Your View on The Aerial Toll Houses (Orthodox Only Please)

[~Anastasia~]

yes. so if there is something unconfessed that the demons accuse you of, your heart's inclination is to repentance and dispassion, so you immediately turn to Christ and that dispels the demons.

Thank you!

 

[SingularityOne]

yes. so if there is something unconfessed that the demons accuse you of, your heart's inclination is to repentance and dispassion, so you immediately turn to Christ and that dispels the demons.

So, in a sense, repentance can occur after death?

How does the “toll-house” theory differ from purgatory if this is true?

I talked with my priest about it and he said that he's against the toll-house theory in that it leaves minuscule room for God’s mercy and is very much like purgatory. He says that Christ already triumphs and we don’t have to even worry about the toll-houses because Christ already defeated the demons.

 

[ArmyMatt]

So, in a sense, repentance can occur after death?

How does the “toll-house” theory differ from purgatory if this is true?

I talked with my priest about it and he said that he's against the toll-house theory in that it leaves minuscule room for God’s mercy and is very much like purgatory. He says that Christ already triumphs and we don’t have to even worry about the toll-houses because Christ already defeated the demons.

no, whether or not you make it through the toll houses is determined at death. anything that happens after death is by God's providence and/or the prayers of the Church, not the penance of the soul.

it differs from purgatory in that there is no time affiliated, it's not a third condition, it's not a punishment, and it's not only for the saved. it's actually nothing like purgatory.

your priest is right that Christ conquered, but the demons torment us now as well. and we are afflicted by the demons because God is merciful.

 

[SingularityOne]

no, whether or not you make it through the toll houses is determined at death. anything that happens after death is by God's providence and/or the prayers of the Church, not the penance of the soul.

it differs from purgatory in that there is no time affiliated, it's not a third condition, it's not a punishment, and it's not only for the saved. it's actually nothing like purgatory.

your priest is right that Christ conquered, but the demons torment us now as well. and we are afflicted by the demons because God is merciful.

So what did you mean by the souls being afflicted by demons from a prior sin, in your prior post, but the soul being turned towards repentance and dispassion. Is this one’s state before death and just a continuance afterwords, or did I misunderstand that post (I believe it was #20)?

There’s no time in the toll-house theory? What do you mean?

So, how should I simply understand the toll-house theory that isn’t this literal way that can be misconstrued (that I’m possibly understanding it as right now)?

 

[ArmyMatt]

So what did you mean by the souls being afflicted by demons from a prior sin, in your prior post, but the soul being turned towards repentance and dispassion. Is this one’s state before death and just a continuance afterwords, or did I misunderstand that post (I believe it was #20)?

There’s no time in the toll-house theory? What do you mean?

So, how should I simply understand the toll-house theory that isn’t this literal way that can be misconstrued (that I’m possibly understanding it as right now)?

souls are turned at death, not after it. after death however you were prior to actually being dead determines how you experience the toll houses.

what I mean by time is that after x amount of days, you are at toll booth 7, or by doing x amount of prayers you can speed through them.

understand it the way you do when reading anything eschatological, as being true insofar as it's the best way we can articulate it this side of the experience.

 

[SingularityOne]

souls are turned at death, not after it. after death however you were prior to actually being dead determines how you experience the toll houses.

what I mean by time is that after x amount of days, you are at toll booth 7, or by doing x amount of prayers you can speed through them.

understand it the way you do when reading anything eschatological, as being true insofar as it's the best way we can articulate it this side of the experience.

Ah, so there is no repentance after death as a change of will. The way one's will is directed before death is now one will experience life after death. Correct?

Ah, I see. So it's not literal in a formulatic way when you say "time". I see.

So, there's no way that one can dogmatize the toll-house theory in that it's not something that can be articulated fully in a way we can understand.

So, if this is the case, then the toll-house theory can be stated as this: the soul leaves the body, the demons have one last attack, however, how one was before death determines how they will experience this state of the soul leaving the body from the quality of repentance that was undertaken prior to death. God's mercy reigns over the demons, so full trust in God's mercy, in essence, could save one from even worrying about the toll-houses.

If what I stated above is correct, then isn't it better to focus on trust in God's mercy and love instead of fearing the toll-houses?

 

[ArmyMatt]

Ah, so there is no repentance after death as a change of will. The way one's will is directed before death is now one will experience life after death. Correct?

Ah, I see. So it's not literal in a formulatic way when you say "time". I see.

