Your views on illegal immigration...

[GraceLikeRainFallsDown]

How can something be illegal if it hurts no one? Illegal immigration in and of itself hurts no one. Immigrants do not take from the system.

Most of them aren't even Mexican. Most are central and South Americans forced to immigrate to the US for work, due to massive infaltion in their countries due to unjust trade agreements that the US has with their home countries.

It can be illegal because it is against the law.

It does hurt others. Our educational and healthcare systems have suffered from it. Our tax dollars do go towards supporting illegals through the schools and emergency rooms. That money could be used for legal residents.

Thinking immigrants do not take from the system is truly naive. Do you live in an area directly effected? I really feel that many just do not understand because they are far removed from the situation.

I do not care where they come from. It is not a matter of race/nationality. It is a matter of law.

 

[Touma]

It does hurt others. Our educational and healthcare systems have suffered from it. Our tax dollars do go towards supporting illegals through the schools and emergency rooms. That money could be used for legal residents.

You know what else hurts these things? Giving tax cuts to the extremly wealthy, increasing the pay of our politicians, billions of dollars wasted in Iraq, and on the upkeep of a military far superior to anything the world has seen. Those are things that hurt more. Imagine what 100 billion dollars could do for our education or medical system! We have the money to help all the 'illegals' AND ourselves, but we waste it on destroying nations, and lining the pockets of our politicians with even more gold and silver.

 

[Gwenyfur]

So you proprose to pull the funding from the troops and their gear in order to pay for illegal immigrants' usage of our medical facilities, educational system, welfare system etc?

last I notice, our military was made up of legal citizens or legal immigrants getting their citizenship....

not criminals lookin' for an easy way in

 

[Touma]

So you proprose to pull the funding from the troops and their gear in order to pay for illegal immigrants' usage of our medical facilities, educational system, welfare system etc?

last I notice, our military was made up of legal citizens or legal immigrants getting their citizenship....

not criminals lookin' for an easy way in

Easy way to becoming a citizen, eh? I'd reckon that leaving one's home, crossing a hot desert, forging a river, escaping the violent grip of border vigilantes, finding a job, learning a new language, living on less than min. wage, and facing constant racism is a heck of a lot harder than simply being born in the country. WE are the ones that have it easy. We are born here, and we get benefits all of a sudden. Its not that we earned anything, its that we were lucky in where we were born. You could have been born in Uganda, Mexico, or Zimbabwe, work the same amount as you do here, pay the equivalent amount of taxes as you do here, and be just as much a good citizen as you are here, but you'd be left with little to nothing in those nations. We have an opportunity to save lives, with all that our nation has, not destroy them with our military. Our military is twice as funded as the entire world. THE ENTIRE WORLD. I don't see France, Russia, or China, on the verge of being invaded by "t3h 3bul turrists!!!1shift+1!" What I am saying is that as americans we have our priorities mixed up. We'd rather spend money on a killing machine, than to help those in need.

 

[Gwenyfur]

Yeah, and I could jsut as easily work to find a way to emmigrate elswhere legally!
I earned my right to speak up where I see fit. Paid for it in my own blood and that of my brothers and sisters.
I did just a bit more than just being born here. Just as those serving in our military who are earning their citizenship are doing it legally...and have earned the right to be here.

As for our military being over -funded...would you care to explain why an NCO and his wife both working still qualify for food stamps? Or why they're still using outdated body armor? Or still sharing training facilities? .... over funding????? I'll give ya this....that's about the hardest ironic laugh I've had in a couple of weeks!

 

[Touma]

Yeah, and I could jsut as easily work to find a way to emmigrate elswhere legally!
I earned my right to speak up where I see fit. Paid for it in my own blood and that of my brothers and sisters.
I did just a bit more than just being born here. Just as those serving in our military who are earning their citizenship are doing it legally...and have earned the right to be here.

Well, bold all the words you want. It still won't change my opinion on anything. We are all humans, and we are all from God. God sees us the same, and loves us indiscriminately. I would certainly think he'd be ashamed that we seperate ourselves based on temporary boundaries, and goverments. As far as your legal talk, have you ever tried to get a visa/greencard? Some people have to wait many years, and pays lots of money for legal fees. Tell me, if you don't have any money, how are you going to pay for such fees? If your family is starving RIGHT NOW, would you wait to become 'legal', to feed them? I would think not. As I said, countries come and go, but we will always be brothers and sisters as humans, so how can we treat them as lesser?

As for our military being over -funded...would you care to explain why an NCO and his wife both working still qualify for food stamps? Or why they're still using outdated body armor? Or still sharing training facilities? .... over funding????? I'll give ya this....that's about the hardest ironic laugh I've had in a couple of weeks!

