Your views on illegal immigration...

[Suomipoika]

You said, "people are not owned anything based on the fact they exist". If that's what you think, I suggest you move to the prairees, put up an enclave and raise a banner "we don't believe in inherent God-given human value". If that's what you think.. yes, that is evil and I don't fellowship with someone who claims the name of Christ and gleefully endorses such sodomy.

 

[Suomipoika]

At least in the US, everyone does have an equal chance to succeed or fail on their own accord but far too many don't even want to try.

Yeah, a really great chance. Just take a look at some child poverty and illiteracy statistics, compare with a some other western democracies and then flaunt with the chances that the US gives again. Really great chances to fulfill your 'American dream'. Almost equal chances!

 

[mont974x4]

You are free to place me on ignore if you wish.


Yes, success in the US is a hard road but in reality people are only limited by themselves. Heck, I heard about a guy last night who made over $1 million in 2005 just selling t-shirts. He started selling them out of his trunk.


Also, remember Paul's example, for he had learned to be content with much and with little.

 

[Suomipoika]

You are free to place me on ignore if you wish.

It might be that I reacted with some excessive 'youthful radicalism', but I still believe that you support 'sodomy' (the sin of Sodom, Ezekiel 16) if you maintain to deny people their inherent rights to need the most basic needs of life. The question of will we ever actually succeed in guaranteeing those rights to everyone is different from the question of should we at least think those rights should belong to everyone or not.

Yes, success in the US is a hard road but in reality people are only limited by themselves. Heck, I heard about a guy last night who made over $1 million in 2005 just selling t-shirts. He started selling them out of his trunk.

Success in some other places is an EASIER road, believe it or not. Well, if you talk about becoming filthy rich, then you might have a better chance in the U.S., but making a reasonable living is easier in many other places. For example, take a look at some child poverty statistics: our dear neighbor Sweden 2,6% - the U.S. 22,4% (those living in relative poverty). That DOES have consequences as for the chances of a good life for the child. And saying vaguely that "people are only limited by themselves" is just rhetorics void of any real substance, especially when considering the number of children born into poverty. I think it's a great hypocricy to be 'techincally' pro-life while not giving a dang about what kind of quality of life the child faces once "we have fulfilled 'our obligatin'", getting them out of the momma's womb.

Also, remember Paul's example, for he had learned to be content with much and with little.

I remember, and that's an important Scripture for anyone. But tell that to a child who's in need of food, clothing, vaccinations and a decent elementary education. Keep the Scripture in the context where it belongs. I agree that human entrepreunership should be given its due value, but the aim should be at giving each human being an equal chance of putting their skills and gifts into use, in the first place.

 

[mont974x4]

Your youth was taken into account my young friend. No worries.


You have to understand, that I never denied the basic needs. Only the attitude that people who sit back and expect those basic needs to be met by others while being guilty of laziness, gluttony etc. Biblically, they must be held accountable. Simply meeting the basic physical needs is not enough. Christs example is one that included meeting both physical and spiritual needs.


I do understand that from your view my stance seems cold hearted, but really it isn't. It is to encourage people to be the people God intends thems to be. And here in the US, we do have equal chances and equal opportunities, it is that it requires to much effort for some people and we would be wrong to enable them to continue in sin.

 

[Suomipoika]

Your youth was taken into account my young friend. No worries.

[FONT=&quot]I do apreciate your calmness, but that doesn't make me agree with you.

[/FONT]

You have to understand, that I never denied the basic needs. Only the attitude that people who sit back and expect those basic needs to be met by others while being guilty of laziness, gluttony etc. Biblically, they must be held accountable. Simply meeting the basic physical needs is not enough. Christs example is one that included meeting both physical and spiritual needs.

[FONT=&quot]1) How can someone who isn't provided with the basic material needs for a decent human life be guilty of gluttony?

2) Yes, that is Christ's example. But hey, don't you neglect the physical side then, it's not an either-or case! You can't blame children who are born into poverty in the midst of one of the richest countries of the world, of "laziness".

[/FONT]

I do understand that from your view my stance seems cold hearted, but really it isn't. It is to encourage people to be the people God intends thems to be. And here in the US, we do have equal chances and equal opportunities, it is that it requires to much effort for some people and we would be wrong to enable them to continue in sin.

I do understand that from your view my stance seems cold hearted, but really it isn't. It is to encourage people to be the people God intends thems to be. And here in the US, we do have equal chances and equal opportunities, it is that it requires to much effort for some people and we would be wrong to enable them to continue in sin.

