Condoning sin vs. forgiving sin

[ebia]

"the idea of sexual orientation only surfaced in the 19th century after human sexuality started to be scientifically studied" So then what exactly were they talking about in leviticus? Just because the words homosexual and gay didnt exist, doesnt mean people didnt act on them.

Both Leviticus and Paul's writings are talking about sex acts - not sexuality. You don't have to be homosexual to have sex with members of the same sex, and given the contexts of Lev and Cor. its rather more likely that what they are addressing is situations (abusive and ritual) when hetrosexual men are having sex with men. In Romans it's quite clear that it is talking about exactly that.

 

[Maccie]

I would restate that to say that everyone posting in this thread claims to be a Christian. It is highly unlikely that they all are.

Vossler, that is a very arrogant statement. How do you know who or who is not a Christian? Why should you doubt anyone's claims? it is for God to judge us.

And I see that an OP about forgiveness and condoning sin has turned into yet another homosexual rant! I thought it would, and I've been proved right!!

Can't you lot talk about anything but sex???

 

[artybloke]

I would restate that to say that everyone posting in this thread claims to be a Christian. It is highly unlikely that they all are.

And why should we take your word that you are?

Not that I don't trust you when you say you are; but isn't deciding on who is in or out God's prerogative not ours?

When you point your finger at anyone there's always three more pointing at you, as my granny used to say.

 

[*Starlight*]

I am since they don't fall into orthodoxy, just because this website labels them a Christian doesn't mean they are one.

orthodox Christians aren't the only Christians. And there is not one single definition of orthodoxy... what's orthodox for you can be unorthodox for someone else.

 

[GregoryTurner]

Both Leviticus and Paul's writings are talking about sex acts - not sexuality. You don't have to be homosexual to have sex with members of the same sex, and given the contexts of Lev and Cor. its rather more likely that what they are addressing is situations (abusive and ritual) when hetrosexual men are having sex with men. In Romans it's quite clear that it is talking about exactly that.

Whether hetero or homo sexual, man with man and woman with woman is not pleasing to God. Period.

 

[GregoryTurner]

I do find it interesting that I Corinthians 6 speaks of the homosexual stuff and then right after that I Corinthians 7 talks about the principles of marriage. Which God intended any form of sexual relation for... marriage.

 

[artybloke]

Why should I take any notice of your interpretation? Who are you to say what the Bible says? Who died and appointed you God?

 

[GregoryTurner]

I do not have an interpretation, I am no one, and I am not appointed God, just a slave of God.

 

[ebia]

Whether hetero or homo sexual, man with man and woman with woman is not pleasing to God. Period.

That is your opinion. It's not, however, what the text says.

 

[GregoryTurner]

