Your View on The Aerial Toll Houses (Orthodox Only Please)

[Jude1:3Contendforthefaith]

Synaxis Press is Abp Lazar Puhalo's press, be cautious with anything from there.

Thanks for the heads up. Maybe I should edit that book out of the post. What do you think ?

 

[ArmyMatt]

Thanks for the heads up. Maybe I should edit that book out of the post. What do you think ?

I would

 

[Jude1:3Contendforthefaith]

I would

Got it.

 

[Jude1:3Contendforthefaith]

The Number of Toll Houses from :

Aerial Toll-Houses - OrthodoxWiki


The most detailed version of the toll-houses occurs in a vision of Gregory of Thrace, apparently from the 10th century. The demons accuse the soul at each toll-house of sins. In some cases the demon might accuse the soul of sins that they tempted her with, but it didn't comply with, or of sins that she repented for, and in that cases one of the angels, the one which was the persons guardian angel, speaks for the person, saying that those are lies, and that payment is not necessary, taking the soul to the next toll-house. If a person has unrepented sins, and does not have enough good deeds and prayers of the living to pay for them, the demons of the corresponding toll-house grab him, and take him to hades to await the final judgment. This vision recounts the toll-houses in the following order:

• At the first aerial toll-house, the soul is questioned about sins of the tongue, such as empty words, dirty talk, insults, ridicule, singing worldly songs, too much or loud laughter, and similar sins.
• The second is the toll-house of lies, which includes not only ordinary lies, but also the breaking of oaths, the violation of vows given to God, taking God's name in vain, hiding sins during confession, and similar acts.
• The third is the toll-house of slander. It includes judging, humiliating, embarrassing, mocking, and laughing at people, and similar transgressions.
• The fourth is the toll-house of gluttony, which includes overeating, drunkenness, eating between meals, eating without prayer, not holding fasts, choosing tasty over plain food, eating when not hungry, and the like.
• The fifth is the toll-house of laziness, where the soul is held accountable for every day and hour spent in laziness, for neglecting to serve God and pray, for missing Church services, and also for not earning money through hard, honest labor, for not working as much as you are paid, and all similar sins.
• The sixth toll-house is the toll-house of theft, which includes stealing and robbery, whether small, big, light, violent, public, or hidden.
• The seventh is the toll-house of covetousness, including love of riches and goods, failure to give to charity, and similar acts.
• The eight is the toll-house of usury, loan-sharking, overpricing, and similar sins.
• The ninth is the toll-house of injustice- being unjust, especially in judicial affairs, accepting or giving bribes, dishonest trading and business, using false measures, and similar sins.
• The tenth is the toll-house of envy.
• The eleventh is the toll-house of pride- vanity, self-will, boasting, not honoring parents and civil authorities, insubordination, disobedience, and similar sins.
• The twelve is the toll-house of anger and rage.
• The thirteenth is the toll-house of remembering evil- hatred, holding a grudge, and revenge.
• The fourteenth is the toll-house of murder- not just plain murder, but also wounding, maiming, hitting, pushing, and generally injuring people.
• The fifteenth is the toll-house of magic- divination, conjuring demons, making poison, all superstitions, and associated acts.
• The sixteenth is the toll-house of lust- fornication, unclean thoughts, lustful looks, unchaste touches.
• The seventeenth is the toll-house of adultery.
• The eighteenth is the toll-house of sodomy: inappropriate behavior with animals, homosexuality, incest, masturbation, and all other unnatural sins.
• The nineteenth is the toll-house of heresy: rejecting any part of Orthodox faith, wrongly interpreting it, apostasy, blasphemy, and all similar sins.
• The last, twentieth toll-house is the toll-house of unmercifulness: failing to show mercy and charity to people, and being cruel in any way.

 

[~Anastasia~]

This might be an example of taking things too literally ...

The Number of Toll Houses from :

Aerial Toll-Houses - OrthodoxWiki


The most detailed version of the toll-houses occurs in a vision of Gregory of Thrace, apparently from the 10th century. The demons accuse the soul at each toll-house of sins. In some cases the demon might accuse the soul of sins that they tempted her with, but it didn't comply with, or of sins that she repented for, and in that cases one of the angels, the one which was the persons guardian angel, speaks for the person, saying that those are lies, and that payment is not necessary, taking the soul to the next toll-house. If a person has unrepented sins, and does not have enough good deeds and prayers of the living to pay for them, the demons of the corresponding toll-house grab him, and take him to hades to await the final judgment. This vision recounts the toll-houses in the following order:

