Your view on predestination

[ThisBrotherOfHis]

Scripture has no application to those who are predestined to be saved and none to those who are predestined to hell. If a person predestined to damnation kept every law and precept and followed every teaching of Scripture exactly as written, he would still be damned to hell because God is sovereign and has predestined him to hell before the foundations of the earth. On the other hand, all the teachings and commands and warnings of Scripture are meaningless to those predestined to be saved. They will be saved whether or not they keep such teachings and commands and whether or not they take heed to the warnings of Scripture.

Also, Jesus’ sacrificial death and resurrection are also meaningless. Salvation is not really dependent upon Jesus’ atoning death. Salvation is really only dependent on being predestined to be saved. If you are not predestined to be saved, you cannot be, no matter how much you want to, no matter how much you believe in the atoning death and sacrifice of Jesus for the forgiveness of sins and seek to follow him as your Lord.

Some will argue that one predestined to hell cannot possibly keep every law and precept, or follow every teaching of Scripture. If predestination was what many claim it to be, that would be true. But it isn't. Why? Because of the second part of the scenario outlined above. There are obviously those who state a love and confession of Christ and live like hell anyway. "Then they aren't Christians!" Really? How do you know. Only God can read a heart. Regardless of how you see someone, regardless of how certain you are of his or her destiny, the simple truth is you don't know, and can't know. No one made you judge of anyone -- yet.

Some will say, "Well, hyper-Calvinists may believe that way, but I'm a Calvinist and I don't." Well, you should. Because the doctrine of predestination insists you must. If one is predestined prior to birth of one's eternal destination, then all of the above is true.

Problem: It is utterly inconsistent with Scripture, so the Calvinists came up with other doctrines to try to soften what is said above. But the essence of what is related above remains true, notwithstanding all the peripheral arguments advanced. Naturally some Calvinists say that the person predestined to salvation will persevere to the end, and will accept and have faith in the Lord Jesus and in his sacrificial death for the remission of sins. But it obviously is not the critical question, is it? The critical question remains whether or not the person is predestined to salvation or damnation.

Predestination is not what Calvinists believe it is. The only absolute definition of "predestination" is in Romans 8:29.

Romans 8, NASB
29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;​

He says through Paul that the ones who are predestined to become conformed to the image of God are those He foreknew. Foreknowledge is not predestination. It is simply "knowledge beforehand" -- that is the definition of the Greek proginosko. That is all it means. There are only five other verses that use the word proorizo,"to decide beforehand."

Acts 4:28 speaks of the death of Christ for the sins of the world as having been "predestined."
Romans 8:30 is an extension of v. 29.
1 Corinthians 2:7 speaks of the wisdom being preached at that time as having been predestined by God to be revealed.
Ephesians 1:5 speaks of us collectively as the church being adopted as sons, the result of our faith, as having been predestined.
Ephesians 1:11 speaks of us collectively as the church working the will of His good purpose in us as being predestined.

In Ephesians 1:4, we see Paul state that "He chose us in Him before the foundations of the world." Calvinists love to point to that as the definitive statement that our salvation was, indeed predestined before creation was even accomplished. But that's not what the passage says.

It says, "just as He chose us" -- collectively, the church -- "before the foundations of the world" He also predestined us to adoption. That's not the same thing as choosing us for salvation while choosing others for condemnation. It speaks of God's predestination to preserve a remnant. He has preserved a remnant of Israel. He preserves a remnant of us, the non-Jewish believers, as well.

Calvinists like to make their arguments long, convoluted and repetitious. But no matter how much they attempt to prove their point, they are mistaken. The best rule of thumb is, the simplest explanation is the best, and likely the most right. So it is with what the Bible clearly says about predestination.

 

[OzSpen]

Deleted post because of my error. Editing function is not working on CF

 

[OzSpen]

ThisBrother,

What I have posted at #82 is incorrect. However, this forum no longer gives me the opportunity to edit this post to change it to what I should have said.

This upgrade of CF software has led to the elimination of this 'edit' feature. This has been going on for weeks and it has not been fixed.

I apologise for my error in post #82. You were not using a question begging fallacy.

Oz

 

[Avid]

... This upgrade of CF software has led to the elimination of this 'edit' feature. This has been going on for weeks and it has not been fixed...

I have a work-around if you are interested. Send PM. Been dealing with the same thing here!
.

 

[now faith]

I have a few questions:
Christ became or paid our sin debt is this correct?
He was the perfect sacrifice from the foundation of the world?

He made a way for salvation by his sacrifice and eternal life?

