Your view on predestination

[Avid]

... have I not the right to give it to whomever I choose without consideration of anything in them or about them? Do I not also have the right to withhold it from whom I choose? Does God not have that right. Matt. 20:12-15

People generally like to think they have the power to choose and do as pleases them. Hey, Twin, I choose that you will give to me of your bazillions! How about that! I'm rich now! I just chose to get something from someone!

When I was very young, there was a TV show about a millionaire giving away a large sum to people who he determined were deserving. Now, this is not the same thing, but that fellow had the choice to give it or not, and to whom he would give it when he did! Another similar show was based more in reality, and aired more recently. This is a popular idea. In these shows was a merit issue, and a philanthropy issue.

Another TV show recently showed a construction crew rehabbing or constructing a house for a family in need. I remember a churchgoer saying that she didn't know why they didn't give HER a new house! Her house was very nice, and there was not any health issue for her living in it. She was simply covetous.

Jesus dealt with this concept, and in Matthew 20:1-16, He described it using a parable. The people who thought they deserved more than they had agreed to were envious of the ones that had made what they estimated as a better deal. He reasoned that He had given each what they were promised, and that it DID NOT HURT THEM for Him to give more to others, or the same for a different arrangement.

The resistance to the sovereignty of God, to the choices made by God, or the mercy He deals to others, is based in ENVY. It is irrational, and anyone feeling this way needs to take stock of where they stand with God. The wicked sinner calls righteous people "sinners" because they have a mercy or grace that is given by God, and that grieves them. Envy is a form of covetousness. As we extend the lust for having what belongs to someone else, we then are GRIEVED and PAINED when others have what we want!

.

 

[twin1954]

People generally like to think they have the power to choose and do as pleases them. Hey, Twin, I choose that you will give to me of your bazillions! How about that! I'm rich now! I just chose to get something from someone!

When I was very young, there was a TV show about a millionaire giving away a large sum to people who he determined were deserving. Now, this is not the same thing, but that fellow had the choice to give it or not, and to whom he would give it when he did! Another similar show was based more in reality, and aired more recently. This is a popular idea. In these shows was a merit issue, and a philanthropy issue.

Another TV show recently showed a construction crew rehabbing or constructing a house for a family in need. I remember a churchgoer saying that she didn't know why they didn't give HER a new house! Her house was very nice, and there was not any health issue for her living in it. She was simply covetous.

Jesus dealt with this concept, and in Matthew 20:1-16, He described it using a parable. The people who thought they deserved more than they had agreed to were envious of the ones that had made what they estimated as a better deal. He reasoned that He had given each what they were promised, and that it DID NOT HURT THEM for Him to give more to others, or the same for a different arrangement.

The resistance to the sovereignty of God, to the choices made by God, or the mercy He deals to others, is based in ENVY. It is irrational, and anyone feeling this way needs to take stock of where they stand with God. The wicked sinner calls righteous people "sinners" because they have a mercy or grace that is given by God, and that grieves them. Envy is a form of covetousness. As we extend the lust for having what belongs to someone else, we then are GRIEVED and PAINED when others have what we want!

.

If I had a bazillion dollars I might give you ten, dollars that is. Yeah I am just like all others, selfish and self centered. If I do give to you I do it for all the wrong reasons. I want you and others to think I am a nice guy, I want to feel good about myself or I want that pat on the back that people will give if when they find out that I gave to you. It goes on and on. Our natural instinct is that everything revolves around me. Everything I do serves me in some way. That is why it is called total depravity because our depravity has permeated every imagination, motive and thought of our hearts.


But yeah your post is right on. Well done.

 

[Avid]

... That is why it is called total depravity because our depravity has permeated every imagination, motive and thought of our hearts.

YES. The TOTAL part is that there is no part that is exempted. It does NOT mean that each of us is as bad as we could possibly be. Some take that to mean the latter.

If we are totally depraved, and there is no part unaffected, there is no part of us CAPABLE of making the good choice of seeking God, or of receiveing a promise made for our benefit. As I stated in another place, the sinner sees what the word of God says, and goes about to resist it. His Tactics and Techniques are learned and innovated for the most effective avoidance of God's salvation, and especially, His LORDSHIP over all persons and things in the whole of the universe.

... But yeah your post is right on. Well done.

Nice of you to say. Thanks.

.

