Your views on illegal immigration...

[Suomipoika]

There may be as many as 20 million illegal immigrants in the US today - more than twice the official Census Bureau estimate, according to Bear Stearns researchers Robert Justich and Betty Ng.

20 million is no small number

http://www.cis.org/articles/2001/mexico/poverty.html

And let's look at this where ILLEGALS have anchor babies and then are below the poverty level.


Nearly 14 million people (including 4.7 million children) live in "mixed status" families - in which the head of the household or the spouse is in the US illegally - Pew reported last summer. This is partly because children born in the US- regardless of their parents' legal status - are automatically US citizens.

Yet another SMALL stat

YOU don't live here and YOU don't really have a view point that matters in the scheme of things when it comes to how WE, as citizens, act.

Yeah, that's not a small number. I should preoccupy myself with some more facts and undertake some re-evaluation.

 

[Suomipoika]

Oh, by the way, it was great to hear Nicky Cruz speak today in the ice hall of Helsinki. There's one man with a really strong desire to bring the love of God to the un-reached gangs of big cities, many of them extremely illegal in more than one sense. Many of you read his 'Cross and the Switchblade' or 'Run baby run' (written by D. Wilkerson)?

 

[mont974x4]

I don't.



Hey, you said something like "we don't owe them anything just based on the fact that they exist". Until that moment I was prepared for a good discussion, but that was.. startling, I guess. It brought to my mind all kind of nazi images and stuff like that. Like taking away the God-given value of a human life. I think it's hypocrite to be only 'technically' pro-life while not caring what kind of life the child faces one's it's born. But yeah yeah yeah, "public health care just sounds ohh so 'socialist', so it must be evil". What if your own child was said "you don't deserve anything simply because you exist". That does appear with a rather cruel and 'cold' overtone in my ears.



Someone who turns to Chirst from a very sinful lifestyle will often be a little 'over-zealous' in the beginning, throwing away all the visible remnants of the past life and cutting ties with some friends from the old life. In the same way, someone who gets their first good meal in a long while can fall into 'extremism' in eating. But in the process, should the person grow in maturity, both 'gluttony' and extremely strict piety will probably moderate. Anyway, certainly not an argumen for the society to not provide people with their most basic needs.



It's most definetily not our responsibility to make sure people have the same amount of wealth. That would be crazy! But the Bible speaks about the society and its responsibility to meet some of the people's most basic needs. Sodom is a 'great' example, the Bible puts blame on the society (the city) for not caring about her poor and needy. Whether it happens through taxation or through voluntary efforts or partly through both of these means, it should nevertheless happen. And like you can see from my statistics, the system where more weight has been put on the public network of social care, the results just happen to speak for themselves. America is closer to some developing countries than to other rich western democracies in many of those statistics.



That verse only compares Sodom to other cities, but Ezekiel 16 speaks of Sodom first and foremost. And yes, sexual immorality is also sinful, of course. But nowhere does the Bible imply that it would be more sinful than ignoring the needs of children born into poverty.

Hey, so do you still claim that the U.S. would be some kind of epitome of "equal opportunity" among the world democracies? Not that I wouldn't find things that are wrong here, too, and also things that are better in America, but reality is reality and those stats surely have something to say.

I've been accused of being a nazi before and a war monger and baby killer. I really don't mind, as such claims and comparison are ignorant and best left where they lie. So, I'll leave you where you lie, as you have proven to simply twist my posts and lie about what I have said. You seem far too intelligent for me to accept it as ignorance so it must be intentional and rather troll-like.

 

[KarrieTex]

Also, remember that the 'nice little world' where I come from is a country with an economic competence pretty much matching that of yours. That's right, and without the cheap oil. Ever heard of Nokia? Heck, Jorma Ollila went to the same elementary with my mom. (And hey, we got the original Santa Claus here, too!) I shouldn't boast on this, but your rhetorics about "a vague dream in the horizon" just don't fully convince me. Sounds more like one of those cartoon movies that have a happy ending and a wise teaching in the plot...


Nokia??? Just Nokia?

I come from a country where Bill Gates didn't even finish school and now controls about 98% of all computer operating systems of the world.

I come from a country where men who had no education grew companies into OIL companies, yeah cheap oil, that supplies this WORLD with oil.

You my dear boy don't impress me much.

