Your spouse is in hell

[The_White]

In reading throught these posts and trying to think of a way to answer the OP the only way I could do it was to reverse the situation.

If I went to hell and my most loved person had a choice of coming to hell with me or staying in heaven I would want them to stay away from hell at all costs. By the same token I think that my loved one, knowing about hevean and hell from my trying to convert them would want the same for me. Therefore it would be dishonoring them for me to choose hell and so it would be better for all concerned if I honored my loved one and myself and God by staying rather than dishonoring the same by going to hell.
Equally so (as stated in the first part) with situations reversed it would be better for my loved one to stay although the ideal situation would be both getting to heaven.

Please excuse any spelling errors or inconsistancys here, it is late and I should be in bed.

 

[Buzz Dixon]

If your wife slaps you as punishment for something you did not do, do you kill her slowly over a period of 5 years using the most nefarious torture implements you can think of?

The more proper analogy is that you tell your wife not to wash the toaster, especially if it is plugged in, and she washes it anyway and electrocutes herself.

Whose fault is that?

 

[Buzz Dixon]

So, Buzz,you think it's inevitable that some spouses would be left behind? Where is God's love in that? God sounds kind of cruel.

God's love in that is that salvation has been made freely available to all who will accept it. The cruelty, when one thinks about it, is the spouse who refuses to accept that free gift of salvation and then expects the other spouse to refuse it as well.

God will not force compliance.
But God is good, and He will separate the sheep from the goats. Other than Christ, no competant human being has ever lived a sinless, blameless life. The ones who acknowledge their sin and accept God's forgiveness receive salvation; the ones who refuse to acknowledge their sin -- let's say through stiff-necked pride and hubris -- are excluded by their own choice.

 

[HarleyD]

I lurk out here but rarely get involved in such discussions here but I though that I should point out the Calvinist version of this discussion. Man doesn’t choose whether he goes to Heaven or Hell. Wouldn’t that seem to be an easy choice? Men (and women) are already bounded for Hell and God rescues (some of) them out of Hell. Why God doesn’t rescue all is up to God’s sovereign calling.



As for why you may go to Heaven and your wife would go to Hell a similar question was asked our Lord Jesus but put another way. Some Sadducees came to Jesus asking, according to Jewish custom, that if the husband died leaving no children and each of his brothers in turned married her and died who wife would she be in the resurrection?



Our Lord Jesus answered, “You are mistaken, not understanding the Scriptures nor the power of God. For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven.” Matt 22:25-30



If you believe Heaven to be like something here on earth I would concentrate on the first sentence of our Lord Jesus’ answer.

 

[Lycan T]

The more proper analogy is that you tell your wife not to wash the toaster, especially if it is plugged in, and she washes it anyway and electrocutes herself.

Whose fault is that?

Had I all power -- as you say your god does -- i would take away either the toaster or turn off ther power. Either way -- I would save the one I loved!

 

[Mekkala]

People in Heaven realize that, since the people in Hell did not strive for good and for truth as they ought to, they could never be with God and, even though many did not have an explicit knowledge of Him as the Triune Being He is, rejected those things which He is, and which all of us know (good, truth, love, beauty).

Lifesaver, if this were true, then that would mean that all humans who accept and value good, truth, love, and beaty are destined to go to Heaven.

Well, I strive always for good, I spend most of my waking hours searching for truth as I can best discern it, I revel in love, and it is the beauty of the world around me that makes my life worth living. Am I destined for Heaven? I do not think that you would say I am, since I do not believe in God.

 

[Mekkala]

What's sad is that your loved ones would rather have you go to hell with them than to find out how they and you can go to heaven!! I sure wouldn't want to be in heaven with people who have such little regard for my soul and their own as well. If you want to spend eternity with people such as those, then you can be assured that will.

Carico, I know I'm wasting my breath on you, but please, answer me one question:

Do you believe that we who are not Christians have chosen that path perversely, knowing that it is wrong, but rejecting God because we do not want to go to Heaven?

Let us assume for a moment that your religion is right. Is it possible, in your opinion, for anyone to disbelieve because they honestly do not know that your religion is true?

 

[Buzz Dixon]

Had I all power -- as you say your god does -- i would take away either the toaster or turn off ther power. Either way -- I would save the one I loved!

But then you would be denying her the free will to make toast.

That's an easy enough call on a very superficial level, but apply it across the board to all aspects of human life and you soon reduce human beings to nothing more than hand-puppets.

What would be a more hellish existence?

Denied the ability to choose between right and wrong?
Held accountable for wrong choices?

 

[Philosoft]

The one thing I keep hearing (well, reading, actually) in this thread and others in this forum is self-centeredness bordering on theological infantilism.

Many folks seem to be posting "I want to do whatever I want and I don't want to be held accountable for any bad choices I make or suffer the consequences of any bad actions and if God won't give me everything I want when I want it then poo on Him!"

You folks aren't talking about God, you're talking about Santa Claus.

Rick Warren's book THE PURPOSE DRIVEN life opens with this statement: "It's not about you."

I'm not at all surprised that there are so many miserable people in the world today. They're worshipping the false god of Self.

Might I suggest you not try to summarize the dozens of different opinions on a four-page thread into one post? Either that or do a better job. This is the worst kind of strawman, because it is equivalent to precisely none of the foregoing arguments from several non-Christians - and is utterly dissimilar to most - and it presents an absurdly easy target for criticism.