 

[th1bill]

I have taken the Whole Bible view of this. God had the knowledge of exactly what I would do in every circumstance before He created the Earth. So He knew what the outcome of my life would be and therefore wrote my name into the Book Of Life. Others He also foreknew their rejection of Him and left their names out. He knew this because in Heaven, in the Spiritual realm, there is not the concept of time, as we know it.

In the realm of time as we know it, God is present here and then. Tough to wrap one's head around until the subject is extensivsly studied.

 

[JM]

We view it Scripturally.

MEEEEE to!

 

[JM]

I'm a southern baptist so I'm pretty conservative

SBC, Abstract Principles:

II. GOD There is but one God, the Maker, Preserver and Ruler of all things, having in and of himself, all perfections, and being infinite in them all; and to Him all creatures owe the highest love, reverence and obedience.



IV. PROVIDENCE
God from eternity, decrees or permits all things that come to pass, and perpetually upholds, directs, and governs all creatures and all events; yet so as not in any wise to be the author or approver of sin nor to destroy the free will and responsibility of intelligent creatures.

V. ELECTION
Election is God’s eternal choice of some persons unto everlasting life – not because of foreseen merit in them, but of his mere mercy in Christ – in consequence of which choice they are called, justified and glorified.

VIII. REGENERATION
Regeneration is a change of heart, wrought by the Holy Spirit, who quickeneth the dead in trespasses and sins enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the Word of God, and renewing their whole nature, so that they love and practice holiness. It is a work of God’s free and special grace alone.



IX. REPENTANCE
Repentance is an evangelical grace, wherein a person being, by the Holy Spirit, made sensible of the manifold evil of his sin, humbleth himself for it, with godly sorrow, detestation of it, and self-abhorrence, with a purpose and endeavor to walk before God so as to please Him in all things.

A Southern Baptist Looks at the Biblical Doctrine of Election | Founders

 

[nonaeroterraqueous]

The main problem I have is the free will. I believe everyone has the right to choose in fact i am not even sure what Calvinist are preaching here goes along with John.

I don't think you've ever really understood predestination, actually. It never says we don't choose. The problem is that by "free," when you say "free will," what you're suggesting is that the will of men (sexist terminology, I know) is something that somehow manages to slip outside of the omniscience and omnipotence of God. The problem is that the omni- prefix in those words becomes immediately false when they fail to encompass absolutely everything. If your will is free of God's control, then he cannot be omnipotent, or else you've managed to overcome that by outsmarting him, in which case he is not omniscient. You make God less of a monotheistic God, and more like a polytheistic god who just happens not to have any competition, when you do that.

My view is this: Since God is both the Creator and possessor of all foreknowledge of His Creation, this makes Him Sovereign over creation. Therefore, people, before they are created are foreknown by their Creator for heaven or hell, and therefore are metaphorically destined for either common use or noble purpose. See Romans 9. Lastly, I will attest that free will is nothing more than a perception. God alters a man's heart for Him or against Him...and there is plenty of Scripture to back that up. God directs man...not the other way around (proverbs 16:9, 20:24).

Very well said.

Anything by that blaspheming satanist John Calvin must be examined carefully.

Then ignore Calvin and just read the Bible. I became a Calvinist without ever reading a single thing written by either Calvin or any of his followers. All I did was read the Bible from cover to cover. It wasn't until very recently, when I had to identify with Calvinists to debate against Arminians that I finally read the official doctrines of Calvinism. I found everything in them quite acceptable and Biblical.

I would argue that the real underlying premise of Calvinism is that God is all-powerful and all-knowing. Every other Calvinistic doctrine stems logically from that point. If you want to call something blaspheming and satanic, you might try directing it at someone who claims that God is weaker than all-powerful, and dumber than all-knowing.

 

[Avid]

... I became a Calvinist without ever reading a single thing written by either Calvin or any of his followers...

Me too...

I remember a preacher discussing with someone visiting the Church who tried to push himself as a CALVINIST, as if that is all there is. That preacher stated he was a Christian, and didn't want to have any such label. Made the guy upset, so he didn't return. Then the preacher studied and preached on the 5 points, and agreed with them in principle.

The issue is that it is acceptable to recognize a few important points without making it your "religion." There is a lot more to scripture than just those 5 points (Armin. or Calvin.) My agreement may get me labeled as such, but I do not like "bumper stickers" on my car or any similar label on me.

I'll discuss the scriptures and make points that show forth the truth accepted by many other Christians, but without the Labels that people use to "pigeonhole" others so they can keep them in their proper category. I try not to do that to others, and don't want someone dealing with me in that manner.