Well when you pay 100 million dollars for a new sub, or 10 million for each bomb, then you can understand why money isn't going to soldiers. Its going to defense contractors, you know the whole Military Industrial Complex thing

 

[GraceLikeRainFallsDown]

You know what else hurts these things? Giving tax cuts to the extremly wealthy, increasing the pay of our politicians, billions of dollars wasted in Iraq, and on the upkeep of a military far superior to anything the world has seen. Those are things that hurt more. Imagine what 100 billion dollars could do for our education or medical system! We have the money to help all the 'illegals' AND ourselves, but we waste it on destroying nations, and lining the pockets of our politicians with even more gold and silver.

I do not agree with your statement.

But there is room for improvement. Can costs in other areas be cut? (not the way you propose - hate to tell you tax cuts work - entirely different topic though) Yes.

Is the government efficient? No.

It is not the Governnment of the USA's responsibility to support citizens of other countries. It could be argued it is not the governments responsibilty to support its own people long term. If you can find it in the Constitution, I would be interestd in seeing it. I do not remember it in there.

The purpose of the government is to portect its people. It is not to ever spend its citizens dollars to support people from other countries that break its laws. ( I guess jail would be an exception. But we do not have room.)

Charity is best left to private organizations.

There is no way to get around the argument that these people are law breakers. They are here illegally. I do not care if you think it is fir or not. It is illegal. There is no argument you can give me to convince me that they have a "right" to be in the USA illegally.

And, if you think we have enough money to help ALL in the world, you are naive. Where would you draw the line? What about all the third world countries in Afica? Can the citizens of the USA afford to support all the people the are starving to death there and have no homes? What about the oppressed living under dictatorships? Can we support all of them?

I will tell you where I draw the line. . . . the Border. If you cross it legally - WELCOME. If you cross it illegally - GO HOME!

I know your opinion cannot be changed. My opinion is firm as well. I am so grateful I live in a country that allows differing opinions.

God Bless!

 

[tammym1972]

It is sadder even still to not love this country.

I know we are lacking because nothing is perfect but I am not only sick of others passing judgement on my country when if they were in trouble be screaming for our help, I am DISGUSTED by Americans who hate her.

I don't hate America. I wouldn't want to live anywhere else. I'm just saying that it is not perfect and has A LOT of faults, the worst being her arrogant people

 

[KarrieTex]

That's a poisnous mentality to have. Or do you not see how polticians and other leaders can use you because of that?

Do not make yourself an unwitting pawn to politicians just because you think that's what is right.

I love America too, but I also respect the opinions of those that don't. Especially because they often have legitimate points about things we can improve on.

And your assumption I am a pawn in a politicians hand is immature.

Unlike A LOT in this country, I chose on the merits they have and what they have done and most likely will do for this country.

Pawns are the ones who take no pride in this country and allow those who wish to exploit her for their greed.

There are more out there like me Republicam, Democratic, and Independent. It was shown with the Immigration Bill being shot down and it will be seen again.

 

[irateional]

And your assumption I am a pawn in a politicians hand is immature.

Unlike A LOT in this country, I chose on the merits they have and what they have done and most likely will do for this country.

Pawns are the ones who take no pride in this country and allow those who wish to exploit her for their greed.

There are more out there like me Republicam, Democratic, and Independent. It was shown with the Immigration Bill being shot down and it will be seen again.

I'm not calling you a pawn. I was saying that you put yourself in a mindset where you could easily be used as one. If I wanted to call you one, I'd have been a lot more blunt about it. And a lot more insulting.

Once again, I'm going to say this again.

Why is no one interested in fixing the system so that Latinos can immigrate into this country, do work, and at the same time, pay back into the system? It's not impossible. So why won't we do anything?

 

[irateional]

I do not agree with your statement.

But there is room for improvement. Can costs in other areas be cut? (not the way you propose - hate to tell you tax cuts work - entirely different topic though) Yes.

Is the government efficient? No.

It is not the Governnment of the USA's responsibility to support citizens of other countries. It could be argued it is not the governments responsibilty to support its own people long term. If you can find it in the Constitution, I would be interestd in seeing it. I do not remember it in there.

The purpose of the government is to portect its people. It is not to ever spend its citizens dollars to support people from other countries that break its laws. ( I guess jail would be an exception. But we do not have room.)

Charity is best left to private organizations.

There is no way to get around the argument that these people are law breakers. They are here illegally. I do not care if you think it is fir or not. It is illegal. There is no argument you can give me to convince me that they have a "right" to be in the USA illegally.

And, if you think we have enough money to help ALL in the world, you are naive. Where would you draw the line? What about all the third world countries in Afica? Can the citizens of the USA afford to support all the people the are starving to death there and have no homes? What about the oppressed living under dictatorships? Can we support all of them?

I will tell you where I draw the line. . . . the Border. If you cross it legally - WELCOME. If you cross it illegally - GO HOME!

