to some traditions, while rejecting others.

What exactly is "the deposit of faith"? Did it include a rosary & incense? Stattuettes for kissing?

It is the teaching of Christ and the Apostles.