Condoning sin vs. forgiving sin

[lioninoil]

Who died and made you God to decide what is and isn't a sin?

GOD SAID that homosexuality is a sin, I believe homosexuality is a sin and THAT'S THAT.

If you don't like what God says, talk to Him about it.

 

[lioninoil]

No he doesn't. Some people interpret the bible to imply that homosexuality is a sin, but putting your interpetation on a par with God sounds pretty dodgy to me too.

The plain meaning of Scripture is that homosexuality is a sin; that entire cities were wiped off the face of the earth for the sin of homosexuality (Gen. 19); that homosexuality is an abomination before God; and that no homosexual SHALL EVER inherit the kingdom of God (Romans 1:26-32, 1 Cor. 6:9-10). Anything other "interpretation" is playing word games.

I think almost all people, even homosexuals, know in their heart that their homosexuality is a grievous sin which is utterly detested by God.

I've yet to meet any Christians who claim to disagree with God.

I, too, used to be a liberal, but when I became a Christian I experienced the love of the Lord and with that a complete change of heart and with that, my eyes have been opened and I know what is right and wrong. God will never fail to lead us when we sincerely ask Him.

 

[127Rockledge]

lion - Christianity is not a political party.

Liberal nor Conservative Christians need to define themselves by political parties.

I do not claim to be either by politics or doctrine.

 

[vossler]

Maybe I am a little confused here. Do you 2 even find issue with EXACTLY what Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians? Not the translation, the straight greek has been presented, and you talk about interpretation. Is there a need to interpret "Thou shalt not kill"? If not, then why do you need to interpret that sodomites are sinners?

You're not confused. Unfortunately whenever one's personal thoughts and feelings conflict with God's Word, no matter how plain the writing, it almost always becomes an 'interpretation' issue. It's no different than other sins. Human nature will do whatever it can to justify itself for whatever behavior we submit ourselves to. Like I said earlier, my job isn't to convince those whose hearts are already hardened to the truth, but to keep proclaiming it regardless of the response. I'll let the Holy Spirit take care of the rest.

 

[127Rockledge]

I'm not homosexual, never have been. So the argument of justifying one's own activities does not fly.

It makes no difference to me if homosexuality is a sin or is not, I just do not see the "clear and concise" evidence in scripture that you do.

 

[ebia]

Your so called context doesnt hold water either. Because there is plenty of poeple that have beautiful loving out of wedlock relationships, but that is still sin.

I note that you chose to include only some of my qualifiers. If you chose them all, (including any that are implicit but I left out to keep the typing reasonable) then you have got marriage.

As for your translation issue. Well here you go, heres the greek.




[SIZE=+1]Seems all pretty direct to me.[/SIZE]

Because you are relying on your interpretation of those translator's interpretation. Strongs is not part of scripture you know.

But let's assume for the moment that strongs guessed well with "abusers of themselves with mankind". Note the word 'abusers' - abusive sex (which is what is being addressed here) is sinful. The passage does not comment on non-abusive sex. The only reason you decide to apply it to all homosexual sex is because you have pre-decided that all homosexual sex is abusive before you even look at the text.

Maybe I am a little confused here. Do you 2 even find issue with EXACTLY what Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians? Not the translation, the straight greek has been presented, and you talk about interpretation. Is there a need to interpret "Thou shalt not kill"? If not, then why do you need to interpret that sodomites are sinners?

Paul didn't use the word sodomites. If he had, that would be interesting because we would have to understand what he understood the sin of Sodom to be, and I rather suspect he Paul wouldn't have fallen into the trap of ignoring what Ezekiel said it was.

 

[ebia]

GOD SAID that homosexuality is a sin, I believe homosexuality is a sin and THAT'S THAT.

It would be if he had, but he hasn't (at least not in the bible).

If you don't like what God says, talk to Him about it.

I don't have a problem with what God has actually said, only with your interpretation of it.

The plain meaning of Scripture is that homosexuality is a sin;

You can assert this all you like, but it simply isn't true.

that entire cities were wiped off the face of the earth for the sin of homosexuality (Gen. 19);

Wrong - see Ezekiel.

that homosexuality is an abomination before God;

taken out of context. The context of a Law that also says eating shellfish, trimming your beard, and wearing polycotton is sinful. Taken out of the context of the injunction "don't do as the Egyptians do" (ie religous sexual acts). Removed from the context in the sense that the word translated 'abomination' refers to ritual sins, not sexual ones...

And, of course, it doesn't use the word homosexual.

and that no homosexual SHALL EVER inherit the kingdom of God (Romans 1:26-32, 1 Cor. 6:9-10).