We must believe in our heart and confess with our mouth his grace toward us?

He is God's only begotten son [born of a woman]?

As well He is God and when on earth Emanuel God with us?

Since all of us were not born yet at his sacrifice,should we know he paid for all of our sins past,present,future?

Is accepting Christ as Lord conditional up on what sins we have or could fall into?

Are we all in a continuous sin nature?

Did Adam curse all in his sin?

Was Christ the last Adam redeeming all from sin?

What was the significance of God's covenant with Noah?

Why would Christ Preach to those before the flood?

Reference:1 Peter: 3. 18. For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19. By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;1 Peter: 3. 20. Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. 21. The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: - Bible Offline

 

[Avid]

I have a few questions:
Christ became or paid our sin debt is this correct?
He was the perfect sacrifice from the foundation of the world?

He made a way for salvation by his sacrifice and eternal life?

We must believe in our heart and confess with our mouth his grace toward us?

He is God's only begotten son [born of a woman]?

As well He is God and when on earth Emanuel God with us?

Since all of us were not born yet at his sacrifice,should we know he paid for all of our sins past,present,future?

Is accepting Christ as Lord conditional up on what sins we have or could fall into?

Are we all in a continuous sin nature?

Did Adam curse all in his sin?

Was Christ the last Adam redeeming all from sin?

What was the significance of God's covenant with Noah?

Why would Christ Preach to those before the flood?

Reference:1 Peter: 3. 18. For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19. By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;1 Peter: 3. 20. Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. 21. The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: - Bible Offline

This is a number of questions that may EACH deserve a detailed sermon! If you stick with us, you will get the answers. It takes quite a while of getting good instruction to overcome so much confusion we get in Churches these days.

Romans, Chapter 8, has the answer to some of your questions. Man is sinful by the Fallen Human Nature we inherited from our father, Adam. Jesus took on human flesh to redeem humans (man.) Jesus was crucified, and spent 3 days and 3 nights in the heart of the Earth, where He preached to the prisoners there, and where He led captivity captive. That means He took the souls of the righteous dead that had died to that point (3 days after His crucifixion,) to Heaven with Him.

Peter is showing a TYPE in the baptism of Christians unto salvation, and the salvation of the people who were spared DEATH during the Great Flood. Those people (likely were completely submerged at times) were saved by floating on the flood waters. We are saved in our obedience to God, and show a good conscience toward God, through the ordinance of Water Baptism. He states that it is not getting wet on the outside that saves us (that might clean us up from the dirt of Earth and our human flesh,) but it is the obedience that washes us from sin.

You will need to provide the scripture where you are getting this "past, present and future" thing about SIN.

Romans 3
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
​

Try not to make of these scriptures say something they do not say!
.

 

[now faith]

This is a number of questions that may EACH deserve a detailed sermon! If you stick with us, you will get the answers. It takes quite a while of getting good instruction to overcome so much confusion we get in Churches these days.

Romans, Chapter 8, has the answer to some of your questions. Man is sinful by the Fallen Human Nature we inherited from our father, Adam. Jesus took on human flesh to redeem humans (man.) Jesus was crucified, and spent 3 days and 3 nights in the heart of the Earth, where He preached to the prisoners there, and where He led captivity captive. That means He took the souls of the righteous dead that had died to that point (3 days after His crucifixion,) to Heaven with Him.

Peter is showing a TYPE in the baptism of Christians unto salvation, and the salvation of the people who were spared DEATH during the Great Flood. Those people (likely were completely submerged at times) were saved by floating on the flood waters. We are saved in our obedience to God, and show a good conscience toward God, through the ordinance of Water Baptism. He states that it is not getting wet on the outside that saves us (that might clean us up from the dirt of Earth and our human flesh,) but it is the obedience that washes us from sin.

You will need to provide the scripture where you are getting this "past, present and future" thing about SIN.

Romans 3
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
​

Try not to make of these scriptures say something they do not say!
.

The past present,and future was a statement of a logical conclusion,since Christ died before we were ever born,repentance for past and present would apply on believing.

Since we were not born it would apply to all future sins yet to be committed.

Another way to perceive it would be he died for our sins.
Hebrews: 9. 24. For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: 25. Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; 26. For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

 

[OzSpen]

I have a work-around if you are interested. Send PM. Been dealing with the same thing here!
.

Thanks Avid,

But the PM does not fix the public error I made at #82, unless I'm not understanding how you use PM to rectify a public mistake.

Oz

 

[ThisBrotherOfHis]

ThisBrother,

What I have posted at #82 is incorrect. However, this forum no longer gives me the opportunity to edit this post to change it to what I should have said.