 

[Philosoft]

What would be a more hellish existence?

Denied the ability to choose between right and wrong?
Held accountable for wrong choices?

How in the world do you presume to reduce the choices afforded an omnipotent being to this dichotomy?

Folks, I'm begging. This God-human analogy stuff has got to stop. There is so much critical information lost in the translation as to reduce any comparison to absurdity.

 

[Lycan T]

But then you would be denying her the free will to make toast.

That's an easy enough call on a very superficial level, but apply it across the board to all aspects of human life and you soon reduce human beings to nothing more than hand-puppets.

What would be a more hellish existence?

Denied the ability to choose between right and wrong?
Held accountable for wrong choices?

Had I taken away the toaster...the person would never know about toast...How many things are possible that you know nothing of?? Do you miss anything you don't know about?? (Ie peeps who live without running water -- they don't miss it)

Again...the question -- Will you be happy in heavan ...knowing your loved ones are in hell?

 

[Lycan T]

How in the world do you presume to reduce the choices afforded an omnipotent being to this dichotomy?

Folks, I'm begging. This God-human analogy stuff has got to stop. There is so much critical information lost in the translation as to reduce any comparison to absurdity.

I can reduce it, because its only a human idea of a supreme being...its not real -- therefore, drawing a comparison to something that we can all agree on (IE the love of a parent)

 

[Buzz Dixon]

There is so much critical information lost in the translation as to reduce any comparison to absurdity.

Well, now, I agree with that!. That's what I find amusing about so many (kindly note my use of the word "many" as opposed to "all") on this thread and others where the poster/s presume they could design a better Universe than God can.

Folks, one of the laws of sets in mathematics is that no element in a set can describe the entire set.

We are elements in the set that's know as the universe.

The universe is a sub-set of God.

People who presume they could build a better universe are flying in the face of math and logic.

But then, that's why Vegas exists...

 

[Philosoft]

Well, now, I agree with that!. That's what I find amusing about so many (kindly note my use of the word "many" as opposed to "all") on this thread and others where the poster/s presume they could design a better Universe than God can.

Well, no, that's not the flip-side of my criticism. We merely discuss design via a hypothetical intelligent designer on the basis of our understanding of intelligence. If the counterargument is that God has a different kind of intelligence, then you forfeit the ability to understand God at all.

Folks, one of the laws of sets in mathematics is that no element in a set can describe the entire set.

We are elements in the set that's know as the universe.

The universe is a sub-set of God.

People who presume they could build a better universe are flying in the face of math and logic.

But then, that's why Vegas exists...

Aaaaaand you respond directly to my post about flawed analogies with an even more flawed analogy. Buzz, thy name is irony.

 

[Buzz Dixon]

It's not flawed at all. It points out that we humans are hopelessly inadequate and incapable of judging God. You (rhetorical) are free to accept that or reject it as you wish.

 

[silverflare]

If I went to hell and my most loved person had a choice of coming to hell with me or staying in heaven I would want them to stay away from hell at all costs. By the same token I think that my loved one, knowing about hevean and hell from my trying to convert them would want the same for me. Therefore it would be dishonoring them for me to choose hell and so it would be better for all concerned if I honored my loved one and myself and God by staying rather than dishonoring the same by going to hell.
Equally so (as stated in the first part) with situations reversed it would be better for my loved one to stay although the ideal situation would be both getting to heaven.

So if you were climbing Mt. Everest your loved one, and your spouse broke her leg, and you knew that if you helped carry her back to camp you would never make and both die, but if you went on without her you would live and she would die, and she said, "Go on without me. Please. Save yourself!" you would say "Ok."? Wow.

 

[mynameisholly]

I think that once you get in heaven you won't really worry about them and plus, God gave his only son for you

 

[slayer-2004]

I think that once you get in heaven you won't really worry about them and plus, God gave his only son for you

so basically god takes away free will in heaven then ?

There goes your argument to the omnibenevolent god sending people to hell . Out the window it flies .

 

[silverflare]

The more proper analogy is that you tell your wife not to wash the toaster, especially if it is plugged in, and she washes it anyway and electrocutes herself.

Whose fault is that?

Clearly that is a ridiculous analogy. I don't understand how so many Christians think that atheists know that Christianity is the right way, is the Truth, is the path to true salvation and seem to reject it anyway. Do you really think that just because a large group of people tell us something, that we are going to believe it without questioning it? In other words, just to take a leap of faith not because we think we should, but because you're telling us we should.

Your analogy would be better if the husband said that she shouldn't ever move the toaster (which she owns), because surrounding the toaster are puddles of invisible water in every direction and she will electrocute herself. She finds this to be ridiculous and thinks it would be more convenient if she moved the toaster to the opposite side of the counter, and does so. If she gets electrocuted anyway, isn't it kind of ridiculous to say it's her fault?

 

[silverflare]

I think that once you get in heaven you won't really worry about them and plus, God gave his only son for you

Clearly you are missing the entire point of this thread. We are not debating whether or not you will care about such things in Heaven. Clearly once there, everything will be perfect, blah blah blah.

Here again is the question as I rephrased it earlier:

So you wouldn't mind having a lobotomy of the grandest scale, so to speak? At the entrance to Heaven, an angel says to you: "Hey, good job, you got into heaven. I am sorry to inform you that your spouse did not, though. However, if I gain you admittance to Heaven, you will forget all about the damnation of your spouse. Is this ok with you?" you would say yes?