PREDESTINATION is plainly stated as a principle of scripture and a work of God. To say otherwise is to deny the scripture passages that state it so plainly. Those who have God to so work in them, see it clearly as He knew what He was doing all along. One great preacher was labelled as Hyper-Calvinist to ruin his reputation with Fundamental Baptists. He stated PREDESTINATION as simply as this:

If God has saved you, Did He Do That On Purpose? Did it just happen by accident, or did God make that happen?

Not the Hyper-Calvinist he was accused of being, but one who clearly recognized the truth of scripture, and that had stopped arguing against God.

.

 

[now faith]

I have taken the Whole Bible view of this. God had the knowledge of exactly what I would do in every circumstance before He created the Earth. So He knew what the outcome of my life would be and therefore wrote my name into the Book Of Life. Others He also foreknew their rejection of Him and left their names out. He knew this because in Heaven, in the Spiritual realm, there is not the concept of time, as we know it.

In the realm of time as we know it, God is present here and then. Tough to wrap one's head around until the subject is extensivsly studied.

Since God did provide man with a choice,yet he already decided your in why in this universe would he provide a choice?

Why didn't he just toss souls out like culling potatoes?

Why would he set aside his Devine nature to walk as Christ?

What's to say he did not set aside his foreknowledge in the salvation
of man?

How do you know your name is in the Book?

If God allows us to wonder through life ,and not tell who go's to Hell why would he reveal who go's to Heaven?

Could we all be puppets of Satan,constantly seeking but never knowing the truth?

Could a God who is love watch his creation being tormented for a lifetime,after he predestined him to Hell anyway?

The entire premise of God choosing who is in the Book would eliminate the need for a saviour.
sav·ior
ˈsāvyər/Submit
noun
a person who saves someone or something (especially a country or cause) from danger, and who is regarded with the veneration of a religious figure.
synonyms: rescuer, liberator, deliverer, emancipator; More
(in Christianity) God or Jesus Christ as the redeemer of sin and saver of souls.
noun: Saviour; noun: Savior

 

[now faith]

God is perfect.
Being perfect he gave mankind a choice.
God made man in his own image.
God himself had a choice to make man or some other thing,he chose man.
Nothing without a choice of life or death is perfect,our world shows us this.
Salmon have no choice but to swim hundreds of miles mate and die.

Jesus Christ could have come unto earth with a legion of Angles.
Jesus is Emanuel God with us.
yet he set aside his divinity to walk as a man.

Why couldn't God do the same with salvation?
One man taught a doctrine,is doctrine infallible?
Matthew: 7. 7. Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: 8. For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. 9. Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone? 10. Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent? 11. If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him? 12. Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets. 13. Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14. Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. 21. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. - Bible Offline

This entire passage is based on free will.

 

[Avid]

... The entire premise of God choosing who is in the Book would eliminate the need for a savior...

Noticed the people God saves are predestined to be conformed to CHRIST and adopted by God the Father. This is for God's purpose. How can any man look at the scripture and say it is wrong?

It is not the way you described at all. If the word of God causes such difficulty, there is a problem that God will eventually correct and reconcile. It is God that we all must meet someday with all we said and did in this life.

Romans 8
29 ¶ For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Ephesians 1
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Ephesians 1
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
​

This is not a made up concept like many. It is straight out of the scriptures. It is a principle of God, and laid out in His word. Other places say similar things with different words. I just included these to show you this is no cult mentality - it is God's Holy Word.

.

 

[nonaeroterraqueous]

This entire passage is based on free will.

The passage is about will, but not necessarily free will. Believing in predestination does not negate the need for personal choice, paradoxical as it may seem. You choose faith in Christ, and without that faith no salvation is granted. The question is about whether a person's will is one magical thing that lies outside of the power of God, making it "free," and making God not omnipotent or omniscient.

Free will and predestination are not equal opposites. It's not really about the human will at all. Those who believe in predestination still believe that we all make an important choice regarding our salvation. To accept destiny is not to reject my own will. To accept predestination is to say that God is so absolutely in control of everything, that, despite the innumerable decisions made by billions of people over the years (all of which would be out of God's control if not predestined), God still ends up with history fulfilling his design, ending exactly the way he wants it. Remember, God can't be in control of human history at all if there is no predestination. You make human will free of God's omnipotence, and God loses control over the entire course of human history. It's that big. We're not talking about just one little thing, here.