So, there's no way that one can dogmatize the toll-house theory in that it's not something that can be articulated fully in a way we can understand.

So, if this is the case, then the toll-house theory can be stated as this: the soul leaves the body, the demons have one last attack, however, how one was before death determines how they will experience this state of the soul leaving the body from the quality of repentance that was undertaken prior to death. God's mercy reigns over the demons, so full trust in God's mercy, in essence, could save one from even worrying about the toll-houses.

If what I stated above is correct, then isn't it better to focus on trust in God's mercy and love instead of fearing the toll-houses?

pretty much, but also the saints and angels are there to help the soul. it's the same spiritual warfare we go through now, only one last clash between good and evil in us as we die.

 

[SingularityOne]

pretty much, but also the saints and angels are there to help the soul. it's the same spiritual warfare we go through now, only one last clash between good and evil in us as we die.

I see. Thank you for helping me understand this theory more. It makes sense, but I want to stray away from overliteralizing it as I have fallen into doing in my past theological studies.

 

[ArmyMatt]

it's all good, it's heavy stuff.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Ha. I was a mess when I read Theodora with no context to understand it, and added in just the short bits from hymns and such, iirc within a year of being baptized. I spent about two months really digging and trying to understand, because while I put away the idea of physical wooden booths floating in the air, I thought that was going far enough in not "literalizing" it. But taken too far, it gives the demons FAR too much power and is far too legalistic. At least that was what was wrong with my understanding.

It's really taken a few years of mellowing a bit and reading a range of things, taken within the larger context, to reach what understanding I have now. I really liked Fr. Seraphim Rose's "The Soul After Death" because I had reached a point where it made sense and confirmed what I had come to understand. But I suppose from Fr. Matt's warnings that even that book could cause confusion if we misunderstand too much already when we read it.

I am just thankful to have the little blocks I run across now fit easily into what I understand, so it makes more sense now.

But it really actually messed me up for a while to focus on it when I wasn't ready.

 

[SingularityOne]

Ha. I was a mess when I read Theodora with no context to understand it, and added in just the short bits from hymns and such, iirc within a year of being baptized. I spent about two months really digging and trying to understand, because while I put away the idea of physical wooden booths floating in the air, I thought that was going far enough in not "literalizing" it. But taken too far, it gives the demons FAR too much power and is far too legalistic. At least that was what was wrong with my understanding.

It's really taken a few years of mellowing a bit and reading a range of things, taken within the larger context, to reach what understanding I have now. I really liked Fr. Seraphim Rose's "The Soul After Death" because I had reached a point where it made sense and confirmed what I had come to understand. But I suppose from Fr. Matt's warnings that even that book could cause confusion if we misunderstand too much already when we read it.

I am just thankful to have the little blocks I run across now fit easily into what I understand, so it makes more sense now.

But it really actually messed me up for a while to focus on it when I wasn't ready.

What order of reading would you recommend for someone who is trying to understand the theory without "literalizing it". I think I'm starting to get it a bit, but I have the habit of over-literalizing, haha... so someone who has been down that same road could be of help for a reading order or links to reliable sources on the topic.

 

[Not David]

So @ArmyMatt, we lose our free will when we die?

 

[ArmyMatt]

So @ArmyMatt, we lose our free will when we die?

nope

 

[Not David]

nope

So why there is no repentance after death?

 

[ArmyMatt]

So why there is no repentance after death?

because there is no successive time and no fallen material body that can be afflicted.

 

[~Anastasia~]

What order of reading would you recommend for someone who is trying to understand the theory without "literalizing it". I think I'm starting to get it a bit, but I have the habit of over-literalizing, haha... so someone who has been down that same road could be of help for a reading order or links to reliable sources on the topic.

I so wish I could help, but I don't think there is an "order of reading" ... unless I could say that Fr. Seraphim's book MIGHT have been helpful before Theodora. Theodora is just something that can cause huge confusion, if you've read it? I think it's best to hold off on that until after all one's questions have been answered and one is comfortable in the understanding. And maybe not even then.

The quotes from the liturgical hymns and all don't say much. Only that essentially we should be concerned about our souls after death, and that we can expect attacks from demons, trials, etc. When information is brief like that, we tend to read into it to confirm what we've already heard/understand. (I think a little like people will find confirmation of whatever they've already been taught by reading isolated verses of Scripture, so that different denominations all feel justified in their arguments.) So I think it's better to have it all EXPLAINED to us before we get those isolated bits. And we don't want Theodora being our explanation because it causes a lot of confusion (in my case at least). And it's not easy to forget it so that we can relearn something more moderate.