• At the first aerial toll-house, the soul is questioned about sins of the tongue, such as empty words, dirty talk, insults, ridicule, singing worldly songs, too much or loud laughter, and similar sins.
• The second is the toll-house of lies, which includes not only ordinary lies, but also the breaking of oaths, the violation of vows given to God, taking God's name in vain, hiding sins during confession, and similar acts.
• The third is the toll-house of slander. It includes judging, humiliating, embarrassing, mocking, and laughing at people, and similar transgressions.
• The fourth is the toll-house of gluttony, which includes overeating, drunkenness, eating between meals, eating without prayer, not holding fasts, choosing tasty over plain food, eating when not hungry, and the like.
• The fifth is the toll-house of laziness, where the soul is held accountable for every day and hour spent in laziness, for neglecting to serve God and pray, for missing Church services, and also for not earning money through hard, honest labor, for not working as much as you are paid, and all similar sins.
• The sixth toll-house is the toll-house of theft, which includes stealing and robbery, whether small, big, light, violent, public, or hidden.
• The seventh is the toll-house of covetousness, including love of riches and goods, failure to give to charity, and similar acts.
• The eight is the toll-house of usury, loan-sharking, overpricing, and similar sins.
• The ninth is the toll-house of injustice- being unjust, especially in judicial affairs, accepting or giving bribes, dishonest trading and business, using false measures, and similar sins.
• The tenth is the toll-house of envy.
• The eleventh is the toll-house of pride- vanity, self-will, boasting, not honoring parents and civil authorities, insubordination, disobedience, and similar sins.
• The twelve is the toll-house of anger and rage.
• The thirteenth is the toll-house of remembering evil- hatred, holding a grudge, and revenge.
• The fourteenth is the toll-house of murder- not just plain murder, but also wounding, maiming, hitting, pushing, and generally injuring people.
• The fifteenth is the toll-house of magic- divination, conjuring demons, making poison, all superstitions, and associated acts.
• The sixteenth is the toll-house of lust- fornication, unclean thoughts, lustful looks, unchaste touches.
• The seventeenth is the toll-house of adultery.
• The eighteenth is the toll-house of sodomy: inappropriate behavior with animals, homosexuality, incest, masturbation, and all other unnatural sins.
• The nineteenth is the toll-house of heresy: rejecting any part of Orthodox faith, wrongly interpreting it, apostasy, blasphemy, and all similar sins.
• The last, twentieth toll-house is the toll-house of unmercifulness: failing to show mercy and charity to people, and being cruel in any way.

This is the "Theodora" version btw. And Gregory of Thrace is not a Saint or particularly distinguished, afaik?

 

[SingularityOne]

I so wish I could help, but I don't think there is an "order of reading" ... unless I could say that Fr. Seraphim's book MIGHT have been helpful before Theodora. Theodora is just something that can cause huge confusion, if you've read it? I think it's best to hold off on that until after all one's questions have been answered and one is comfortable in the understanding. And maybe not even then.

The quotes from the liturgical hymns and all don't say much. Only that essentially we should be concerned about our souls after death, and that we can expect attacks from demons, trials, etc. When information is brief like that, we tend to read into it to confirm what we've already heard/understand. (I think a little like people will find confirmation of whatever they've already been taught by reading isolated verses of Scripture, so that different denominations all feel justified in their arguments.) So I think it's better to have it all EXPLAINED to us before we get those isolated bits. And we don't want Theodora being our explanation because it causes a lot of confusion (in my case at least). And it's not easy to forget it so that we can relearn something more moderate.

I listened to probably every podcast on AFR about the soul after death. A few of them outright dismissed tollhouses - sometimes completely in reaction to Throdora. But then overall they still explained the process of the demons attempting to tempt or deceive or frighten or cause the soul to despair (I suspect the demons are clever enough to know exactly what is most likely to work on each of us) ... and the help of angels (which oddly seem to often not appear quite as quickly as the demons sometimes - so if that were to happen, I fear for the conclusions a soul might reach who was very convinced of the evangelical/Protestant understanding I was brought up with - that could be terror and despair and crumbling of the faith of one who considered himself in Christ who assumed he would be immediately whisked to heaven with no intermediary state).

And I asked questions here. Often the answers revolved around "don't take it too literally" but to be honest, for me it took time to discover what that meant. But when I'd ask something more specific, as you've been doing, the answers helped little by little, each one like a single brick in a wall being slowly built.

By the time I read Fr. Seraphim, I think I pretty much had it sorted out. So it was a great comfort to me. He spends several chapters (iirc) explaining little bits of the overall understanding and especially comparing them with NDEs, so that's another aspect that helps. So many kinds of beliefs available, and when we layer them and point out what's true and what's not (compare and contrast) it helps to zero in on the truth.

I think the podcasts on AFR were overall helpful but they didn't speak with a single voice. It was again, bits I had to put together into an overall context. I can look for those episodes (and in some cases, series) if you like? But I doubt I'd have time to re-listen and comment on specifically how they fit in overall. But if you bring specific questions here, I imagine Fr Matt or someone can help? I would try.