Very similar to above. Firstly, the word homosexual does not appear. The word he coined could mean any number of things but possibly harks back to Leviticus and almost certainly points to similar ritual and abusive sexual acts because he is addressing problems happening in those communities and that is the sort of thing that would be happening. He isn't talking about anything remotely similar to homosexual marriage because such didn't exist.

Anything other "interpretation" is playing word games.

Interpretation is about trying to understand words. If you call it 'word games' points to a lack of interest in understanding what the text actually is intended to say.

 

[127Rockledge]

Posted from another thread in regards to misinterpretation of Greek words in Corinthians:

The ambiguous term "arsenokoitai:"
The original Greek word "arsenokoitai" was apparently created by Paul when he wrote 1 Corinthians. The author of 1 Timothy used the same term. 3 It comes from the Greek words "arseno" which means "male," and "koitai" which means "beds." The latter was a common euphemism for a person who has sex. So, arsenokoitai is a "male-bedder."
The word is often translated in English versions of the Bible as "homosexual." That is, a men or women who are sexually attracted only to persons of the same sex. Some theologians are fairly certain that this is not the meaning that Paul wanted to convey, since the idea of sexual orientation only surfaced in the 19th century after human sexuality started to be scientifically studied.
Other versions of the Bible translate "arsenokoitai" by a phrase that describes sexual activity between males. The King James Version translates it as "them that defile themselves with mankind." Again, it is unlikely that the author(s) intended that behavior. The author(s) would have used the Greek word "paiderasste" -- the standard term at the time for males who had sex with other males.
Instead Paul used this made-up word which is not found in other Greek literature of the time. Other theologians are quite positive that Paul was condemning same-sex sexual behavior by men, and perhaps even by women.

 

[127Rockledge]

Alternative Interpretations -

One interpretation: the customer of a male prostitute:

Justin Cannon has provided an interesting analysis of the text. 1 He describes verse 9 and 10 as being made up of pairs or triads of related groups of people:
[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]The lawless & disobedient: two near synonyms [/FONT]
[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]The ungodly & sinners: also two near synonyms[/FONT]
[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]The unholy & profane: two synonyms[/FONT]
[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]The murderers of fathers & murderers of mothers & manslayers: three kinds of murderers[/FONT]
[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Whoremongers & "arsenokoitai" & menstealers[/FONT]
[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Liars & perjurers etc.: again, two near synonyms.[/FONT]
[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica][/FONT]
[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]From the repeated pairs or triads made up of synonyms or near synonyms, one might expect that whoremongers, "malakoi arsenokoitai" and meanstealers are interconnected with a common theme. [/FONT]
[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica][/FONT]
[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]In the original Greek, the first of the three words is "pornoi." An online Greek lexicon 9 notes that this is Strong's Number 4205, and was derived from the Greek word "pernemi" which means to sell. Its meanings are:[/FONT] -[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]A man who prostitutes his body to another's lust for hire.[/FONT]-[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]A male prostitute.[/FONT]-[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]A man who indulges in unlawful sexual intercourse, a fornicator.[/FONT][FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]The second term is "arsenokoitai" which has not been given a Strong Number because it is a made-up word not found in the Greek language other than in the Bible at 1 Timothy and 1 Corinthians.[/FONT][FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]-The last of the three words is "andrapodistes," the stem of the word andrapodistai. It is Strong's Number 405 which means:[/FONT] - [FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]A slave-dealer, kidnapper, man-stealer -- one who unjustly reduces free men to slavery or who steals the slaves of others and sells them. [/FONT]
[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica][/FONT]
[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]If we assume that the three words are linked together, as the other five groups are, then we have to look for some sense in which the words refer to a common theme. Cannon suggests:[/FONT]
-[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]"pornoi" refers to an enslaved male prostitute.[/FONT]
-[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]"arsenokoitai" refers to a man who sleeps with an enslaved male prostitute[/FONT]
-[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]"andrapodistes" refers to a person who enslaves others. [/FONT]
[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica][/FONT]
[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]The common theme is slavery. Cannon suggests a translation: "It is as if Paul were saying, 'male prostitutes, men who sleep with them, and slave dealers who procure them'." 2 That is, all three words deal with slavery and are unrelated to homosexuality.
[/FONT]

 

[127Rockledge]

Another interpretation -

Another interpretation: a boy sex slave:

An alternative interpretation, following Canon's analysis, could be:

[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]"pornoi" refers to an enslaved male prostitute.[/FONT]

[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]"arsenokoitai" refers to a boy, generally a slave, who is kept by an adult male for sexual purposes.[/FONT]

[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]"andrapodistes" refers to a person who enslaves others. [/FONT][FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]