 

[Avid]

If I were a bazillionare and I decided to give my wealth to some people have I not the right to give it to whomever I choose without consideration of anything in them or about them? Do I not also have the right to withhold it from whom I choose? Does God not have that right...

... Hey, Twin, I choose that you will give to me of your bazillions! How about that! I'm rich now! I just chose to get something from someone!

If I had a bazillion dollars I might give you ten, dollars that is.

No one should think Twin is stingy, or that I'm greedy. Twin doesn't know me beyond this Forum Board, and I don't know him more than that either, so He Makes My Point Perfectly!

Jesus said the following on this matter:

Matthew 7
21 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Luke 13
26 Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets.
27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.
​

Let us take the LORD at His word. If He does not know you, your Preaching, Exorcisms, Works and Acceptance of his gifts & miracles, and He does not accept you because of sharing a meal, socializing or attendance at meetings, ALL THAT IS NOT GOING TO HELP YOU IN THAT DAY...

He'll say, "I don't know where you came from, or how you think you know me! Get out of here, and there is only one other place besides HERE!"

Matthew 22
13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 25
30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
​

These are just a few of the places that state this principle. We should take heed, for, as all can see, once it is TOO LATE, it's too late!

Luke 13
25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:
​

Let us be diligent to make our calling and election sure! (II Peter 1:10)

.

 

[Sovereign Grace]

How do sinners, slaves to sin, have a free will? The will of mankind is bound by their nature. An apple tree can produce nothing but apples. A lion given the choice betwixt a gazelle or a bale of hay will choose the gazelle every time. A salmon swimming up stream to mate, lay eggs and die, do so according to their nature. Sinners, in their fallen, depraved nature, have a will that chooses freely within the confines of their nature.

Change the nature, change the will. Only God can do this, and it's called regeneration. And that and conversion of the soul aren't the same thing.

 

[th1bill]

Since God did provide man with a choice,yet he already decided your in why in this universe would he provide a choice?

Why didn't he just toss souls out like culling potatoes?

Why would he set aside his Devine nature to walk as Christ?

What's to say he did not set aside his foreknowledge in the salvation
of man?

How do you know your name is in the Book?

If God allows us to wonder through life ,and not tell who go's to Hell why would he reveal who go's to Heaven?

Could we all be puppets of Satan,constantly seeking but never knowing the truth?

Could a God who is love watch his creation being tormented for a lifetime,after he predestined him to Hell anyway?

The entire premise of God choosing who is in the Book would eliminate the need for a saviour.
sav·ior
ˈsāvyər/Submit
noun
a person who saves someone or something (especially a country or cause) from danger, and who is regarded with the veneration of a religious figure.
synonyms: rescuer, liberator, deliverer, emancipator; More
(in Christianity) God or Jesus Christ as the redeemer of sin and saver of souls.
noun: Saviour; noun: Savior

You have attempted o drown me with question over load and all I can say is when you calm down, become civil and do not seek a stupid argument I'll converse with you but not until you cool off.

 

[now faith]

You have attempted o drown me with question over load and all I can say is when you calm down, become civil and do not seek a stupid argument I'll converse with you but not until you cool off.

Bill I apologize if I offended you.
You are right I was on theology overload.

I am moving out of the Calvinism debate ,thank you for your kind response.
God Bless.

 

[now faith]

Noticed the people God saves are predestined to be conformed to CHRIST and adopted by God the Father. This is for God's purpose. How can any man look at the scripture and say it is wrong?

It is not the way you described at all. If the word of God causes such difficulty, there is a problem that God will eventually correct and reconcile. It is God that we all must meet someday with all we said and did in this life.

Romans 8
29 ¶ For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Ephesians 1
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Ephesians 1
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
​

This is not a made up concept like many. It is straight out of the scriptures. It is a principle of God, and laid out in His word. Other places say similar things with different words. I just included these to show you this is no cult mentality - it is God's Holy Word.

.

A quick friendly response last one:

I do not think of any Christians as a cult,Calvinist are Christians.

Romans: 1. 17. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. 18. For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19. Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: 21. Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 28. And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; - Bible Offline

This is the context of Paul's writing in chapter 8Romans: 8. 29. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. - Bible Offline

God turned his back on reprobate men and women,he removed his grace due to their intentional sin.

The verses in Ephesians simply mean he predestined a savior for man kind

Ephesians: 1. 5. Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6. To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. 7. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; 8. Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; 9. Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: 10. That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: 11. In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: - Bible Offline

There is no mention of the elect.

Lets agree to disagree and ask him one day face to face.

