Your View on The Aerial Toll Houses (Orthodox Only Please)

[SingularityOne]

no, no soul sleep.

Okay! Thanks for clarifying.

 

[YCGP]

Fr. Matt, could you please fill us in a little more regarding what happens after the toll houses? It would be much appreciated. I am becoming very interested in the subject and want to learn more. As far as reading about it in a book, I am thinking about what Anastasia said... how you should have a certain amount of understanding beforehand so that you are not confused.

Thanks!

 

[ArmyMatt]

you either go to paradise or hades to await the Last Judgment.

 

[Jude1:3Contendforthefaith]

Another book on the subject : The Soul After Death - By : Father Seraphim Rose

https://www.amazon.com/Soul-After-Death-Seraphim-Rose/dp/093863514X

 

[Jude1:3Contendforthefaith]

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[Jude1:3Contendforthefaith]

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[Jude1:3Contendforthefaith]

More books on the topic :

• Trampling down death by death - Fr Spyridon Bailey
https://www.amazon.com/Trampling-Death-Father-Spyridon-Bailey/dp/1785104330

• Life after death - Met Hierotheos of Nafpaktos
https://www.amazon.com/after-Death-Metropolitan-Nafpaktos-Hierotheos/dp/9607070348

• How our departed ones live - Monk Mitrophan
https://www.amazon.com/How-Our-Departed-Ones-Live/dp/088465401X

• Spiritual Counsels vol IV - St Paisios
https://www.amazon.com/SPIRITUAL-COUNSELS-VOL-IV-Family/dp/B078SS5GP5

• Life after death according to the Orthodox Tradition - Prof Jean Claude Larchete
https://www.amazon.com/after-Death-according-Orthodox-Tradition/dp/1933275626

• Eternal Mysteries Beyond the Grave

https://www.amazon.com/Eternal-Myst.../dp/0884650626/ref=cm_cr_dp_d_rvw_txt?ie=UTF8

..

 

[Jude1:3Contendforthefaith]

From : • How our departed ones live - Monk Mitrophan

https://www.amazon.com/How-Our-Departed-Ones-Live/dp/088465401X

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[Brighid]

8 just reread about the Toll Houses. Pretty terrifying...and surprising to learn that things like choosing flavorful food over bland or eating between meals means one will be tortured by demons. I don't think I have any hope ever on any day. I can't even go 5 minutes being perfect. Scary.

Anyone else care to share their view ?

 

[ArmyMatt]

it's not to be taken literally.

 

[Lukaris]

St. John Climacus, who I believe is cited to support this doctrine at times, did not encourage the average layperson to even read his Ladder of Divine Ascent. See chapter 1 line 21: https://www.carmelitepriory.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/TheLadderofDivineAscent.pdf

St. John Climacus basically is telling the average person what the Lord told the rich young man to keep the commandments ( see Matthew 19:16-19 etc. ) as St. Paul reiterates ( Romans 13:8-10). We have to watch, we have to be vigilant and what St. John the Apostle tells us in his 1st Epistle seems like a ladder of ascents ( see 1 Christian Forums. ). As Solomon said to fear the Lord & keep His commandments ( Ecclesiastes 12:13-14).

 

[Brighid]

Just want to mention that I have listened to most of Father Kosmas' (please forgive me if I've used the wrong title)lectures available on youtube on this subject and have found them very helpful.

 

[Euodius]

Aerial Tollhouses are a part of broader ancient cosmology. Alchemy (mystical rites of metallurgy) told of aerial tollhouses and the metallurgist was to learn passwords to bypass them. Masonry (mystical rites of stonemasonry) includes the learning of gibberish catechism which are purported to allow passing through tollhouses. These are both forms of Gnosticism that were attached to certain trades. The trade itself would include a means for salvation through the practice of the trade.

Some ignorant orthodox persons, especially the loudest critics of the tollhouses, confound the Orthodox teaching with the Gnostic teaching - as if that both religions had a thing called "aerial tollhouses" means that the teachings about these things were the same. Clearly they are wrong.

The Orthodox, from Cyril of Alexandria (at least) and onward, have taught the Tollhouses (Fr. Thomas Hopko says that the Tollhouses are found universally in the Church Fathers.)

First, we see in it the refutation/correction of the Gnostics. Passwords or secret knowledge can never bring salvation. However, the conquering of the passions through repentance through the mercy of the Lord does through the prayers of the Saints, etc. etc. does save.