This upgrade of CF software has led to the elimination of this 'edit' feature. This has been going on for weeks and it has not been fixed.

I apologise for my error in post #82. You were not using a question begging fallacy.

Oz

Not a problem, brother. Thanks, however, for your apology, and it is graciously accepted.

 

[Avid]

The past present,and future was a statement of a logical conclusion,since Christ died before we were ever born,repentance for past and present would apply on believing.

Since we were not born it would apply to all future sins yet to be committed...

This is a widespread error that is heard in most sermons these days, and is why we have such a miserable thing going on in Churches where so much error is being preached ...

When God awakens us to our sinful condition, it is accompanied with a measure of faith to believe He is talking to us. When our heart is prepared to seek Him, and we are overwhelmed with knowledge of the sin debt hanging over our head, we respond with, "O wretched man that I am, who shall DELIVER ME from the body of this death?" At that point, all the sins we have done are hanging over our head, ready to crush us, and the weight of them will sink us to the lowest Hell.

If we do not find a remedy for this debt, we are doomed. Then, we see new sin mixing itself with every good thing we purpose to perform, out of our new concern for doing right before the LORD. Now, we need to become a new creation in addition to having the old sins of our lives REMITTED. We are desparate, and in need of a savior, so we look to our LORD who ONLY is capable of making us right with God.

Colossians 3
9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;

Romans 6
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Mark 10
21 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.

Romans 8
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

Galatians 5
24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

II Corinthians 5
17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
​

The new creation is not like the old man. He has been put away. He has been nailed to the tree, or he still has dominion over us! The new creation has the Holy Spirit of God in the driver's seat, and is taught, guided, and comforted by Him. The Holy Spirit of God helps us to crucify, mortify and put away the deeds of the flesh, and even any desire for the things that got us into such bad shape. (the saved drunkard becomes the most adamant against drinking alcohol. e.g.: Billy Sunday, etc.)

If we still desire to do things that displease God, we should go to our LORD Jesus Christ IMMEDIATELY, and seek His help to finish the work of our sanctification. If you we are satisfied that we had some conviction from God that we were bad, and think that is salvation, we will be left wanting.

Never rest in convictions till they end in conversion. This is that wherein most men miscarry; they rest in their convictions, and take them for conversion, as if sin seen were therefore forgiven, as if a sight of the want of grace were the truth of the work of grace.
Matthew Mead (1629−1699)

Mere outward reformation differs as much from regeneration as white−washing an old rotten house differs from pulling it down and building a new one in its place.
Augustus M. Toplady (1740−1778)

We want to be purified as well as pardoned. Justification without sanctification would not be salvation at all. It would call the leper clean, and leave him to die of his disease.
Charles Haddon Spurgeon (1834−1892)

It is hard for a man to let go a hope of heaven, on which he hath once allowed himself to lay hold, and which he hath retained for a considerable time. True conversion is a rare thing; but that men should be brought off from a false hope of conversion, after they are once settled and established in it, and have continued in it for some time, is much more rare.
Jonathan Edwards (1703−1758)

During the last two or three generations the pulpit has given less and less prominence to doctrinal preaching, until today − with very rare exceptions − it has no place at all.
Arthur W. Pink (1886−1952)
​

Do not be satisfied with a counterfeit religion, but seek the LORD to have freedom from the very lusts and desires that got us into pursuing sin with such fervor. Pursue Righteousness. Persevere in the LORD. The Apostle John says the following as he is talking about Jesus Christ:

I John 3
3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
​

If you HOPE in Christ, seek God to help you be purified as Christ is pure.
.

 

[ThisBrotherOfHis]

If you HOPE in Christ, seek that God help you be purified as Christ is pure.

And what do we do when we sin, which ultimately we will, given we are still in the flesh?

 

[Avid]

And what do we do when we sin, which ultimately we will, given we are still in the flesh?

This question was answered in my post. Read and believe the scriptures on the subject:

II Peter 2
19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Romans 8
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 ¶ And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

I John 2
15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

I John 3
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
​

...let no man deceive you...(I John 3:7)
.

 

[ThisBrotherOfHis]

That didn't answer my question. It simply revealed that you misinterpret Scripture.

Jesus told Peter that when a friend wrong's him, forgiving him seven times isn't no where near enough. Jesus said to forgive seventy times seven -- and He didn't mean you can stop forgiving at 490 times, either.

Do you think Jesus has a lower standard of forgiveness than He prescribes for His followers?

