The law attracts the devil while grace repels him

[SabbathBlessings]

. Also as I recall SDAs don't believe people alive have a soul, but they make exceptions for Moses and Elijah. Do I recall correctly?

Not sure where you got that from, without a soul one wouldn't be alive. I guess people believe what they want

 

[SabbathBlessings]

And the WTBTS also fancy themselves as comparable to the messengers and prophets in 2 Chr 35:15, incidentally. False messengers and prophets shouldn’t be taken seriously.

I agree, we shouldn't. take false teachings seriously. We were warned what would happen after the death of the disciples Acts 20:29

Why a true prophet will never lead anyone away from God's Word or His law, that is through the other voice in the garden, teaching the opposite of what God said, God's Word endures forever 1 Peter 1:25 its settled in heaven Psalm 119:89

Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

Who has the Greatest Testimony? God.

Isa 31:18 And when He had made an end of speaking with him on Mount Sinai, He gave Moses two tablets of the Testimony, tablets of stone, written with the finger of God.

​

We can follow man-made traditions or follow what God said. Jesus told us to live what God said, its our only safeguard to this wicked world and the deception of the devil who deceives the whole world, changing God's times and laws, just as we were warned Dan 7:25

Mat 4:4 But He answered and said, “It is written, ‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.’ ”

Exo 20:1 And God spoke all these words, saying:

8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

Written by God, spoken by God, His personal Testimony. Words He said He would not alter Psa 89:34 not a jot or tittle Mat 5:18-19 because no one, is above the God of the Bible.

Mat 7:13 “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. 14 Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.

Follow the Lamb! He will only lead us on the narrow path back to reconciliation Rev 22:14, don't let anyone deceive us that God's Word can be altered to suit our own needs and desires. Whoever we obey is who we serve Rom 6:16 I say we serve the God of the Bible living by His every Word, not mans. The Sabbath is a sign of our loyalty to God Eze 20:20 the Sabbath contains His seal Exo 20:11 only He can break and He promised not to. Psa 89:34 Isa 56:1-6 Isa 8:16 Isa 66:23

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I wouldn’t tend to give much praise to anyone who’d presume to know and dictate how the early church should’ve lived out “the new way of the Spirit, and not the old way of the written code”.

Does the new way allow for worshipping other gods, bowing to false images, using the name of the Lord thy God in vain, murder, coveting, stealing, not honoring our parents, committing adultery- is this the new way you refer to? That we can now be sinners and break these laws? Why would anyone pluck out the Sabbath, the one God said to Remember and is holy and blessed by God as if this one is the only commandment that is changed "by the new way" its inconsistent and as it shows our will, not God's will Psa 40:8, which He plainly wrote and its leading people on the wrong path. Mat 15:3-14 Mat 5:19-30 Mat 7:21-23 Isa 8:20

The Spirit and God's law work in harmony, not against.

The Holy Spirit is who wrote the Ten Commandments on stone Luke 11:20 Mat 12:28 Exo 31:18

Then the Holy Spirit wrote Gods laws in our heart and mind Heb 8:10 because keeping them is mans all Ecc 12:13-14 Rev 22:14

The Holy Spirit is the one who enables us to keep His commandments through our willingness and love to Jesus

John 14:15 “If you love Me, keep My commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another [e]Helper, that He may abide with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.

Why all of God's commandments are Truth Psa 119:151- Gods Truth, not ours which is not saving or sanctifying Isa 66:17 we are only sanctified by God through His Truth John 17:17 and keeping the Sabbath is a sign of His sanctification Eze 20:12

 

[fhansen]

Does the new way allow for worshipping other gods, bowing to false images, using the name of the Lord thy God in vain, murder, coveting, stealing, not honoring our parents, committing adultery- is this the new way you refer to? That we can now be sinners and break these laws?

No, the new way, life in and by the Spirit, would guarantee that we don't break those even if we never heard them. It means that one can and must love now; any act that's inconsistent with or opposed to love is sin. And so I can refrain from "worshipping other gods, bowing to false images, using the name of the Lord thy God in vain, murder, coveting, stealing, not honoring our parents, committing adultery" and still sin if my heart isn't right, if I'm not clean on the inside. IOW, if I fail to observe the greatest commandments, I fail to fulfill the ten in truth.

Now, focusing on the first 3 or 4 commandments, if I know and love the true God then I naturally won't have any other gods before Him, I won't make and worship some graven image, I won't take His name in vain, and I'll set aside a time to focus strictly on Him and the importance of that relationship while honoring Him by resting from work: from placing material gain above all else, which also shows care for and mercy to myself and others and all creation.