Second, we see that, the Tollhouses are not "weird" like some modern folks (who are highly materialist and ignorant of ancient cosmology) say, but speak to a very common idea and phenomena found worldwide in the ancient world. People sometimes have experiences of death and record their experiences. The phenomena of tollhouses is apparent. Doctrines have existed about this phenomena for millennia, but there are false and true beliefs about the tollhouses. The true beliefs are found in Orthodoxy.

 

[Euodius]

Like many of this doctrine’s critics I do believe there is some Gnostic contamination in it. The Gnostic “Apocalypse of Paul” clearly defines “toll houses” more clearly than what is often amplified from Ephesians 6:12.(see: The Apocalypse of Paul -- The Nag Hammadi Library ).

See my above post. I don't believe there is contamination form Gnosticism, but correction - the same correction Orthodoxy applies to much of the world, accepting what is true of it and rejecting what is false. There's good scholarship on this question. What becomes visible in study is a Christianity engaged polemically with philosophies and religions of the world, even to the deepest esoteric levels of the mystery religions. The differences between the Orthodox and the Gnostic doctrines stand in stark contrast in the context of the ancient world.​

 

[Jude1:3Contendforthefaith]

"We can learn a lot from the life of the Virgin Theotokos (Mother of God). But let us mention for now only these two examples. She had a habit to often visit Golgotha, mount Heleon, Getsiman garden, and Bethlehem and other important place of her Son. At all those places, especially Golgotha, she prayed to God while on her knees. This is how She gave to us faithful an example how to treat the places that her Son made holy with His presence, passion and glory.

The second example She gave to us: is how she prayed to prepare for death, the separation of soul from the body, She prayed that her soul, after the separation, does not see the prince of darkness and his fields of suffering, and that She remains hidden from the dark regions and satanic power. Do you not see how terrifying is for the soul to pass through the Toll Houses? Can you not see, if she prayed like that, She who gave birth to the Destroyer of Hades, She who has terrifying power over demons! What hope do we have? This is Her great humility, she did not want to rely only on her deeds. Even less should we rely only on our deeds. We should ever more rely on God's mercy, especially we should rely on God's mercy when the soul is separating from the body."


- St. Nikolai Velimirović of Žiča and Ohrid (1881-1956 A.D.)

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[Andrewn]

I really wanted to explore this in the thread I made about Fr Seraphim Rose's book - The Soul After Death. I think he did an excellent and very straightforward job of explaining it.

I read that book.

Demons tempt us, try to deceive us, and do whatever they can to damage our souls or pull us away from God through our entire lives. When the soul departs the body and the eyes are more in the spiritual realm, we are able to see such things. And the demons don't give up trying at the moment of death. If anything, they may intensify because they are in a unique situation to frighten (or maybe tempt?) us because now we can see them.

Isn't this scenario quite similar to the ancient Egyptian Book of the dead?

Bottom line to me - don't be surprised by a last-ditch and maybe very strong attempt by the demons to capture our souls. I would hope I can also remember they are liars - whatever happens they can't be trusted to tell the truth.

Do you believe in near-death experiences where people see Christ, rather than demons?

As far as particular temptations, booths, "tolls" and all the rest - I think that's taking things too literally. I suspect what happens is tailored to each person's weaknesses, since that's how demons operate. But they have no authority and they certainly aren't our judges.

Are there different views about Toll Houses between different Orthodox denominations, for example Russia vs Constantinople? I know Fr Seraphim belonged to the Russian tradition.

I think it's true that this is potentially a spiritually perilous transition though. It only makes sense when we consider that we don't canonize every pious person who lives, partly because we don't know what happens to anyone's soul as they go through this.

There are serious consequences to this belief. What happens if someone succumbs to demonic temptation at that point?

 

[ArmyMatt]

There are serious consequences to this belief. What happens if someone succumbs to demonic temptation at that point?

it means they were never repentant of that sin.

 

[Lyrasong]

Thank you to the gentleman who shared the story and perspective in the now-closed thread.

To the young man who began that thread: no, the Toll Houses aren’t really that funny. Or maybe it’s just me, since my dad passed away recently.

 

[Not David]

Thank you to the gentleman who shared the story and perspective in the now-closed thread.

To the young man who began that thread: no, the Toll Houses aren’t really that funny. Or maybe it’s just me, since my dad passed away recently.

Sorry for your father, I reserve for myself my other comment.

 

[Lyrasong]

Thank you.