"In the US, you have equal chances and opportunities"? Are you absolutely sure you want to lock that answer? What if we go and look at some empirical statistics for evidence?

http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/8Comparison.htm

Here's a statistic back from 1992. Not the most recent one, but still recent enough to give a general picture. It compares the US with some other rich western nations. I'll use here the countries that are most familiar with myself, the Scandinavian nations, Norway, Sweden and Finland. For the most part, they don't differ drastically between each other in these matters. Okay, let's take a look.

Inequality of income (o=most equal 100=most unequal):
Sweden & Norway: 60
USA: 100

Poverty level:
Norway: 5,2%
USA: 17,1%

Childrean under the poverty level:
Norway: 4,8%
USA: 22,4%

Deaths from malnutrition (per million):
Norway: men 0 women 1
USA: men 7 women 13

Percentage of population covered by public health care:
Scandinavian countries: 100%
USA: 40%

Infant mortality rate (per 1,000):
Finland 5,9
USA 10,4

Death rate of 1-4 year olds (per 200,00/year):
Finland 53,3
USA 101,5

Plus, the fact that in America the education of the child is heavily dependent on the wealth of the parents.

Plus, the illiteracy statistic, that I didn't find on that site...

Still think your systems offer and 'equal oportunity' for everyone? I think that's just void rhetorics that Americans like to churn out but in reality they are living within a big bubble of illusion if they think the U.S. somehow shows the world what it is to have 'equal opportunities'. In fact, out of all the 'rich countries' of the world, the U.S. seems to offer most unequal opportunities to its citizens. The rate of child poverty, for example, comes very close to that of Mexico, the place where most of your illegal immgrants come from. Turkey is ahead of the US in that statistic. And you are one of the richest nations in the world, in economic terms, but still such number of poverty exists!

The bible demonstrates what's the greatest sin for a society in Ezekiel 16:

49 " 'Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. 50 They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen.

And this, like we know, was a perfect breeding ground for all other kinds of sins to 'flourish', too, and so Lot and his family ended up having the gay rapists stalking his daughters and stuff like that.

Stating something like "we don't owe them anything just based on the fact that they exist" is the perfect first step in opening the floodgates for nothing less than a new Sodom. I hope you don't want to be an agent in that process.

 

[mont974x4]

You don't have to agree with me. I was merely trying to show that we can agree to disagree and be civil as brothers in Christ. If you honestly believe I ignore the physical needs then I must not have made myself clear in my earlier posts, or you refuse to see it. Yes, the poor can most certainly be guilty of gluttony, I have seen it first hand. Just as they can be guilty of any other sin. The amount of wealth a person has or does not have will not protect them against any and all sins. We can all fall into the same traps. It is not our jobs to make sure everyone has an equal amount of wealth. Nor is it our job to meet all the needs of all people. Go read what the Bible requires of widows. As I said earlier, help those with real needs and hold people accountable for their own responsibilities. I'm sure I sound cold to you but nothing could be further from the truth and your accusations that I'm trying to set up a new Sodom are unfounded. I would suggest you reread my posts in light of what Scripture really teaches and shows on such issues and make sure you read all the passages, not just the ones you think make you right. BTW, Sodom was not just destroyed for being inhospitable/ how they handled the poor etc... Jud 1:7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.

 

[KarrieTex]

[FONT=&quot]I do apreciate your calmness, but that doesn't make me agree with you.

[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]1) How can someone who isn't provided with the basic material needs for a decent human life be guilty of gluttony?

2) Yes, that is Christ's example. But hey, don't you neglect the physical side then, it's not an either-or case! You can't blame children who are born into poverty in the midst of one of the richest countries of the world, of "laziness".

[/FONT]



"In the US, you have equal chances and opportunities"? Are you absolutely sure you want to lock that answer? What if we go and look at some empirical statistics for evidence?

http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/8Comparison.htm

Here's a statistic back from 1992. Not the most recent one, but still recent enough to give a general picture. It compares the US with some other rich western nations. I'll use here the countries that are most familiar with myself, the Scandinavian nations, Norway, Sweden and Finland. For the most part, they don't differ drastically between each other in these matters. Okay, let's take a look.