 

[Suomipoika]

I've been accused of being a nazi before and a war monger and baby killer. I really don't mind, as such claims and comparison are ignorant and best left where they lie. So, I'll leave you where you lie, as you have proven to simply twist my posts and lie about what I have said. You seem far too intelligent for me to accept it as ignorance so it must be intentional and rather troll-like.

Well, you could try to explain instead what you meant by "we don't owe them anything just based on the fact that they exist". And I mean 'we' in its general meaning - conerning the humanity as God's image in general, not particularly just you or me and our families. You shouldn't be surprised that kind of statement sounds kinda startling. If you have some Christian explanation for what you say, you can come up with it, but otherwise don't expect people to just know what loving and caring intentions really lie behind your language.

As for 'war monger and baby killer', they're different subjects, but I'm all against abortion as a way of birth control but think it's appropriate when the mother's life is in danger (falls in the category of self defence) and am still hesitant about the accidental pregnancies caused by rape to a young girl. War mongering, I don't know about that.. the world's not a perfect place, so the precense of military forces is inevitable. At least 'defence forces'. Okay, those are subjects for a different thread.

 

[Suomipoika]

Nokia??? Just Nokia?

I come from a country where Bill Gates didn't even finish school and now controls about 98% of all computer operating systems of the world.

Please, don't be childish, at least. If you'll do some little googling, you'll quickly find out that Finland is a country of about 5,300,000 people, that's right, a little more than 5 million. Put that into perspective with the roughly 300 million living in the U.S. (nearly 60 times more), and some basic universal logics should probably compel you to acknowledge that it would be a total impossibility that our country would produce technological or other high-achievers in same numbers as the U.S.

Oh, btw, since you mentioned Bill Gates and Windows.. Ever heared of Linux? Well Linux comes from Finland, too.

You know, it's not more difficult than enter Wikipedia and educate yourself a little. You'll soon find out that:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finland

"Finland is eleventh on the United Nations' Human Development Index[2]"

"and ranked as the sixth happiest nation in the world.[3
(of course, that doesn't always equal 'spiritual happiness')

"According to the World Audit Democracy profile, Finland is the freest nation in the world, in terms of civil liberties, freedom of the press, low corruption levels and political rights.[4]"

"in 2003, Finnish 15-year-olds came first in reading literacy, science, and mathematics; and second in problem solving, worldwide."

"The World Economic Forum ranks Finland's tertiary education #1 in the world."

"After having one of the highest death rates from heart disease in the world in the 1970s, improvements in the Finnish diet and exercise have paid off. Finland is now one of the fittest countries in the world.[24]"

"World Economic Forum has declared Finland to be the most competitive country in the world for three consecutive years (2003–2005) and four times since 2002.[31]"

Sorry, but I think you are simply banging your head blindly against the wall here.. this isn't just another 'status quo' country. Don't know who taught you that kind of concept in the school, in the first place...

And still, it's great that Bill Gates could succeed even without finishing school, but that's not a very good argument to defend the fact that many do drop out of school or just can't afford it, if that's what you tried to use it for. And if that is the case? Here we get free study books in primary and junior high school, we get free school lunches, and we don't have to pay tuition fees in college, at all. Oh, and the average lenght of paid holiday is 35 days / year, too... seems to be 12 days in the U.S., according to some statistic. What was that 'dream' of yours, again?

I come from a country where men who had no education grew companies into OIL companies, yeah cheap oil, that supplies this WORLD with oil.

You my dear boy don't impress me much.

Uh-huh. Okay. Cheap oil, maybe for you?

 

[KarrieTex]

Please, don't be childish, at least. If you'll do some little googling, you'll quickly find out that Finland is a country of about 5,300,000 people, that's right, a little more than 5 million. Put that into perspective with the roughly 300 million living in the U.S. (nearly 60 times more), and some basic universal logics should probably compel you to acknowledge that it would be a total impossibility that our country would produce technological or other high-achievers in same numbers as the U.S.

Oh, btw, since you mentioned Bill Gates and Windows.. Ever heared of Linux? Well Linux comes from Finland, too.

You know, it's not more difficult than enter Wikipedia and educate yourself a little. You'll soon find out that:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finland

"Finland is eleventh on the United Nations' Human Development Index[2]"

"and ranked as the sixth happiest nation in the world.[3
(of course, that doesn't always equal 'spiritual happiness')

"According to the World Audit Democracy profile, Finland is the freest nation in the world, in terms of civil liberties, freedom of the press, low corruption levels and political rights.[4]"

"in 2003, Finnish 15-year-olds came first in reading literacy, science, and mathematics; and second in problem solving, worldwide."