I know your opinion cannot be changed. My opinion is firm as well. I am so grateful I live in a country that allows differing opinions.

God Bless!

Once again, is it so hard for everyone here to admit the INS is a failure? It's ridiculously hard to immigrate. It takes years to legalize. Most of these workers want to come here, work, and go back home when their country is better off.

We could fix the system so that they can come here, work, and get the services they need. We could do this several ways by:

-Creating a special class of ID and taxation for immigrants, so that they can get a guest worker visa, pay a 10% income tax, and be able to get government services (medicaid, schools, and public housing)
-Then to cover any gaps in the system, we could divert funds from pork projects (a bridge connecting the Aleutian islands for example), and other wastes of money, into the social services for the states hardest hit bythe immigrant worker influx.

Zila was only trying to point out that we spend trillions on defense. Would it be so hard to scrounge several billion dollars out of that budget by simply making logical and safe cost cuts?

Pork projects are another area of money that should be put into domestic use. But I digress.

Is this wrong?

 

[Gwenyfur]

I love how people keep trying to make this about race, about mexico, about latinos...

well guess what ... there are illegal immigrants in this nation from just about every single other country on the planet....so nix on the "race card" enough is enough.

This is about more than just latinos! It's about legal immigration from *any* country not just latin america.

Again, lets look at some of the criminal acts perpetuated by illegal immigrants while in the USA


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[GraceLikeRainFallsDown]

Once again, is it so hard for everyone here to admit the INS is a failure?

We could fix the system so that they can come here, work, and get the services they need.

Zila was only trying to point out that we spend trillions on defense. Would it be so hard to scrounge several billion dollars out of that budget by simply making logical and safe cost cuts?

Pork projects are another area of money that should be put into domestic use. But I digress.

Is this wrong?

I admit it. The INS is a failure. What does that have to do with people knowingly coming into the country illegally? Just because a process is broken, does not give people the right to break the law. Until the laws are changed, illegals are illegal. There is no way around this argument.

If the majority of Americans want to losen immigration laws, then that majority needs to go through the process to change the laws so it is easier for people to get here. I do not think it will happen though since my understanding is the majority does not favor easier laws. Most people want the current laws enforced at a minimum.

Since the governments main purpose is to protect its citizens, I think defense should be where most of our money is spent. Could they cut costs . . . probably. I do not doubt there is waste. Anytime the government does something it is less than efficient.

But, even if they could find ways to cut costs on the current budget, the defense department could probably use those funds elsewhere. It is not cheap to maintain an army our size and advances in technology are very expensive. I do not think that you or I have enough information to make such decisions. New equipment must be developed all the time and old equipment is very expensive to maintain. We also need to pay our military fairly and give them good benefits.

I hate pork projects. They irk me beyond belief. I am all for cutting them all out.

But, if we save money from cutting pork or cuts to the defense dept budget, shouldn't our taxes go down. The money should go back to the tax payer. It should not be put back into an another government program that will be just as inefficient as all the others. Then citizens would have more funds and may be able to donate more to people that need help.

Again, it is not the governments job to find a way to support immigrants (legal or illegal). I do not know where people got the idea that it was the governments job to support them. I must have missed something when I studied the Constitution.

If they want to come here legally, I welcome them with open arms.

 

[irateional]

I admit it. The INS is a failure. What does that have to do with people knowingly coming into the country illegally? Just because a process is broken, does not give people the right to break the law. Until the laws are changed, illegals are illegal. There is no way around this argument.

If the majority of Americans want to losen immigration laws, then that majority needs to go through the process to change the laws so it is easier for people to get here. I do not think it will happen though since my understanding is the majority does not favor easier laws. Most people want the current laws enforced at a minimum.

Since the governments main purpose is to protect its citizens, I think defense should be where most of our money is spent. Could they cut costs . . . probably. I do not doubt there is waste. Anytime the government does something it is less than efficient.

But, even if they could find ways to cut costs on the current budget, the defense department could probably use those funds elsewhere. It is not cheap to maintain an army our size and advances in technology are very expensive. I do not think that you or I have enough information to make such decisions. New equipment must be developed all the time and old equipment is very expensive to maintain. We also need to pay our military fairly and give them good benefits.

I hate pork projects. They irk me beyond belief. I am all for cutting them all out.

But, if we save money from cutting pork or cuts to the defense dept budget, shouldn't our taxes go down. The money should go back to the tax payer. It should not be put back into an another government program that will be just as inefficient as all the others. Then citizens would have more funds and may be able to donate more to people that need help.

Again, it is not the governments job to find a way to support immigrants (legal or illegal). I do not know where people got the idea that it was the governments job to support them. I must have missed something when I studied the Constitution.

If they want to come here legally, I welcome them with open arms.

The problem is that it's all a conundrum.