Inequality of income (o=most equal 100=most unequal):
Sweden & Norway: 60
USA: 100

Poverty level:
Norway: 5,2%
USA: 17,1%

Childrean under the poverty level:
Norway: 4,8%
USA: 22,4%

Deaths from malnutrition (per million):
Norway: men 0 women 1
USA: men 7 women 13

Percentage of population covered by public health care:
Scandinavian countries: 100%
USA: 40%

Infant mortality rate (per 1,000):
Finland 5,9
USA 10,4

Death rate of 1-4 year olds (per 200,00/year):
Finland 53,3
USA 101,5

Plus, the fact that in America the education of the child is heavily dependent on the wealth of the parents.

Plus, the illiteracy statistic, that I didn't find on that site...

Still think your systems offer and 'equal oportunity' for everyone? I think that's just void rhetorics that Americans like to churn out but in reality they are living within a big bubble of illusion if they think the U.S. somehow shows the world what it is to have 'equal opportunities'. In fact, out of all the 'rich countries' of the world, the U.S. seems to offer most unequal opportunities to its citizens. The rate of child poverty, for example, comes very close to that of Mexico, the place where most of your illegal immgrants come from. Turkey is ahead of the US in that statistic. And you are one of the richest nations in the world, in economic terms, but still such number of poverty exists!

The bible demonstrates what's the greatest sin for a society in Ezekiel 16:

49 " 'Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. 50 They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen.

And this, like we know, was a perfect breeding ground for all other kinds of sins to 'flourish', too, and so Lot and his family ended up having the gay rapists stalking his daughters and stuff like that.

Stating something like "we don't owe them anything just based on the fact that they exist" is the perfect first step in opening the floodgates for nothing less than a new Sodom. I hope you don't want to be an agent in that process.

I don't agree with those stats because in each case they take into consideration illegals.

It is not my place as an American citizen to take care of criminals and it should not be my money that does it.

I just love how all the euro's think their way works. When ultimately it still comes from your pocket. I don't want to be taxed as they are taxed and I'll be danged if my hard earned money is used to make life comfortable for an illegal.

 

[mont974x4]

Yeah, who would want the kind of success of France...we have near record lows on unemployment and France is in double digits. What I have noticed doing popcorn sales etc for Cub Scouts and other such fund raising with my kids is that conservatives, even the poor ones, are way more giving and supportive than rich liberals. For all their talk, they sure don't have the follow through. And if they do actually start to help, they blindly write a check and stay home where they don't have to get dirty. I have noticed the same trend in churches.

 

[Gwenyfur]

I don't agree with those stats because in each case they take into consideration illegals.

It is not my place as an American citizen to take care of criminals and it should not be my money that does it.

I just love how all the euro's think their way works. When ultimately it still comes from your pocket. I don't want to be taxed as they are taxed and I'll be danged if my hard earned money is used to make life comfortable for an illegal.

Nothing like dying while on the waiting list for that "awesome" state medical care *snerk*

 

[Suomipoika]

Nothing like dying while on the waiting list for that "awesome" state medical care *snerk*

Say that to a child who is born in the midst of poverty in the middle of a rich nation.

 

[Suomipoika]

I soooo looove to be a happy middle-class person, and i don't have o give a damn about the weak and the needy...

 

[Suomipoika]

Happy dayssss, anybody, happpy dayyyyys....????!!!

 

[Suomipoika]

You don't have to agree with me.

I don't.

I was merely trying to show that we can agree to disagree and be civil as brothers in Christ. If you honestly believe I ignore the physical needs then I must not have made myself clear in my earlier posts, or you refuse to see it.

Hey, you said something like "we don't owe them anything just based on the fact that they exist". Until that moment I was prepared for a good discussion, but that was.. startling, I guess. It brought to my mind all kind of nazi images and stuff like that. Like taking away the God-given value of a human life. I think it's hypocrite to be only 'technically' pro-life while not caring what kind of life the child faces one's it's born. But yeah yeah yeah, "public health care just sounds ohh so 'socialist', so it must be evil". What if your own child was said "you don't deserve anything simply because you exist". That does appear with a rather cruel and 'cold' overtone in my ears.

Yes, the poor can most certainly be guilty of gluttony, I have seen it first hand. Just as they can be guilty of any other sin.

Someone who turns to Chirst from a very sinful lifestyle will often be a little 'over-zealous' in the beginning, throwing away all the visible remnants of the past life and cutting ties with some friends from the old life. In the same way, someone who gets their first good meal in a long while can fall into 'extremism' in eating. But in the process, should the person grow in maturity, both 'gluttony' and extremely strict piety will probably moderate. Anyway, certainly not an argumen for the society to not provide people with their most basic needs.