I listened to probably every podcast on AFR about the soul after death. A few of them outright dismissed tollhouses - sometimes completely in reaction to Throdora. But then overall they still explained the process of the demons attempting to tempt or deceive or frighten or cause the soul to despair (I suspect the demons are clever enough to know exactly what is most likely to work on each of us) ... and the help of angels (which oddly seem to often not appear quite as quickly as the demons sometimes - so if that were to happen, I fear for the conclusions a soul might reach who was very convinced of the evangelical/Protestant understanding I was brought up with - that could be terror and despair and crumbling of the faith of one who considered himself in Christ who assumed he would be immediately whisked to heaven with no intermediary state).

And I asked questions here. Often the answers revolved around "don't take it too literally" but to be honest, for me it took time to discover what that meant. But when I'd ask something more specific, as you've been doing, the answers helped little by little, each one like a single brick in a wall being slowly built.

By the time I read Fr. Seraphim, I think I pretty much had it sorted out. So it was a great comfort to me. He spends several chapters (iirc) explaining little bits of the overall understanding and especially comparing them with NDEs, so that's another aspect that helps. So many kinds of beliefs available, and when we layer them and point out what's true and what's not (compare and contrast) it helps to zero in on the truth.

I think the podcasts on AFR were overall helpful but they didn't speak with a single voice. It was again, bits I had to put together into an overall context. I can look for those episodes (and in some cases, series) if you like? But I doubt I'd have time to re-listen and comment on specifically how they fit in overall. But if you bring specific questions here, I imagine Fr Matt or someone can help? I would try.

Maybe if we had a catechetical book "read this first before reading anything else" it might help. I don't know. People are too easily fascinated with this topic, and silly discussions happen in some places (Facebook anyone? ) and then things like Theodora can produce massive confusion. Within all that, some things needs to be torn down before truth can take root. I was a victim of that. An my priest told me not to study/read certain things ... and I think he was right, and in fact I avoided those books and topics. But it's out there (often misinformed) and we get exposed to it so SOME opinion will form. Because of the world we are in (especially online) ... maybe it's better to lay it out simply for converts? I don't know. Typical wisdom is to avoid the Ladder, avoid tollhouses, etc. Who am I to question the priests? But I fell through the cracks as a result, and I can see MANY people do (witness all the errors in discussions online) so ...

We need a sane voice teaching us at some point.

AFR, and questions here in CF, and then Fr. Seraphim's book were the steps in that order that helped me at least. Problem was other things I read first (especially Theodora and FB comments) muddied the water SO much initially.

If that helps?

 

[Jude1:3Contendforthefaith]

Here's that book Anastasia was referring to by: Fr. Seraphim Rose called "The Soul After Death"


https://www.amazon.com/Soul-After-D...EA2E32X0KCR&psc=1&refRID=6NV7HCV38EA2E32X0KCR

 

[Jude1:3Contendforthefaith]

Here's a Book that might be of some assistance:

"Eternal Mysteries Beyond the Grave"
by: Archimandrite Panteleimon (Holy Trinity Publications)


https://www.amazon.com/Eternal-Mysteries-Beyond-Archimandrite-Panteleimon/dp/0884652122/ref=sr_1_1?qid=1557954174&refinements=p_27:Archimandrite+Panteleimon&s=books&sr=1-1&text=Archimandrite+Panteleimon

 

[Jude1:3Contendforthefaith]

Here's a video about Toll-Houses in the pre-schism Western Church.

Check it out :

 

[ArmyMatt]

Here's 2 Books that might be of some assistance:

"Eternal Mysteries Beyond the Grave"
by: Archimandrite Panteleimon (Holy Trinity Publications)


https://www.amazon.com/Eternal-Mysteries-Beyond-Archimandrite-Panteleimon/dp/0884652122/ref=sr_1_1?qid=1557954174&refinements=p_27:Archimandrite+Panteleimon&s=books&sr=1-1&text=Archimandrite+Panteleimon

And Also




"Stations of Torment: The Legend of Theodora and the Aerial Toll-Houses"
by: Peter W. Yancey, M.A., M.A., M.H. (Synaxis Press)

https://thoughtsintrusive.files.wordpress.com/2014/11/stations-of-torment-for-publication.pdf

Stations of Torment

Synaxis Press Home

Synaxis Press is Abp Lazar Puhalo's press, be cautious with anything from there.