Maybe if we had a catechetical book "read this first before reading anything else" it might help. I don't know. People are too easily fascinated with this topic, and silly discussions happen in some places (Facebook anyone? ) and then things like Theodora can produce massive confusion. Within all that, some things needs to be torn down before truth can take root. I was a victim of that. An my priest told me not to study/read certain things ... and I think he was right, and in fact I avoided those books and topics. But it's out there (often misinformed) and we get exposed to it so SOME opinion will form. Because of the world we are in (especially online) ... maybe it's better to lay it out simply for converts? I don't know. Typical wisdom is to avoid the Ladder, avoid tollhouses, etc. Who am I to question the priests? But I fell through the cracks as a result, and I can see MANY people do (witness all the errors in discussions online) so ...

We need a sane voice teaching us at some point.

AFR, and questions here in CF, and then Fr. Seraphim's book were the steps in that order that helped me at least. Problem was other things I read first (especially Theodora and FB comments) muddied the water SO much initially.

If that helps?

Thanks for such thorough advice. I’ll keep this in mind. Which AFR podcasts do you recommend?

 

[~Anastasia~]

Thanks for such thorough advice. I’ll keep this in mind. Which AFR podcasts do you recommend?

I'll look for them tomorrow. Please do remind me if I don't get back to this thread within 24 hours.

 

[YCGP]

Does this mean we can go to heaven before judgement day?

 

[Lukaris]

This doctrine will always seem suspicious to me and I thank God it had no role in my conversion. The Theodora “vision” seems to be a big part of it & no one will convince me otherwise. I believe much of the published criticism of this doctrine is also problematic since the rush to recklessly use words like “anathema” & “heretic” are often employed. This is not a heresy but is also not dogma. Calling other members of the church who believe this doctrine ( like saints) “heretics” is unacceptable (probably more in reckless ignorance than intent but still it has often been done).

Like many of this doctrine’s critics I do believe there is some Gnostic contamination in it. The Gnostic “Apocalypse of Paul” clearly defines “toll houses” more clearly than what is often amplified from Ephesians 6:12.(see: The Apocalypse of Paul -- The Nag Hammadi Library ). I have heard that St. Justin Martyr’s Dialogue w/ Trypho refers to toll houses, I cannot find my hard copy of that & will try again to look online.

There are accounts that the Theotokos prayed to avoid the toll houses. So it also seems that some supposed sources of support for this doctrine are suspicious too. Contrast the idea of the Theotokos praying about toll houses to an account of some monk who allegedly “did not judge anybody” & the angel tore up his papers....well obviously there is freedom to find support or skepticism on this The Monk Who Never Judged | MYSTAGOGY RESOURCE CENTER

I know a writing of St. Diadochos of Photiki is often referenced to support the toll doctrine, “If we do not confess our involuntary sins as we should, we shall discover an ill defined fear in ourselves at the hour of our death. We who love the Lord should pray that we may be without fear at that time; for if we are afraid then, we will not be able to pass by the rulers of the nether world....” (Philokalia vol.1).

St. Maximos the Confessor has this ( about 150 years later) & responded to questions about it.
“Those who have acquired perfect love for God & have through their virtues risen with the wings of the soul,will be ‘caught up in the clouds’ ( 1 Thessalonians 4:17), & will not be brought to judgment. On the other hand, those who have not acquired love in all its perfection, but have sins & virtues on their account, will appear before the court of judgment. There they will be tried as if it were by fire; their good actions will be put the balance against the bad, and if the good outweigh the bad they will be delivered from punishment.” ( Philokalia vol 1).

St. Maximos seems to deemphasize the toll tendency so I guess we can embrace it or avoid it.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Does this mean we can go to heaven before judgement day?

no, heaven is after judgment day

 

[ArmyMatt]

This doctrine will always seem suspicious to me and I thank God it had no role in my conversion. The Theodora “vision” seems to be a big part of it & no one will convince me otherwise. I believe much of the published criticism of this doctrine is also problematic since the rush to recklessly use words like “anathema” & “heretic” are often employed. This is not a heresy but is also not dogma. Calling other members of the church who believe this doctrine ( like saints) “heretics” is unacceptable (probably more in reckless ignorance than intent but still it has often been done).

Like many of this doctrine’s critics I do believe there is some Gnostic contamination in it. The Gnostic “Apocalypse of Paul” clearly defines “toll houses” more clearly than what is often amplified from Ephesians 6:12.(see: The Apocalypse of Paul -- The Nag Hammadi Library ). I have heard that St. Justin Martyr’s Dialogue w/ Trypho refers to toll houses, I cannot find my hard copy of that & will try again to look online.