"The World Economic Forum ranks Finland's tertiary education #1 in the world."

"After having one of the highest death rates from heart disease in the world in the 1970s, improvements in the Finnish diet and exercise have paid off. Finland is now one of the fittest countries in the world.[24]"

"World Economic Forum has declared Finland to be the most competitive country in the world for three consecutive years (2003–2005) and four times since 2002.[31]"

Sorry, but I think you are simply banging your head blindly against the wall here.. this isn't just another 'status quo' country. Don't know who taught you that kind of concept in the school, in the first place...

And still, it's great that Bill Gates could succeed even without finishing school, but that's not a very good argument to defend the fact that many do drop out of school or just can't afford it, if that's what you tried to use it for. And if that is the case? Here we get free study books in primary and junior high school, we get free school lunches, and we don't have to pay tuition fees in college, at all. Oh, and the average lenght of paid holiday is 35 days / year, too... seems to be 12 days in the U.S., according to some statistic. What was that 'dream' of yours, again?



Uh-huh. Okay. Cheap oil, maybe for you?

YAWN


Child, your country is as big as my city. I am still not impressed.

 

[sentipente]

I always find it interesting how the same people who say we should not break the law, God's or otherwise, will rejoice when they hear stories of missionaries who smuggle Bibles into countries where they are not permitted. What happened to the law there?

I am not surprised that the culprits have ignored this.

 

[Suomipoika]

YAWN


Child, your country is as big as my city. I am still not impressed.

Well, you could give me the respective statistics on your city, then. We could compare the conditions and see if it's really so much better there like you seem to think it is... how well does your city alone rank in these terms? How many more Nokias and Linuxes has it produced? And oh, did you live in Houston (2 million plus people) or[FONT=verdana,arial,helvetica,courier,courier new] in Changdu, China?
[/FONT]

 

[KarrieTex]

Houston in my view is much better. But then I wasn't impressed when I saw Finland, Norway, Germany or the rest.

It boils down to this. I have the blood of men and women who are by far the bravest on this earth. We Americans and our fore fathers are immense people who can accomplish anything no matter education, wealth or popularity.

Your view about my country in retrospect doesn't matter. In all honesty, your view on this is doesn't matter. It is a United States issue that we are facing and it concerns you not.

My grandparents on years gone by did not die, struggle, and fight for this country to have it over run with criminals. To have it's legacy squandered on those who hate her and who want to use her.

I am not going to defend her to the likes of you and what you represent anymore than I am going to beat my chest and proclaim her greatness.

I am sick and tired of views from socialist countries negatively influencing this country. Please pardon me if I look down my nose at such views and the people who spew them.

You are not an American and until you love my country and become one, then your view matters not. Don't expect me and others who love this country to think you have the market on what is best or even consider your view as viable.

 

[Suomipoika]

Houston in my view is much better.

And what are these 'views' exactly? I gave you lots of statistics, but you only vaguely offer me your 'view' in return. Based on what evidence should I be imperessed at all?

But then I wasn't impressed when I saw Finland, Norway, Germany or the rest.

Really? Have you seen them? Have you studied them in depth? Have you been around?

You know what? In all honesty, I am impressed by America. It's a great nation and has given a lot of good contribution to this world. There are things that are done in different ways in other parts of the world, which clearly yield good results, like I have proven with my statistics. It's only arrogance that creates you an illusion that "America's the best place to live in in every single aspect", that "I will never be impressed by any other place". That's an un-Christian attitude, seeing that your primary citizenship is that of the Heavenly Kingdom, and not of the United States. The Bible speaks nowhere about 'one great nation' that will be superior to ever other in every aspect and area of life. It's only sinful pride to think like that.

It boils down to this. I have the blood of men and women who are by far the bravest on this earth.

Please don't make me laugh. How can you claim with such confidence that your people alone are the bravest in the world? You're living in total ignorance and darkness of civilization if you refuse to acknowledge that there have been pretty brave people in other parts of this world, too. Both my grandfathers went to war and fought for our independence twice against no smaller enemy than the Soviet Union. Think about that, a country sized of ours against the great red USSR, and we prevailed! The second time of the was in hard winter circumstances. If you studied the history of Finland a little, you'd learn that the wealth of this country has not been earned easily.

We Americans and our fore fathers are immense people who can accomplish anything no matter education, wealth or popularity.