Can this be done in a new way, not by refraining from the obligation and desire but, in this case, observing it on a different day? Did the early observers of this Lord’s Day practice presumably not love God? Or were they loving Him with a new perspective given them on what He actually desires for and from of us and how we’re to fulfill that? Were they honoring the new covenant with a new way of regarding such things as days and Sabbaths (Rom 14:5-6, Col 2:16), convinced in their own minds that this new day was more special due to its significance surrounding the Resurrection and the whole new life this means for humankind? The answer, from history and the actual practice of Christ’s church is, “yes”. That’s what they received; that’s what Christians, no longer bound to the Letter, do.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

No, the new way, life in and by the Spirit, would guarantee that we don't break those even if we never heard them. It means that one can and must love now; any act that's inconsistent with or opposed to love is sin. And so I can refrain from "worshipping other gods, bowing to false images, using the name of the Lord thy God in vain, murder, coveting, stealing, not honoring our parents, committing adultery" and still sin if my heart isn't right, if I'm not clean on the inside. IOW, if I fail to observe the greatest commandments, I fail to fulfill the ten in truth.

The Ten Commandments is the greatest commandments summarized. Rom 13:9 Deut 5-6 God never left undefined what is love to God or love to our fellow man. Love is keeping God's commandments, His version, not what we feel is right or wrong 1 John 5:2-3 Love is the motivating factor to keep the commandments - if we have love in our heart, we would not hurt our neighbor and the commandments would be kept, if we love God, we would not do anything to profane Him, including keeping the Sabbath the way He said Eze 22:26 love does no harm to God or to man, why love fulfills the law because if we love, we are not harming man or God. The law gives us a measure on how we are to love God and man, a good way to test ourselves to see if we are in the faith, those with faith uphold the law. No one fulfills the Ten by not keeping them or making edits to them, when God said not to. Deut 4:2 Mat 5:18 Psa 89:34

Can this be done in a new way, not by refraining from the obligation and desire but, in this case, observing it on a different day? Did the early observers of this Lord’s Day practice presumably not love God? Or were they loving Him with a new perspective given them on what He actually desires for and from of us and how we’re to fulfill that? Were they honoring the new covenant with a new way of regarding such things as days and Sabbaths (Rom 14:5-6, Col 2:16), convinced in their own minds that this new day was more special due to its significance surrounding the Resurrection and the whole new life this means for humankind? The answer, from history and the actual practice of Christ’s church is, “yes”. That’s what they received; that’s what Christians do, no longer bound to the Letter.

Paul does not have the authority to undermine Jesus, nor would he. Many people use his writings out of context such as Rom 14 which is about mans opinions, what man esteems, not what God esteemed Exo 20:8-11 Isa 58:13 Isa 66:23 hence why the Sabbath is not even mentioned once in this whole chapter and we know what God says about adding what's not there Pro 30:5-6

To try to connect the weekly Sabbath to Col 2:14-17 is essentially saying God was against man from Creation because thats when the weekly Sabbath started. Exo 20:11 Gen 2:1-3 This essentially is an attack on the character of God. Jesus said the Sabbath was made for man, the Hebrew word of man here means Adam, the Greek, mankind. Man was made before the first Sabbath that God kept, man was made in God’s image and likeness. The Sabbath points us back to the God of Creation Exo 20:11 God’s Sabbath was meant to bless Isa 56:2 and sanctify Eze 20:12 and a sign between God and man Eze 20:20 and is the holy day of the Lord thy God, thus saith the Lord Isa 58:13


There is more than one Sabbath in the scriptures, and there is a warning in scripture about Paul's writings, so we need to study his writings very carefully and make sure we are not using them to teach against what Jesus taught because if we miss what he is trying to say, it comes with some steep warnings, we should take serious.

2 Peter 3:15 and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, 16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.


So lets examine Col 2:16-17.

The context starts before this so lets bring it in so we can try to figure what Paul is saying here and is he teaching something different than Jesus taught, or is there more to the story than the single verse everyone uses.


Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

So we know from these verses Paul is referring to the following

1. something handwritten
2. ordinances
3. was contrary and against
4. nailed to the cross

So is this referring to any of the Ten Commandments?

1. Was the Ten Commandments handwritten?
No: Exo 31:18 And when He had made an end of speaking with him on Mount Sinai, He gave Moses two tablets of the Testimony, tablets of stone, written with the finger of God.