Again, the common theme is slavery.
Translating "arsenokoitai" as a boy who is kept as a sex slave has some support in at least two Bible translations:
[/FONT]

[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]The New American Bible (NAB), a Roman Catholic translation, translates "arsenokoitai" as "practicing homosexuals." This might suggest any sexually active person with a homosexual orientation. However the translators appear to mean something very different. A footnote links this word to the identical Greek word in 1 Corinthians 6:9 which the NAB translates as "boy prostitute." A footnote says: "The Greek word translated as boy prostitutes designated catamites, i.e. boys or young men who were kept for purposes of prostitution, a practice not uncommon in the Greco-Roman world. The term translated 'practicing homosexuals' refers to adult males who indulged in homosexual practices with such boys."[/FONT]

[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]The Jerusalem Bible translatesthis triad as: "those who are immoral with women or with boys or with men." (Emphasis ours). In 1 Corinthians 6:9 the same word "arsenokoitai" is translated as "catamite."[/FONT][FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]

A possible translation of 1 Timothy 1:10 would be: "...male prostitutes, boys who have sex with men, and slave dealers who enslave them both."
[/FONT]

 

[manchambo]

The plain meaning of Scripture is that homosexuality is a sin; that entire cities were wiped off the face of the earth for the sin of homosexuality (Gen. 19); that homosexuality is an abomination before God; and that no homosexual SHALL EVER inherit the kingdom of God (Romans 1:26-32, 1 Cor. 6:9-10). Anything other "interpretation" is playing word games.

I think almost all people, even homosexuals, know in their heart that their homosexuality is a grievous sin which is utterly detested by God.



I, too, used to be a liberal, but when I became a Christian I experienced the love of the Lord and with that a complete change of heart and with that, my eyes have been opened and I know what is right and wrong. God will never fail to lead us when we sincerely ask Him.

There is more clear Biblical evidence that the bolded statement above is against God's word than there even arguably is that homosexuality is a sin. Do you just ignore the parts of the Bible that say that all sins are equal in God's eyes?

 

[ebia]

I, too, used to be a liberal, but when I became a Christian I experienced the love of the Lord and with that a complete change of heart and with that, my eyes have been opened and I know what is right and wrong. God will never fail to lead us when we sincerely ask Him.

You seem have forgotten that everyone posting in this thread is a Christian.

 

[vossler]

You seem have forgotten that everyone posting in this thread is a Christian.

I would restate that to say that everyone posting in this thread claims to be a Christian. It is highly unlikely that they all are.

 

[GregoryTurner]

Let's see here... Leviticus 18:22
22. Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination. King James
22. `You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination. New King James
22. Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination. American Standard
22. ``Homosexuality is absolutely forbidden, for it is an enormous sin. Living Bible
22. You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination. Revised standard
22. 'You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination. New American Standard
22. You will not have intercourse with a man as you would with a woman. This is a hateful thing. New Jerusalem
22. You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; such a thing is an abomination. New American
22. You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination. New Revised Standard
22. 'And with a male thou dost not lie as one lieth with a woman; abomination it [is]. Young's Bible
22. And thou shalt not lie with mankind as one lieth with a woman: it is an abomination. Darby's Bible
22. Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it [is] abomination. Webster's Bible
22. "Do not practice homosexuality; it is a detestable sin. New Living Translation
22. "Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable." New International Version

 

[GregoryTurner]

Romans 1:26-32
26. For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27. And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28. And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29. Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30. Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31. Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32. Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them. KJV
26. For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature.
27. Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.
28. And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting;
29. being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers,
30. backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31. undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful;
32. who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them. NKJV
26. That is why God let go of them and let them do all these evil things, so that even their women turned against God's natural plan for them and indulged in sex sin with each other.
27. And the men, instead of having a normal sex relationship with women, burned with lust for each other, men doing shameful things with other men and, as a result, getting paid within their own souls with the penalty they so richly deserved.
28. So it was that when they gave God up and would not even acknowledge him, God gave them up to doing everything their evil minds could think of.
29. Their lives became full of every kind of wickedness and sin, of greed and hate, envy, murder, fighting, lying, bitterness, and gossip.
30. They were backbiters, haters of God, insolent, proud braggarts, always thinking of new ways of sinning and continually being disobedient to their parents.
31. They tried to misunderstand, broke their promises, and were heartless--without pity.
32. They were fully aware of God's death penalty for these crimes, yet they went right ahead and did them anyway, and encouraged others to do them, too. Living Bible
26. That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other.
27. And the men, instead of having normal sexual relationships with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men and, as a result, suffered within themselves the penalty they so richly deserved.
28. When they refused to acknowledge God, he abandoned them to their evil minds and let them do things that should never be done.
29. Their lives became full of every kind of wickedness, sin, greed, hate, envy, murder, fighting, deception, malicious behavior, and gossip.
30. They are backstabbers, haters of God, insolent, proud, and boastful. They are forever inventing new ways of sinning and are disobedient to their parents.
31. They refuse to understand, break their promises, and are heartless and unforgiving.
32. They are fully aware of God's death penalty for those who do these things, yet they go right ahead and do them anyway. And, worse yet, they encourage others to do them, too. New Living Translation