The amount of wealth a person has or does not have will not protect them against any and all sins. We can all fall into the same traps. It is not our jobs to make sure everyone has an equal amount of wealth. Nor is it our job to meet all the needs of all people. Go read what the Bible requires of widows. As I said earlier, help those with real needs and hold people accountable for their own responsibilities. I'm sure I sound cold to you but nothing could be further from the truth and your accusations that I'm trying to set up a new Sodom are unfounded.

It's most definetily not our responsibility to make sure people have the same amount of wealth. That would be crazy! But the Bible speaks about the society and its responsibility to meet some of the people's most basic needs. Sodom is a 'great' example, the Bible puts blame on the society (the city) for not caring about her poor and needy. Whether it happens through taxation or through voluntary efforts or partly through both of these means, it should nevertheless happen. And like you can see from my statistics, the system where more weight has been put on the public network of social care, the results just happen to speak for themselves. America is closer to some developing countries than to other rich western democracies in many of those statistics.

I would suggest you reread my posts in light of what Scripture really teaches and shows on such issues and make sure you read all the passages, not just the ones you think make you right. BTW, Sodom was not just destroyed for being inhospitable/ how they handled the poor etc... Jud 1:7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.

That verse only compares Sodom to other cities, but Ezekiel 16 speaks of Sodom first and foremost. And yes, sexual immorality is also sinful, of course. But nowhere does the Bible imply that it would be more sinful than ignoring the needs of children born into poverty.

Hey, so do you still claim that the U.S. would be some kind of epitome of "equal opportunity" among the world democracies? Not that I wouldn't find things that are wrong here, too, and also things that are better in America, but reality is reality and those stats surely have something to say.

 

[Suomipoika]

I don't agree with those stats because in each case they take into consideration illegals.

There is a HUGE number of children, for example, living in the U.S. How big, do you think, should the proportion of illegal immigrants be to actually make a significant contribution in these 'child statiscis'? Nearly 5 times more 'innocent children' have the lot of living under the poverty line in the U.S. than in Scandinavia. How much different do you think this would be with the illegal immigrant children excluded from the count?

It is not my place as an American citizen to take care of criminals and it should not be my money that does it.

I agree. Send them the message that Jesus loves them but they still aren't allowed to break the laws of your country.

I just love how all the euro's think their way works. When ultimately it still comes from your pocket. I don't want to be taxed as they are taxed and I'll be danged if my hard earned money is used to make life comfortable for an illegal.

I happily pay taxes to keep up the system we have had here for long. I like the fact that I can help those otherwise less fortunate individuals to have the same opportunities as I, with free health care, free education and such. That reduces bitterness and envy between what could be called as 'classes', and is likely to decrease the causes for violence stemming from bitterness and rebellion attitude. And the Bible advices me to not fall into bitterness even if a couple of my cents ended up in the hands of 'exploiters' of the system. May God bless those cents and the people they ended up with. However, I think there definetily IS room for reform in the taxation of Finland. The progressive taxation definetily gets a little too progressive at some point, and it tends to discourage entrepreunership. That, for example, should be fixed. But otherwise, yes, time has proven that this system kinda does work. Not perfectly, but reasonably well anyways.

 

[Gwenyfur]

Say that to a child who is born in the midst of poverty in the middle of a rich nation.

In this country a "poor" legal child is given all the medical care they need...it's called "Medicaid" and is free to the poorest, and send down to the not quite as poor...

The taxes that go towards that program I don't mind so much....except of course when it's extended to include illegal immigrants...

 

[Suomipoika]

In this country a "poor" legal child is given all the medical care they need...it's called "Medicaid" and is free to the poorest, and send down to the not quite as poor...

The taxes that go towards that program I don't mind so much....except of course when it's extended to include illegal immigrants...

Well.. any possible way, just so long as the children aren't simply left totally on the fortunes of their parent's wealth, or the lack thereof. Because that would be totally against the idea of 'equal opportunities'. I must admit I don't know your health care system too closely, my only concern is that in a rich country that system absolutely should guarantee the child the most basic requirements of life, in case the parents are 'unable' to fill their responsibilities. But how about what the statistics say? Can you prove me that it works as well as it could/should work, for example by pointing out some real flaws in those stats? I know that you have to be very careful when reading any kind of statisctics, but basically those stats just confirmed what I've already heard and seen in other sources.