2. Was the Ten Commandments called ordinances?
NO: God said: 6 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

3. Was the Sabbath contrary and against?
NO: Holy and blessed by God is not the definition of contrary and against
Exo 20:11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.
Gen 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth, and all the host of them, were finished. 2 And on the seventh day God ended His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.

4. Was the Sabbath nailed to the Cross?
No! Jesus in His own Words taught the Sabbath would be kept by His faithful decades after the Cross and until the second coming of Jesus Christ Mat 24:20 The Sabbath continues in the New Heaven and New Earth for His saints Isa 66:22-23

So what is Paul referring to.

There is more than one sabbath in the scripture and Paul made it so clear what he was referring to never countermanding Christ on what He taught or how He lived and what even Paul taught as he kept every Sabbath faithful as well Acts 15:21 Acts 18:4 etc

Where does Paul get the words "... against us ... contrary to us..." from, in the context of the passages he is quoting from in the Old Testament, and what does it mean there?

Deuteronomy 31:26 KJB - Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.

Deuteronomy 31:28 KJB - Gather unto me all the elders of your tribes, and your officers, that I may speak these words in their ears, and call heaven and earth to record against them.

Deuteronomy 30:19 KJB - I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, [that] I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Paul is referring to what was written in the book of the law handwritten by Moses set outside the ark as witness against. Read Col 2:14KJV as the context fits perfectly

The Ten Commandments finger written by God was placed inside the ark of the covenant and we are blessed when keeping Isa 56:2 Rev 22:14

What were the ordinances


Deuteronomy 31:26 KJB - Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.";
Colossians 2:14 "handwriting of ordinances";

Ephesians 2:15 "the law of commandments contained in ordinances";

Hebrews 9:1 "... also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary.";

Hebrews 9:10 "... meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances ...";

Ezekiel 43:18 "... These are the ordinances of the altar in the day when they shall make it, to offer burnt offerings thereon, and to sprinkle blood thereon."

Luke 1:6 "... walking in all the commandments and ordinances ...";

Numbers 9:12 "They shall leave none of it unto the morning, nor break any bone of it: according to all the ordinances of the passover they shall keep it.";

2 Chronicles 33:8 "... to do all that I have commanded them, according to the whole law and the statutes and the ordinances by the hand of Moses."]

It had to do with all the sacrificial system, animal sacrifices feast days that some were also called sabbath(s) written in the book of the law- that all pointed to Jesus and His great sacrifice - the Lamb that takes away the sins of the world. There is no animal sacrifices in the Ten Commandments

Colossians 2 KJB, parallels Ephesians 2 KJB, and Hebrews 9-10 KJB. The language is the same. The "ordinances" in Colossians 2 deals with "shadows", such as the daily "meat and drink" offerings of a worldly sanctuary and carnal ordinances, the seasonal "feast days", the monthly"new moons", and the year based "sabbaths", in the singular, every 7 and 50th years, as Paul is citing Psalms 98:1-3; and Ezekiel 45:17 KJB with other texts.

The Sabbath of the LORD thy God is always called "My [as in God's] Sabbaths", and the others in Leviticus 23:4 onward are called "your [the peoples] sabbaths" [Leviticus 26:35 KJB] which are "beside [given in addition to] the sabbaths of the LORD" [Leviticus 23:38 KJB]. The Ten Commandments, including the Sabbath of the 4th Commandment, are "light" [Proverbs 6:23, Isaiah 8:20, 51:4 KJB], never a "shadow", are "spiritual" [Romans 7:14 KJB], never "carnal" [Hebrews 9:10 KJB].

Colossians 2:14 - "ordinances"
Ephesians 2:15 - "law of commandments contained in ordinances"
Hebrews 9:1 - "ordinances of divine service"
Hebrews 9:10 - "carnal ordinances"

Colossians 2:16 - "in meat, or in drink" [offerings]
Hebrews 9:10 - "meats and drinks" [offerings]

Colossians 2:12 - "also ye are risen with him"
Ephesians 2:6 - "raised us up together"

Colossians 2:16 - "a shadow of things to come"
Ephesians 2:7 - "in the ages to come"
Hebrews 9:11 - "of good things to come"
Hebrews 10:1 - "the law having a shadow of good things to come", "those sacrifices", "offered year by

The weekly Sabbath can’t be a shadow of anything because it points to Creation when God made everything according to His perfect plan before the fall of mankind.