There are accounts that the Theotokos prayed to avoid the toll houses. So it also seems that some supposed sources of support for this doctrine are suspicious too. Contrast the idea of the Theotokos praying about toll houses to an account of some monk who allegedly “did not judge anybody” & the angel tore up his papers....well obviously there is freedom to find support or skepticism on this The Monk Who Never Judged | MYSTAGOGY RESOURCE CENTER

I know a writing of St. Diadochos of Photiki is often referenced to support the toll doctrine, “If we do not confess our involuntary sins as we should, we shall discover an ill defined fear in ourselves at the hour of our death. We who love the Lord should pray that we may be without fear at that time; for if we are afraid then, we will not be able to pass by the rulers of the nether world....” (Philokalia vol.1).

St. Maximos the Confessor has this ( about 150 years later) & responded to questions about it.
“Those who have acquired perfect love for God & have through their virtues risen with the wings of the soul,will be ‘caught up in the clouds’ ( 1 Thessalonians 4:17), & will not be brought to judgment. On the other hand, those who have not acquired love in all its perfection, but have sins & virtues on their account, will appear before the court of judgment. There they will be tried as if it were by fire; their good actions will be put the balance against the bad, and if the good outweigh the bad they will be delivered from punishment.” ( Philokalia vol 1).

St. Maximos seems to deemphasize the toll tendency so I guess we can embrace it or avoid it.

the problem is Theodora's vision is only a big part for those who reject it.

and to say there is a gnostic influence is to say that all those saints were wrong, and not a single saint was illumined to correct the error.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Weren't the mentions in the hymns written before Theodora?

I remember one priest on AFR pointed out that the Theodora vision was from a monk who lived in an area heavily influenced by Catholicism, and suspected those ideas fed in to that vision.

If Theodora is taken out of the picture (hard to do once you've read it, especially if it's the first thing you read like it was for me) ... then it all makes more sense.

And I see THIS is the thread I was supposed to get back to. My apologies, fell asleep when I got home last night and now must get ready for work again. Hopefully I will be awake tonight. But please do remind me to look if I forget.

 

[Lukaris]

I searched the Exposition of the Orthodox Faith by St. John of Damascus long ago for this doctrine & did not find it. The hymns “attributed” to him indicate the doctrine but are those his hymns or were these tinkered with? St. John of Damascus | Hymnary.org

St. John of Damascus quotes John 5:24-30 about the salvation of the soul in his exposition. The Antiochian Church reads John 5:24-30 in the funeral service. In our service book Tone 2 of the funeral extenia reads, “Woe is me! What manner of ordeal doth the soul endure when it is parted from the body! Woe is me! how many then are it’s tears, and there is none to show compassion! Turning its eyes to the angels, it supplicates in vain; stretching out its hands to men, it findeth none to succor. Wherefore, my beloved brethren, meditating on the brevity of life, let us beseech of Christ rest for him who hath departed hence; and for our souls great mercy.”

Maybe some see toll houses here & others do not.

 

[YCGP]

If heaven is after judgement day then where do we go after the toll houses?

 

[SingularityOne]

If heaven is after judgement day then where do we go after the toll houses?

One would happen to encounter the toll houses upon death. The toll houses (from what I understand up until now) is a foretaste of one’s experience of heaven or hell. After the toll houses (which do not have a time period, per se), one will be in a state of being of soul like a “dream state” of sorts (from my research). Then, when the Second Coming happens, the final judgement will commence.

Correct me if I am wrong in this, anyone.

 

[Lukaris]

One would happen to encounter the toll houses upon death. The toll houses (from what I understand up until now) is a foretaste of one’s experience of heaven or hell. After the toll houses (which do not have a time period, per se), one will be in a state of being of soul like a “dream state” of sorts (from my research). Then, when the Second Coming happens, the final judgement will commence.

Correct me if I am wrong in this, anyone.

That sounds like something I heard referred to as some sort of “soul sleep” actually embraced by some anti toll advocates. It seems like it should be avoided.

 

[SingularityOne]

That sounds like something I heard referred to as some sort of “soul sleep” actually embraced by some anti toll advocates. It seems like it should be avoided.

It seems like there are two extremes that can be taken on this theory. Is there a possibility that both the “soul sleep” and “tollhouse” theories can go together if both not taken literally?

 

[~Anastasia~]

"Dream state"? I would be cautious. I'm not sure what that means.

Certainly it will be a different experience of existence without the body. But I would beware of any implication of lack of full consciousness.

Officially, I think we experience a "foretaste" of what we are inclined toward at the time of our death ...

 

[SingularityOne]

"Dream state"? I would be cautious. I'm not sure what that means.

Certainly it will be a different experience of existence without the body. But I would beware of any implication of lack of full consciousness.

Officially, I think we experience a "foretaste" of what we are inclined toward at the time of our death ...

Yeah, that makes sense. When I said “dream state” I meant that we would still be counsious, but in a different way that how we are pre-death.

That makes sense about the foretaste part.

 

[ArmyMatt]

no, no soul sleep.