1 Corinthians 7
Instruction on Marriage
1. Now about the questions you asked in your letter. Yes, it is good to live a celibate life.
2. But because there is so much sexual immorality, each man should have his own wife, and each woman should have her own husband.
3. The husband should not deprive his wife of sexual intimacy, which is her right as a married woman, nor should the wife deprive her husband.
4. The wife gives authority over her body to her husband, and the husband also gives authority over his body to his wife.
5. So do not deprive each other of sexual relations. The only exception to this rule would be the agreement of both husband and wife to refrain from sexual intimacy for a limited time, so they can give themselves more completely to prayer. Afterward they should come together again so that Satan won't be able to tempt them because of their lack of self-control.
6. This is only my suggestion. It's not meant to be an absolute rule.
7. I wish everyone could get along without marrying, just as I do. But we are not all the same. God gives some the gift of marriage, and to others he gives the gift of singleness.
8. Now I say to those who aren't married and to widows-it's better to stay unmarried, just as I am.
9. But if they can't control themselves, they should go ahead and marry. It's better to marry than to burn with lust.
10. Now, for those who are married I have a command that comes not from me, but from the Lord.* A wife must not leave her husband.
11. But if she does leave him, let her remain single or else go back to him. And the husband must not leave his wife.
12. Now, I will speak to the rest of you, though I do not have a direct command from the Lord. If a Christian man* has a wife who is an unbeliever and she is willing to continue living with him, he must not leave her.
13. And if a Christian woman has a husband who is an unbeliever, and he is willing to continue living with her, she must not leave him.
14. For the Christian wife brings holiness to her marriage, and the Christian husband brings holiness to his marriage. Otherwise, your children would not have a godly influence, but now they are set apart for him.
15. (But if the husband or wife who isn't a Christian insists on leaving, let them go. In such cases the Christian husband or wife is not required to stay with them, for God wants his children to live in peace.)
16. You wives must remember that your husbands might be converted because of you. And you husbands must remember that your wives might be converted because of you.
17. You must accept whatever situation the Lord has put you in, and continue on as you were when God first called you. This is my rule for all the churches.
18. For instance, a man who was circumcised before he became a believer should not try to reverse it. And the man who was uncircumcised when he became a believer should not be circumcised now.
19. For it makes no difference whether or not a man has been circumcised. The important thing is to keep God's commandments.
20. You should continue on as you were when God called you.
21. Are you a slave? Don't let that worry you-but if you get a chance to be free, take it.
22. And remember, if you were a slave when the Lord called you, the Lord has now set you free from the awful power of sin. And if you were free when the Lord called you, you are now a slave of Christ.
23. God purchased you at a high price. Don't be enslaved by the world.*
24. So, dear brothers and sisters,* whatever situation you were in when you became a believer, stay there in your new relationship with God.
25. Now, about the young women who are not yet married. I do not have a command from the Lord for them. But the Lord in his kindness has given me wisdom that can be trusted, and I will share it with you.
26. Because of the present crisis,* I think it is best to remain just as you are.
27. If you have a wife, do not end the marriage. If you do not have a wife, do not get married.
28. But if you do get married, it is not a sin. And if a young woman gets married, it is not a sin. However, I am trying to spare you the extra problems that come with marriage.
29. Now let me say this, dear brothers and sisters: The time that remains is very short, so husbands should not let marriage be their major concern.
30. Happiness or sadness or wealth should not keep anyone from doing God's work.
31. Those in frequent contact with the things of the world should make good use of them without becoming attached to them, for this world and all it contains will pass away.
32. In everything you do, I want you to be free from the concerns of this life. An unmarried man can spend his time doing the Lord's work and thinking how to please him.
33. But a married man can't do that so well. He has to think about his earthly responsibilities and how to please his wife.
34. His interests are divided. In the same way, a woman who is no longer married or has never been married can be more devoted to the Lord in body and in spirit, while the married woman must be concerned about her earthly responsibilities and how to please her husband.
35. I am saying this for your benefit, not to place restrictions on you. I want you to do whatever will help you serve the Lord best, with as few distractions as possible.
36. But if a man thinks he ought to marry his fiancée because he has trouble controlling his passions and time is passing, it is all right; it is not a sin. Let them marry.
37. But if he has decided firmly not to marry and there is no urgency and he can control his passion, he does well not to marry.
38. So the person who marries does well, and the person who doesn't marry does even better.
39. A wife is married to her husband as long as he lives. If her husband dies, she is free to marry whomever she wishes, but this must be a marriage acceptable to the Lord.*
40. But in my opinion it will be better for her if she doesn't marry again, and I think I am giving you counsel from God's Spirit when I say this.

 

[GregoryTurner]

That is your opinion. It's not, however, what the text says.

Avoiding Sexual Sin
9. Don't you know that those who do wrong will have no share in the Kingdom of God? Don't fool yourselves. Those who indulge in sexual sin, who are idol worshipers, adulterers, male prostitutes, homosexuals,
10. thieves, greedy people, drunkards, abusers, and swindlers-none of these will have a share in the Kingdom of God.
11. There was a time when some of you were just like that, but now your sins have been washed away,* and you have been set apart for God. You have been made right with God because of what the Lord Jesus Christ and the Spirit of our God have done for you.
12. You may say, "I am allowed to do anything." But I reply, "Not everything is good for you." And even though "I am allowed to do anything," I must not become a slave to anything.
13. You say, "Food is for the stomach, and the stomach is for food." This is true, though someday God will do away with both of them. But our bodies were not made for sexual immorality. They were made for the Lord, and the Lord cares about our bodies.
14. And God will raise our bodies from the dead by his marvelous power, just as he raised our Lord from the dead.
15. Don't you realize that your bodies are actually parts of Christ? Should a man take his body, which belongs to Christ, and join it to a prostitute? Never!
16. And don't you know that if a man joins himself to a prostitute, he becomes one body with her? For the Scriptures say, "The two are united into one."*
17. But the person who is joined to the Lord becomes one spirit with him.
18. Run away from sexual sin! No other sin so clearly affects the body as this one does. For sexual immorality is a sin against your own body.
19. Or don't you know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit, who lives in you and was given to you by God? You do not belong to yourself,
20. for God bought you with a high price. So you must honor God with your body.

I have no opinion.

 

[GregoryTurner]

Oh, sorry that is I Corinthians 6:9-20...

 

[artybloke]

I do not have an interpretation

Not to put too fine a point on it, bull-dust. I see you spend the next few posts posting passages from an English Bible. You are aware, aren't you that all translation from one language to another involves interpretation? There is no such thing as an interpretationless translation. The Bible was written in Greek - a very particular kind of Greek that isn't spoken nowadays and which we don't know everything about.