You can read more about this in detail here COL 2:14-17 The REAL truth from God's Wo

Guess that's why members of your church say this:

Question: Which is the Sabbath day?
Answer: Saturday is the Sabbath day.
Question: Why do we observe Sunday instead of Saturday?
Answer: We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday.
—Rev. Peter Geiermann C.SS.R., The Convert’s Catechism of Catholic Doctrine, p. 50

If Protestants would follow the Bible, they would worship God on the Sabbath Day. In keeping the Sunday they are following a law of the Catholic Church.
—Albert Smith, Chancellor of the Archdiocese of Baltimore, replying for the Cardinal, in a letter dated February 10, 1920.

.. you may read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation, and you will not find a single line authorizing the sanctification of Sunday. The Scriptures enforce the religious observance of Saturday, a day which we never sanctify.
—The Faith of Our Fathers, by James Cardinal Gibbons, Archbishop of Baltimore, 88th edition, page 89. Originally published in 1876, republished and Copyright 1980 by TAN Books and Publishers, Inc., pages 72-73.

 

[fhansen]

Paul does not have the authority to undermine Jesus, nor would he.

Of course not; Jesus is the only true interpeter of the law which is why the church believes the change could've occured only by virtue of His teachings/instruction.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Of course not; Jesus is the only true interpeter of the law which is why the church believes the change could've occured only by virtue of His teachings/instruction.

Yet Jesus said no editing Deut 4:2 Psa 89:34 Mat 5:18-19 but to watch out for those who claim to change His law Dan 7:25 Isa 8:20. Hence why not one verse from Jesus saying we no longer need to keep the Sabbath commandment. He said not to break the least of these commandments or teach others to break Mat 5:19 and in vain we worship Him when keeping our law/tradition over obeying the commandments of God Mark 7:7 Mat 15:3-14

Jesus is the true interpreter of His law, why He wrote it so plainly and so clearly

8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work,
10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God.

Can't be plainer this this. Both written and spoken by the God of the Universe. Amen!

 

[fhansen]

You are giving the SDA's way too much credit. We were not around at Creation when God created the Sabbath as it was always part of God's will and perfect plan and He makes no mistakes, we do. Why it continues for eternity, Isa 66:23 just as God promised.

Exo 20:11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

The Lord is consistent, whenever the world would go away from God, He would raise up a messenger to try to get people back to His word, sadly, usually the result is the same

2 Cor36:15 And the LORD God of their fathers sent warnings to them by His messengers, rising up early and sending them, because He had compassion on His people and on His dwelling place. 16 But they mocked the messengers of God, despised His words, and scoffed at His prophets, until the wrath of the LORD arose against His people, till there was no remedy.

We are getting into the last days, Jesus is calling us out of our false teachings handed down through the centuries that sadly most people follow instead of being faithful to Jesus. Whoever we obey is who we serve Rom 6:16 so we can follow the popular traditions handed down to us, or we can take the narrow path and hear His voice and follow Him and His teachings. God said Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy, the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord thy God Exo 20:8-11 written and spoken so plainly by the God of the Bible that really none of us will have any excuses. Jesus told us to live by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God Mat 4:4 and every time man thought they knew better than what God said, starting from the other voice in the garden, it has never worked out well for anyone. We have a lot of ex-Catholics in our denomination, when they stopped listening to their church tell them what God's words says and started prayerfully studying themselves. Anyway, I guess we will all find out soon enough and once Jesus comes our fates will be sealed Rev 22:11

And yet Deut 22 as well as Leviticus instruct the stoning of adulterers. Did Jesus give us that command? How do you know which part of the law to obey?

 

[SabbathBlessings]

And yet Deut 22 as well as Leviticus instruct the stoning of adulterers. Did Jesus give us that command? How do you know which part of the law to obey?

I believe you might be confusing judgements with commandments. In the OT they were under a theocracy. In the NT, judgement comes the last day John 12:48. The wages of sin 1 John 3:4 (committing adultery, breaking the Sabbath etc) is still death, if not in Christ Rom 6:23. If we have Jesus in our heart, we would not want to profane Him Eze 22:26 and would keep His commandments through faith and love submitting to His will and He enabling us to keep John 14:15-18 John 15:4-10 Sin still separates us from God Isa 59:2, but through our faith and love of Him, He reconciles us Rev 22:14

I think we are at an impasse, no amount of Scripture seems to convince you, and nothing you will say will convince me, so I will leave it as agree to disagree and all gets sorted out soon enough. Be well.