I'm not denying this. Immigrants come over here and work. They don't pay taxes, and they use our facilities. If we let them come over here on a visa, and have them pay taxes so they can use government services, then we have another issue, as all of the sudden, these people are being taxed without representation.

We could possibly create a system through which guest workers could be represented in government, but I'm not sure how. I guess I'll have to study that in college, no?

The other alternative is to kick them all out. This won't work. For one, you can't seal the border. Any ways to seal the border will be draconian and inhuman. These people aren't hardened criminals for the most part. They're just people wanting a better living for their families back home.

Secondly, these people are an economically important part of society. They do fufill positions in industries that have been largely abandoned by American citizens. Most importantly, they're a mobile workforce. They'll follow the jobs, they'll follow the crops, and this is something that most American's won't do. They won't move around to follow jobs and work.

 

[irateional]

I love how people keep trying to make this about race, about mexico, about latinos...

well guess what ... there are illegal immigrants in this nation from just about every single other country on the planet....so nix on the "race card" enough is enough.

This is about more than just latinos! It's about legal immigration from *any* country not just latin america.

Again, lets look at some of the criminal acts perpetuated by illegal immigrants while in the USA


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Yes.

You do realize that the only reason we bring race into this is the latter argument you make?

As an Italian, this happened to my people when they immigrated. They saw crimes comitted by legal and illegal Italian immigrants and used it to hate Italians. They beat us, they beat the Chinese, they beat the Irish, they beat lots of minorites that immigrated here.

I'd like for once to not see history repeat itself with the latino immigrants coming into America right now.

Besides, as a Christian, I can't advocate actions which hurt people for simply trying to better themselves. I want to make the system work for everyone.

By the way. Come back with some respectable sources next time. Local newspapers would be best. Afterall, they're the ones feeling the brunt of the crimewave.

 

[Gwenyfur]

wow...the university of minnesota isn't a credible source!???

 

[irateional]

wow...the university of minnesota isn't a credible source!???

My apologies on that one.

However, prisonplanet.com isn't. Nor is a blog.

I'll get back to you on CIS. However, that's only a study pointing out that crime is more common among the sons and daughters of illegal immigrants, whom are legal citizens. This seems to point to me that improving the situation of the former might help with the latter.

Or one could simply wait. Afterall, all of the other immigrant groups eventually assimilated. It just takes time.

 

[irateional]

My apologies on that one.

However, prisonplanet.com isn't. Nor is a blog.

I'll get back to you on CIS. However, that's only a study pointing out that crime is more common among the sons and daughters of illegal immigrants, whom are legal citizens. This seems to point to me that improving the situation of the former might help with the latter.

Or one could simply wait. Afterall, all of the other immigrant groups eventually assimilated. It just takes time.

Also, the point seems to stand.

Because immigration is acrime, youths are already thrown into a criminal life. If it wasn't illegal and crossing the national border was about as easy as going across the border of Oregon and California, there wouldn't be an issue. These people wouldn't be drawn to crime.

Because what they think is "I'm already a criminal. Might as well make the best of it."
And we need to fix that.

 

[rdclmn72]

Short of building a wall, instituting draconian measures, illegal searches, ethnic-based profiling, ghettoing those with non-wasp last names and every other complication derived from harrassing the largest minority group in america, do you think it will be worth the extreme logistical cost of making it happen?

Those same illegals that make your produce affordable, that made it possible for all farm workers to have rights, that are not welcome in your churches or communities don't really make the effort to come because they like the way they are treated, they are willing to earn below minimum wage because there isn't much of a choice.

You will never convince the hispanic, legal or illegal that this is anything short of racism.

Go ahead, pray to your white or black God, be politically correct to the white minorities, legislate yourselves into even more class-action lawsuits and be willing to pay even more for getting your way.

Is it really worth it?

 

[irateional]

Short of building a wall, instituting draconian measures, illegal searches, ethnic-based profiling, ghettoing those with non-wasp last names and every other complication derived from harrassing the largest minority group in america, do you think it will be worth the extreme logistical cost of making it happen?

Those same illegals that make your produce affordable, that made it possible for all farm workers to have rights, that are not welcome in your churches or communities don't really make the effort to come because they like the way they are treated, they are willing to earn below minimum wage because there isn't much of a choice.

You will never convince the hispanic, legal or illegal that this is anything short of racism.

Go ahead, pray to your white or black God, be politically correct to the white minorities, legislate yourselves into even more class-action lawsuits and be willing to pay even more for getting your way.

Is it really worth it?

No it isn't.

And it's our fault that they have to come here. Our countries trade laws, and our efforts in the S. And Central American regions have done nothing but destroy the economies of those areas. These people are coming here because WE have made it impossible to earn a livable wage.

They come here bceause we have created an illegal drug trade that destroys governments, and takes villages and towns and turn them into drug factories, where only brute force, not rule of law reigns.