Yeah, surely they are like giants and Cyclops and they have magical powers and they can do miracles and stuff with their 'American spirit'... have you thought about writing a fairytale book on these 'immense people' with 'immense powers in their blood'?

Your view about my country in retrospect doesn't matter. In all honesty, your view on this is doesn't matter. It is a United States issue that we are facing and it concerns you not.

If this is about the OP.. yes, I'm basically against illegal immigration. You guys should probably put some pressure on Mexico and try to make them control their people better on that side.. and to make their own contribution to help them, which should primarily belong to them.

I am sick and tired of views from socialist countries negatively influencing this country. Please pardon me if I look down my nose at such views and the people who spew them.

A "socialist country"? Excuse me, but..

"Finland has a highly industrialised, free-market economy with a per capita output equal to that of other western economies such as Sweden, the UK, France and Germany"

A country can't have a free market economy and socialist economy at the same time. It can have a 'moderated' free markert, though, where a complete economic freedom is not seen to be a wise solution in this not-so-perfect world. As I see it, both extreme socialism and extreme capitalism are utopias that will never bring the best fruit in a world so deeply rooted in man's sin. And like you can very well see in those statistics, the fruit that this 'compromise' has born here is at least not any worse than the fruit of the more purely capitalist societies. In fact, it seems to work rather well.

 

[InHisSpirit]

"n this country a "poor" legal child is given all the medical care they need...it's called "Medicaid" and is free to the poorest, and send down to the not quite as poor...

The taxes that go towards that program I don't mind so much....except of course when it's extended to include illegal immigrants..."

Gwenyfur,
Only once you get through the miles of paper work, and if your a DOLLAR over their limit, your children are not covered!!!! I even have a special needs son who I cannot get covered!!!!!!

 

[InHisSpirit]

Oh, and no insurance co. will touch him w/ a ten foot pole...that is unless we had nearly $1000 a month for the bill. That is just not affordable.

 

[tammym1972]

Houston in my view is much better. But then I wasn't impressed when I saw Finland, Norway, Germany or the rest.

It boils down to this. I have the blood of men and women who are by far the bravest on this earth. We Americans and our fore fathers are immense people who can accomplish anything no matter education, wealth or popularity.

Your view about my country in retrospect doesn't matter. In all honesty, your view on this is doesn't matter. It is a United States issue that we are facing and it concerns you not.

My grandparents on years gone by did not die, struggle, and fight for this country to have it over run with criminals. To have it's legacy squandered on those who hate her and who want to use her.

I am not going to defend her to the likes of you and what you represent anymore than I am going to beat my chest and proclaim her greatness.

I am sick and tired of views from socialist countries negatively influencing this country. Please pardon me if I look down my nose at such views and the people who spew them.

You are not an American and until you love my country and become one, then your view matters not. Don't expect me and others who love this country to think you have the market on what is best or even consider your view as viable.

Ok I am an American and I don't hold your veiws. I agree 100% with suomikopoika. That is the problem with the US. We are so arrogant!!!! Yes there are wondeful things about the US but it is lacking in so many areas too. It's sad when people act as if America is God

 

[KarrieTex]

Ok I am an American and I don't hold your veiws. I agree 100% with suomikopoika. That is the problem with the US. We are so arrogant!!!! Yes there are wondeful things about the US but it is lacking in so many areas too. It's sad when people act as if America is God

It is sadder even still to not love this country.

I know we are lacking because nothing is perfect but I am not only sick of others passing judgement on my country when if they were in trouble be screaming for our help, I am DISGUSTED by Americans who hate her.

 

[irateional]

I'm going to raise a point.

How can something be illegal if it hurts no one? Illegal immigration in and of itself hurts no one. Immigrants do not take from the system.

They're the backbone of providing cheap labor for fields that many American's dont work in such as:

-Agricultural Work
-Septic/Sewage Cleaning
-Maid Services
-Gardening
-Construction

If you want to support a free market capitalist system, then you MUST UNDERSTAND that labor is a commodity. It must be allowed to flow freely across borders and it's subject to supply and demand also.

Most of the horror stories about illegal immigrants are the same vein of sensationalism that concerned chinese, italian, russian and irish immigrants into the US during the early 1900's.

Most of them aren't villains. They're bucking an immigration system that takes years to legalize people. They're bucking an illegitimate system.

Most of them aren't even Mexican. Most are central and South Americans forced to immigrate to the US for work, due to massive infaltion in their countries due to unjust trade agreements that the US has with their home countries.