 

[fhansen]

I believe you might be confusing judgements with commandments. In the OT they were under a theocracy. In the NT, judgement comes the last day John 12:48. The wages of sin 1 John 3:4 (committing adultery, breaking the Sabbath etc) is still death, if not in Christ Rom 6:23. If we have Jesus in our heart, we would not want to profane Him Eze 22:26 and would keep His commandments through faith and love submitting to His will and He enabling us to keep John 14:15-18 John 15:4-10 Sin still separates us from God Isa 59:2, but through our faith and love of Him, He reconciles us Rev 22:14

I think we are at an impasse, no amount of Scripture seems to convince you, and nothing you will say will convince me, so I will leave it as agree to disagree and all gets sorted out soon enough. Be well.

Yet in Matt 8 the Jews maintained that the law commanded them to stone an adulteress to death. And as you say the law cannot be added to or taken away from, not a jot or tittle, no word altered that comes from His mouth. Anyway, I've come to appreciate related teachings on this that I'm familiar with:

581 The Jewish people and their spiritual leaders viewed Jesus as a rabbi.340 He often argued within the framework of rabbinical interpretation of the Law.341 Yet Jesus could not help but offend the teachers of the Law, for he was not content to propose his interpretation alongside theirs but taught the people "as one who had authority, and not as their scribes".342 In Jesus, the same Word of God that had resounded on Mount Sinai to give the written Law to Moses, made itself heard anew on the Mount of the Beatitudes.343 Jesus did not abolish the Law but fulfilled it by giving its ultimate interpretation in a divine way: "You have heard that it was said to the men of old. . . But I say to you. . ."344 With this same divine authority, he disavowed certain human traditions of the Pharisees that were "making void the word of God".345

582 Going even further, Jesus perfects the dietary law, so important in Jewish daily life, by revealing its pedagogical meaning through a divine interpretation: "Whatever goes into a man from outside cannot defile him. . . (Thus he declared all foods clean.). . . What comes out of a man is what defiles a man. For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts. . ."346 In presenting with divine authority the definitive interpretation of the Law, Jesus found himself confronted by certain teachers of the Law who did not accept his interpretation of the Law, guaranteed though it was by the divine signs that accompanied it.347 This was the case especially with the sabbath laws, for he recalls, often with rabbinical arguments, that the sabbath rest is not violated by serving God and neighbor,348 which his own healings did.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Yet in Matt 8 the Jews maintained that the law commanded them to stone an adulteress to death. And as you say the law cannot be added to or taken away from, not a jot or tittle, no word altered that comes from His mouth. Anyway, I've come to appreciate related teachings on this that I'm familiar with:

581 The Jewish people and their spiritual leaders viewed Jesus as a rabbi.340 He often argued within the framework of rabbinical interpretation of the Law.341 Yet Jesus could not help but offend the teachers of the Law, for he was not content to propose his interpretation alongside theirs but taught the people "as one who had authority, and not as their scribes".342 In Jesus, the same Word of God that had resounded on Mount Sinai to give the written Law to Moses, made itself heard anew on the Mount of the Beatitudes.343 Jesus did not abolish the Law but fulfilled it by giving its ultimate interpretation in a divine way: "You have heard that it was said to the men of old. . . But I say to you. . ."344 With this same divine authority, he disavowed certain human traditions of the Pharisees that were "making void the word of God".345

582 Going even further, Jesus perfects the dietary law, so important in Jewish daily life, by revealing its pedagogical meaning through a divine interpretation: "Whatever goes into a man from outside cannot defile him. . . (Thus he declared all foods clean.). . . What comes out of a man is what defiles a man. For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts. . ."346 In presenting with divine authority the definitive interpretation of the Law, Jesus found himself confronted by certain teachers of the Law who did not accept his interpretation of the Law, guaranteed though it was by the divine signs that accompanied it.347 This was the case especially with the sabbath laws, for he recalls, often with rabbinical arguments, that the sabbath rest is not violated by serving God and neighbor,348 which his own healings did.

It says the commandments Deut 4:2 stoning one for sinning under God’s orders was judgments. But believe as you wish.

We are told not to add anything to God's Word Pro 30:5-6

 

[fhansen]

It says the commandments Deut 4:2 stoning one for sinning under God’s orders was judgments. But believe as you wish.

Well, I'd prefer to read a verse that might apply- that might confirm that view-and I don't think Deut 4:2 changes anything there by itself either way.

Oops, meant John 8, not Matt 8, in post #50 above.