 

[KarrieTex]

There is a HUGE number of children, for example, living in the U.S. How big, do you think, should the proportion of illegal immigrants be to actually make a significant contribution in these 'child statiscis'? Nearly 5 times more 'innocent children' have the lot of living under the poverty line in the U.S. than in Scandinavia. How much different do you think this would be with the illegal immigrant children excluded from the count?



I agree. Send them the message that Jesus loves them but they still aren't allowed to break the laws of your country.



I happily pay taxes to keep up the system we have had here for long. I like the fact that I can help those otherwise less fortunate individuals to have the same opportunities as I, with free health care, free education and such. That reduces bitterness and envy between what could be called as 'classes', and is likely to decrease the causes for violence stemming from bitterness and rebellion attitude. And the Bible advices me to not fall into bitterness even if a couple of my cents ended up in the hands of 'exploiters' of the system. May God bless those cents and the people they ended up with. However, I think there definetily IS room for reform in the taxation of Finland. The progressive taxation definetily gets a little too progressive at some point, and it tends to discourage entrepreunership. That, for example, should be fixed. But otherwise, yes, time has proven that this system kinda does work. Not perfectly, but reasonably well anyways.

You forget one thing in your nice little world. What works for those who like the status quo doe not work here where we push to reach for the Dream.

I would drown of more bitterness in your system then even more here.

And what you call less fortunate ARE CRIMINALS here.

IF you feel that your tax money should make a criminals life more pleasent then I pity you.

 

[KarrieTex]

There is a HUGE number of children, for example, living in the U.S. How big, do you think, should the proportion of illegal immigrants be to actually make a significant contribution in these 'child statiscis'? Nearly 5 times more 'innocent children' have the lot of living under the poverty line in the U.S. than in Scandinavia. How much different do you think this would be with the illegal immigrant children excluded from the count?



I agree. Send them the message that Jesus loves them but they still aren't allowed to break the laws of your country.



I happily pay taxes to keep up the system we have had here for long. I like the fact that I can help those otherwise less fortunate individuals to have the same opportunities as I, with free health care, free education and such. That reduces bitterness and envy between what could be called as 'classes', and is likely to decrease the causes for violence stemming from bitterness and rebellion attitude. And the Bible advices me to not fall into bitterness even if a couple of my cents ended up in the hands of 'exploiters' of the system. May God bless those cents and the people they ended up with. However, I think there definetily IS room for reform in the taxation of Finland. The progressive taxation definetily gets a little too progressive at some point, and it tends to discourage entrepreunership. That, for example, should be fixed. But otherwise, yes, time has proven that this system kinda does work. Not perfectly, but reasonably well anyways.

There may be as many as 20 million illegal immigrants in the US today - more than twice the official Census Bureau estimate, according to Bear Stearns researchers Robert Justich and Betty Ng.

20 million is no small number

http://www.cis.org/articles/2001/mexico/poverty.html

And let's look at this where ILLEGALS have anchor babies and then are below the poverty level.


Nearly 14 million people (including 4.7 million children) live in "mixed status" families - in which the head of the household or the spouse is in the US illegally - Pew reported last summer. This is partly because children born in the US- regardless of their parents' legal status - are automatically US citizens.

Yet another SMALL stat

YOU don't live here and YOU don't really have a view point that matters in the scheme of things when it comes to how WE, as citizens, act.

 

[Suomipoika]

You forget one thing in your nice little world. What works for those who like the status quo doe not work here where we push to reach for the Dream.

This is mere vague rethorics that falls in the category of 'national mythology'. Can you be a little more explicit about the nature of this 'dream'? What are you guys up to? And how about that 'status quo' claim of yours? Well I have to ask you.. what do you actually know about my country? Europe is not just simply 'Europe'.

Also, remember that the 'nice little world' where I come from is a country with an economic competence pretty much matching that of yours. That's right, and without the cheap oil. Ever heard of Nokia? Heck, Jorma Ollila went to the same elementary with my mom. (And hey, we got the original Santa Claus here, too!) I shouldn't boast on this, but your rhetorics about "a vague dream in the horizon" just don't fully convince me. Sounds more like one of those cartoon movies that have a happy ending and a wise teaching in the plot...

IF you feel that your tax money should make a criminals life more pleasent then I pity you.

I didn't say they should make it, and that's where the system needs to be checked and that's where illegal immigration should be stopped. I only said that the Lord tells me not to feel bitterness if such a thing ever happened. Well.. God bless you anyway!