Just because a law says something is illegal doesn't make it immoral. Afterall, laws used to segregate the races, and I don't see people in support of that practice nowadays.

 

[irateional]

It is sadder even still to not love this country.

I know we are lacking because nothing is perfect but I am not only sick of others passing judgement on my country when if they were in trouble be screaming for our help, I am DISGUSTED by Americans who hate her.

That's a poisnous mentality to have. Or do you not see how polticians and other leaders can use you because of that?

Do not make yourself an unwitting pawn to politicians just because you think that's what is right.

I love America too, but I also respect the opinions of those that don't. Especially because they often have legitimate points about things we can improve on.

 

[Gwenyfur]

I'm going to raise a point.

How can something be illegal if it hurts no one? Illegal immigration in and of itself hurts no one. Immigrants do not take from the system.

Tell that to the nearly bankrupt welfare system that gives them free medical care, free shelter, free food stamps, leaving our own citizens short on supplies and assistence.

They're the backbone of providing cheap labor for fields that many American's dont work in such as:

-Agricultural Work
-Septic/Sewage Cleaning
-Maid Services
-Gardening
-Construction

agricultural work?? You even seen a farm? septic/sewage cleaning? wow...never saw an illegal drivin' the trucks for the johnyonthespots..., maid services, unless paid in cash, most maid/cleaning/janitorial services use legal immigrants/citizens...construction...well...non-union construction firms..yeah...I'll buy that one *snerk*

If you want to support a free market capitalist system, then you MUST UNDERSTAND that labor is a commodity. It must be allowed to flow freely across borders and it's subject to supply and demand also.

Most of the horror stories about illegal immigrants are the same vein of sensationalism that concerned chinese, italian, russian and irish immigrants into the US during the early 1900's.

Most of them aren't villains. They're bucking an immigration system that takes years to legalize people. They're bucking an illegitimate system.

Most of them aren't even Mexican. Most are central and South Americans forced to immigrate to the US for work, due to massive infaltion in their countries due to unjust trade agreements that the US has with their home countries.

Just because a law says something is illegal doesn't make it immoral. Afterall, laws used to segregate the races, and I don't see people in support of that practice nowadays.

ummm read any research lately?

Analysis of the latest Census data indicates that California's illegal immigrant population is costing the state's taxpayers more than $10.5 billion per year for education, medical care and incarceration. Even if the estimated tax contributions of illegal immigrant workers are subtracted, net outlays still amount to nearly $9 billion per year. The annual fiscal burden from those three areas of state expenditures amounts to about $1,183 per household headed by a native-born resident.

source

 

[irateional]

Tell that to the nearly bankrupt welfare system that gives them free medical care, free shelter, free food stamps, leaving our own citizens short on supplies and assistence.

agricultural work?? You even seen a farm? septic/sewage cleaning? wow...never saw an illegal drivin' the trucks for the johnyonthespots..., maid services, unless paid in cash, most maid/cleaning/janitorial services use legal immigrants/citizens...construction...well...non-union construction firms..yeah...I'll buy that one *snerk*



ummm read any research lately?
source

Sure.

Then again, how much money is that in the CA state budget? How much of this crime has more to do with the situation illegals are put in? There's a lot not being considered.
Furthermore

Why not make it so that illegals don't have to use the emergency room to get basic medical care? Why not make a guest worker program? Why not do any of these things?

Oh wait...

Because last time it was suggested, a bunch of racists in Congress freaked out about brown people in America having rights! I mean let's be honest. How much of this is rooted in fear of Mexican immigrants?

I've actually worked alongside them, and talked to them. Most of them speak English. Most of them aren't bad people.

 

[Touma]

Sure.

Then again, how much money is that in the CA state budget? How much of this crime has more to do with the situation illegals are put in? There's a lot not being considered.
Furthermore

Why not make it so that illegals don't have to use the emergency room to get basic medical care? Why not make a guest worker program? Why not do any of these things?

Oh wait...

Because last time it was suggested, a bunch of racists in Congress freaked out about brown people in America having rights! I mean let's be honest. How much of this is rooted in fear of Mexican immigrants?

I've actually worked alongside them, and talked to them. Most of them speak English. Most of them aren't bad people.

It still irks me that Christians of all people, will bring up the points of money/economy, and prison. A bit hypocritcal when they do that, ya know? Anyways, good post! I agree, most are really awesome people, and loyal if you befriend them. However, ethnocentric behaviour prohibits many people from coming to realize this.