Also, of course, you seem to expect me to believe that unlike everyone else in the whole universe, only those who interpret the Bible in your fashion do it entirely without presuppositions and without any expectancy of finding what you actually do find.

Sorry, but once again, bull-dust. No-one can read even a set of instructions for putting up shelves without some kind of interpretation going on.

Once again, who died and made you infallible?

 

[ebia]

I do not have an interpretation, I am no one, and I am not appointed God, just a slave of God.

Anytime you give meaning to a text you are interpreting it.

 

[GregoryTurner]

Oh ok. Then give your interpretation as to what I Corinthians 6 and 7 are saying.

 

[GregoryTurner]

I am saddened by all of this. No respect for God's Word deeply saddens me.

 

[artybloke]

No respect for God's Word deeply saddens me

Ahhh diddums! So we don't all roll over and agree with your Pharasaical interpretations of a few verses ripped violently out of context do we?

Diddums.

 

[Proeliator]

Not to put too fine a point on it, bull-dust. I see you spend the next few posts posting passages from an English Bible. You are aware, aren't you that all translation from one language to another involves interpretation? There is no such thing as an interpretationless translation. The Bible was written in Greek - a very particular kind of Greek that isn't spoken nowadays and which we don't know everything about.

Also, of course, you seem to expect me to believe that unlike everyone else in the whole universe, only those who interpret the Bible in your fashion do it entirely without presuppositions and without any expectancy of finding what you actually do find.

Sorry, but once again, bull-dust. No-one can read even a set of instructions for putting up shelves without some kind of interpretation going on.

Once again, who died and made you infallible?

I'll ask you again, the same question you never answered. If you feel that the Bible is mis-translated in certain spots, then how can you trust its translation in other spots? You can't pick and choose what parts you do and dont think are translated right. Either God protects His scripture, or He doesnt. And if you believe He doesnt, how do you really know what to believe?

 

[Maccie]

I'll ask you again, the same question you never answered. If you feel that the Bible is mis-translated in certain spots, then how can you trust its translation in other spots? You can't pick and choose what parts you do and dont think are translated right. Either God protects His scripture, or He doesnt. And if you believe He doesnt, how do you really know what to believe?

I know you asked artybloke this question, but seeing I am of the same opinion as him, I would say that we are not talking about mistranslation.

Mistranslation means that we have the original text before us, and are disputing the translation of one word or sentence.

But we do not have the original text before us. No one has. We have translations of the original text by people who have gone before us. So we are translating from another persons translation.

Scholars who have studied ancient Greek and
Latin, Hebrew and Aramaic give their best opinions as to what is meant in the Bible. As more information comes to light, and ancient manuscripts are discovered, for example the Dead Sea Scrolls, then translation may become clearer.

But as artybloke said, the Gospels and the Epistles were written in a form of Greek that we know little about and which is not spoken now. It was the Greek of the common people. Probably the Ancient Greeks would be turning in their graves if they read the Greek I am talking about!

So what we see as English translation is only the best opinion of those who translated it. That is why we have various translations of the Bible. Mostly, of course, they difffer only very slightly. But we must be aware that what we read is an interpretation of an interpretation of what was originally written.

Unfortunately God did not boom out from the sky and dictate the Bible! So it is foolish to treat it as though he did.

 

[Proeliator]

I know you asked artybloke this question, but seeing I am of the same opinion as him, I would say that we are not talking about mistranslation.

Mistranslation means that we have the original text before us, and are disputing the translation of one word or sentence.

But we do not have the original text before us. No one has. We have translations of the original text by people who have gone before us. So we are translating from another persons translation.

Scholars who have studied ancient Greek and
Latin, Hebrew and Aramaic give their best opinions as to what is meant in the Bible. As more information comes to light, and ancient manuscripts are discovered, for example the Dead Sea Scrolls, then translation may become clearer.

But as artybloke said, the Gospels and the Epistles were written in a form of Greek that we know little about and which is not spoken now. It was the Greek of the common people. Probably the Ancient Greeks would be turning in their graves if they read the Greek I am talking about!

So what we see as English translation is only the best opinion of those who translated it. That is why we have various translations of the Bible. Mostly, of course, they difffer only very slightly. But we must be aware that what we read is an interpretation of an interpretation of what was originally written.

Unfortunately God did not boom out from the sky and dictate the Bible! So it is foolish to treat it as though he did.

But that still doesn't answer the question. How do you know what to and not to believe then, if you don't think that God watched over His scripture? By your logic, someone making the first copy could have completely destroyed what was meant. Many of the Gospels don't contain the same material. If someone mis-copied part of the Gospels, we could have huge, glaring untruth about things Christ may or may not have done. Do you only believe those things that are corroborated in scripture? Just how do you know?