 

[Avid]

And what do we do when we sin, which ultimately we will, given we are still in the flesh?

... If we still desire to do things that displease God, we should go to our LORD Jesus Christ IMMEDIATELY, and seek His help to finish the work of our sanctification. If you we are satisfied that we had some conviction from God that we were bad, and think that is salvation, we will be left wanting...

Your answer is in the post to which you replied.

It is between you and God to deal with the scriptures in my last post.
.

 

[Avid]

That didn't answer my question. It simply revealed that you misinterpret Scripture...

Seek ye FIRST the Kingdom of God...

The CALL has gone out. God promised to call everyone, but for most, it is not effectual. The main reason is because they are not interested in seeking the opposite of what they have always desired. They are seeking things they might enjoy in this life, and The CALL is to seek things that are invisible to them. Unless and until God works mightily in them, there will not be anything different.

Hebrews 4
2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

Job 24
13 ¶ They are of those that rebel against the light; they know not the ways thereof, nor abide in the paths thereof.

Ezekiel 33
11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

Leaving of all is a hard matter; yea, a harder matter than many are aware of.
John Bunyan (1628−1688) ​

A significant part of coming to Christ for salvation is turning from the world (especially the religious world,) and turning to the straight and simple truth in the scriptures. God's Holy Spirit uses the Word of God to teach us of God the Father, of His Son − Jesus Christ, and of His precious truth that we need. Many seek this, but few people ever find the Strait Gate and the Narrow Way that leads to life. Most will never enter at the Door of the sheepfold. (John 10:1−14)

Matthew 11
12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.

Truth is the most glorious thing! The least filing of this gold is precious. What shall we be violent for, if not for truth?
Thomas Watson (1620−1686)

There are innumerable difficulties in the way; such as few conquer: most of them that try have not resolution, courage, earnestness, and constancy enough; but they fail, give up, and perish. The difficulties are too many and too great for them that do not violently press forward. They never get along, but stick by the way; are turned aside, or turned back, and ruined. Matt. vii. 14.
Jonathan Edwards (1703−1758)

Proverbs 3
11 My son, despise not the chastening of the LORD; neither be weary of his correction:
12 For whom the LORD loveth he correcteth; even as a father the son in whom he delighteth.

Matthew 7
13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Luke 13
24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

All the world is against him that shall be saved.
John Bunyan (1628−1688) ​

Coming to Christ for salvation requires that we come to the right person in the right way. With all the difficulty that has been laid in the way, combined with the trouble we give our own selves, it is a wonder and a miracle of God that ANYONE ever gets to the Strait Gate, much less is made one with Christ in the salvation of his soul.
.

 

[ThisBrotherOfHis]

So you're saying you don't sin. Right.

 

[OzSpen]

So you're saying you don't sin. Right.

How does this reply deal with the OP?

 

[ThisBrotherOfHis]

How does this reply deal with the OP?

Perhaps I've misinterpreted Avid's line of thinking (though I don't believe I have), it seeming to me that Avid is claiming that sin in the Christian negates the fellowship with God, but also the relationship, which I contend is impossible. If I've misunderstood, perhaps you or Avid can correct my error.

 

[Avid]

Hi. I only learned about predestination recently(about a week ago), and I'm confused. I would just like to know how other baptists view predestination? Thanks

God knows, and predestines, certain things or all things, according to the good pleasure of His will. He is sovereign and we should look upon that with awe and fear.

Romans 8
29 ¶ For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
​

God did not just predestine, but predestined precisely what should be! Those in whom God works this way are predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son. This is why the early followers of Jesus were called Christians. They were "Christ Ones," or "Like Christ," or "Little Christs."

This did not sneak up on God, and He find Himself surprised by all these people trying to emulate His Son. He did not survey the Earth, and find a number of people who were struggling to do what they had heard that Jesus did. God purposed to have the image of Christ show forth in the lives of the people He called out for Jesus' name's sake.

These people were predestined to show forth the righteousness of Christ, wrought in their hearts, and do this in a world that was wicked. They were strangers in their own homes, homeland, and the world into which they were born.

People are confused and troubled as they say that, "I know Joe, and how he and I used to go out, and ... This is not the way I remember him. I'm not going to bother to even invite him anymore!"

Galatians 6
14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world. ​

.

 

[OzSpen]

Not a problem, brother. Thanks, however, for your apology, and it is graciously accepted.

In a PM, Avid has been so helpful in showing me a way to edit when the regular edit function does not work on CF. This is what is happening now. I wish someone would fix it.

Oz