God bless

 

[iambren]

This is how I simply lay out my theology:

The experiment of Eden was a failure,Adam/Eve sinned along with their descendants and the world is deaf,dumb,blind,and at war with God.

God has every right to slap his hands together,throw all the sinners in the firey pit and walk on.

BUT,for some reason unknown to us He decided to extend His hand and regenerate a remnant of us. NOT because we were so smart,so holy,or so willing but for His own good measure. He sent out a universal call to the world that the elect with enlivened ears/hearts,those that he gave a new (unchangeable) nature that would be redeemed.

We bring NOTHING to the table of salvation. I'm just so gloriously happy He chose me.

 

[Barzel]

Hi. I only learned about predestination recently(about a week ago), and I'm confused. I would just like to know how other baptists view predestination? Thanks

In full disclosure, I forsook all denominations eleven years ago, but I still identify mostly with a Reformed Baptist/Southern Baptist viewpoint. Also, I'd like to welcome you to a topic that people have been debating for hundreds, if not thousands of years. I have seen people come to literal fisticuffs over the issue of predestination, so I encourage you to seek wisdom in love.

Now, to the issue at hand: predestination. Here's what I see the Bible has to say about it.

And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

From what I read here, I gather that God has foreknown some. It's important to note the foreknowledge mentioned here indicates an intimate knowledge. You may know Bob from down the street because you wave at him when you both go out to collect the morning newspaper, but you do not know Bob in the same way you know your parents or your spouse. God has all knowledge, but has known some intimately, as Christians.

Those that God foreknew, He predestined. Plainly, He looked out into the future and saw those who would make the choice to have an intimate relationship with Him, and so He set that decision in stone, to guarantee that all things would work together for the good of them. These things work together for their good because they are predestined to be conformed to the image (character) of His Son, Jesus, so that Jesus might be the first among many other "brethren" (family).

Furthermore, God called these people He predestined. That is, He did not make them robotic and unable to choose; it is still the choice of the person to answer the call. Of course, God knew they would answer it, so we arrive a time paradox that does not cater to our linear thinking. Because God knew we would answer the call, He justified us ahead of time, and He also glorified us. Essentially, He sees us not as we are, but as we will be--glorified in Him.

Does that mean it is not our choice? Yes, and no. We made the choice, but God knew we would make it, so He predestined it. It's a cooperation between predestination and free will.

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.

Ephesians solidifies what was said in Romans, that God chose us before He founded the world, so we were chosen by Him, but only because of the choice He knew we would make. Ephesians also further cements the idea of why God predestined us, so that we are seen as blameless before the foundations of the world, so that all our sin is forgiven; this is why we must repent of our sins constantly, but we are already forgiven of them.

In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.

This shows us something very interesting that isn't necessarily explicit in the other passages: "...we who first trusted in Christ..." This indicates that God chose us first, only by virtue of the fact He existed and acted before any of us, but we still chose Him. All He did was peek into the future and see who would choose Him, and then chisel that in stone.

Thereby, I believe in both free will and predestination. There are those who would say that God has predestined our every move (like the fact I am typing on this keyboard right now), but I do not see support for such in Scripture. What I see is that our salvation was predestined because of our choice according to our own free will, and we still have the choice to muck up our lives or not.

 

[food4thought]

This debate will go on for eternity (seriously, some on either side of the issue will probably argue with Jesus when they see Him if He tells them the opposite of their view lol), so I'll just toss out what I think and let it go unless someone wants me to clarify a point or something... so here goes:

Rom 8:29 NASB For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;

There it is. His omniscience precluded Him from being ignorant of who would receive Him and who would not from the time He held the thought of creation in His mind, so by the simple fact that He chose to create this world, and not some other world, He predestined who would be saved and who would be lost (yes, Calvinists, whether you like it or not it logically follows). But this predestination is not based upon His sovereignty, but upon His foreknowledge of how we would respond to the light He gave us.

A simple analogy will give you the basic idea: a computer software designer miraculously received the ability to see into the future. He designed a program that creates a 3D environment with a straight line moving through it. Also in this environment were tiny points, and the program caused the line to turn in a random direction whenever it intersected with one of those points. Now, the programmer can see the future, so He knows before he ever created the program which direction the line is going to turn every time it hits a point, but that doesn't negate the fact that he specifically designed the program so that the line would change direction randomly! In the same way, God designed us with the capacity to choose, and the fact that He always knew what we would choose does not negate the simple fact that He designed us with the capacity to choose!

Hope this helps.