 

[GregoryTurner]

I Corinthians 6:9,10
9. Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10. Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. KJV

9. Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites,
10. nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. NKJV

9. Don't you know that those doing such things have no share in the Kingdom of God? Don't fool yourselves. Those who live immoral lives, who are idol worshipers, adulterers or homosexuals--will have no share in his Kingdom. Neither will thieves or greedy people, drunkards, slanderers, or robbers. Living Bible

9. Don't you know that those who do wrong will have no share in the Kingdom of God? Don't fool yourselves. Those who indulge in sexual sin, who are idol worshipers, adulterers, male prostitutes, homosexuals,
10. thieves, greedy people, drunkards, abusers, and swindlers-none of these will have a share in the Kingdom of God. New Living Translation.

 

[GregoryTurner]

That all looks like pretty simple english to me. I am not trying to tell anyone "how" to read their bible nor "interpret" in any way. If anyone can deny any of this I wonder how dusty their bibles really are... Have a happy Jesus day!!!

 

[Proeliator]

Posted from another thread in regards to misinterpretation of Greek words in Corinthians:

The ambiguous term "arsenokoitai:"
The original Greek word "arsenokoitai" was apparently created by Paul when he wrote 1 Corinthians. The author of 1 Timothy used the same term. 3 It comes from the Greek words "arseno" which means "male," and "koitai" which means "beds." The latter was a common euphemism for a person who has sex. So, arsenokoitai is a "male-bedder."
The word is often translated in English versions of the Bible as "homosexual." That is, a men or women who are sexually attracted only to persons of the same sex. Some theologians are fairly certain that this is not the meaning that Paul wanted to convey, since the idea of sexual orientation only surfaced in the 19th century after human sexuality started to be scientifically studied.
Other versions of the Bible translate "arsenokoitai" by a phrase that describes sexual activity between males. The King James Version translates it as "them that defile themselves with mankind." Again, it is unlikely that the author(s) intended that behavior. The author(s) would have used the Greek word "paiderasste" -- the standard term at the time for males who had sex with other males.
Instead Paul used this made-up word which is not found in other Greek literature of the time. Other theologians are quite positive that Paul was condemning same-sex sexual behavior by men, and perhaps even by women.

Are you kidding me?

So lets see what you have said here. "Some theologians". Ok, there are also theologians that believe that Christ came back to america and visited Joseph smith, or some such thing. They would be mormons. But they would still be "Some theologians".

"it is unlikely". Wow. And this is supposed to be a refutation of the condemnation of homosexuality. The proofs you show are utterly lacking in anything substantial. Instead it seeks to discredit Paul's writings by asying he made up words. Wow. Now that really was deep.

"the idea of sexual orientation only surfaced in the 19th century after human sexuality started to be scientifically studied" So then what exactly were they talking about in leviticus? Just because the words homosexual and gay didnt exist, doesnt mean people didnt act on them. Try to at least bring something that has some common sense to it.

 

[lilymarie]

Condoning sin or saying it's okay is a sin in itself. It's called leading others astray. It's the blind leading the blind and they'll both fall into a ditch.

This is not good.

The sins in the Bible and by God are established. Homosexual acts are one of them.

Forgiveness however still exists. Forgiveness from The Lord for your own personal sins; forgiveness from others one personally sins against.

Example, if I get angry at my blood sister and then ask for forgiveness, she forgives me, and vice versa.

Condoning or saying something isn't a sin when it is, is a sin itself. It's a terrible thing happening to the word of God right now.

 

[ebia]

Let's see here... Leviticus 18:22
22. Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination. King James

I refer you to my previous post. Firstly, it doesn't mention homosexuality (the translations that do are not accurate). Secondly, and rather more importantly, you have taken it out of the context of "don't do as the egyptians do...". And finally, you are taking it from a set of laws that Christians don't keep.

Similar applies to the 1 Cor. and Romans.

That all looks like pretty simple english to me.

Yet the bible wasn't written with English. Neither was it written out of context. If it appears simple it's because you are ignoring half the information. If someone ignores the complexities then they shouldn't be surprised if something looks simple; that doesn't mean it is.