Your spouse is in hell

[Philosoft]

It's not flawed at all. It points out that we humans are hopelessly inadequate and incapable of judging God. You (rhetorical) are free to accept that or reject it as you wish.

I don't get it. Math has approximately nothing to do with the way we judge design.

Mammal eyes are flawed because, ostensibly being organs designed to capture photons and turn them into electrical signals, the orientation of the photoreceptors is such that it prevents a significant portion of the light from being absorbed. Any justification that God had a reason for doing that is going to 1) stand our conception of intelligence (viz. design) on its ear; 2) be rather blatantly ad hoc.

 

[CSMR]

So now comes the question : how can you enjoy eternal bliss in heaven knowing your spouse is suffering eternal damnation ? How can you sit up there in your happy little cloud with the knowledge that the one you love is being tormented forever ? Is true heaven a possibility in this scenario ?

Heaven is not to be understood in terms of earthly bliss, but only in terms of our true aim of knowledge and love of God. If we understand heaven as a pleasurable reward for good work, in the manner of giving sweets to children for good work, we have completely misunderstood it. Heaven has to be understood spiritually, that is in the existential desire for rigteousness.

This is the meaning of Luke 14:26: If any man come to me, and hate not his father and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, moreover and his own life, he cannot be my disciple. We must understand that our life with its loves and pleasures are of no worth and value instead love of God. (NB I meant "value the love of God" not love God, and this valuing does not annihalate any loves which are not so valued.)

Hell is not a place one is sent to. Hell is a separation from God. One chooses separation from God.

Absolutely. Hell has to be understood as a choice of a life which does not hope for anything beyond taken by valuing only the things of this world.

 

[silverflare]

So the consensus from the Christians seem to be "I would still choose to go to Heaven, not minding having the thoughts of my spouse burning in hell erased from my mind."

Perhaps the moral highground that Christians seem to always hijack should be properly in the place of non-Christians?

 

[Chrono Traveler]

So the consensus from the Christians seem to be "I would still choose to go to Heaven, not minding having the thoughts of my spouse burning in hell erased from my mind."

Perhaps the moral highground that Christians seem to always hijack should be properly in the place of non-Christians?

Personally, I would rather jump into a swimming pool filled with double edged razor blades than spend a forever without my spouce..

 

[The_White]

So if you were climbing Mt. Everest your loved one, and your spouse broke her leg, and you knew that if you helped carry her back to camp you would never make and both die, but if you went on without her you would live and she would die, and she said, "Go on without me. Please. Save yourself!" you would say "Ok."? Wow.

I have watched WAY to many adventure films and both people always survive so if I thought there was a chance for both to survive I would try to take it no matter how slim.

So the consensus from the Christians seem to be "I would still choose to go to Heaven, not minding having the thoughts of my spouse burning in hell erased from my mind."

Perhaps the moral highground that Christians seem to always hijack should be properly in the place of non-Christians?

No I think it is more, it would pain me greatly but it would pain everyone concerned less if I went to heaven. And hey, I have to admit that sometimes the nono-Christians do have the 'moral highground' over a lot of Christians but I don't think the answers here are clear cut enough for that to be the case today.

 

[Lycan T]

If in heaven, your god is going to make you forget your loved ones in hell...could he not simply erase the memory od sin and unbelief from my mind? I mean if he/she/it can erase one memory -- why not another. I mean...really, if god loves everyone the same, and is as smart as you all say it is, don't you think your god could have came up with an idea to get eveyone to heaven?

 

[The_White]

Which eliminates free choice. If I have 2 choices, either do one thing or do the same thing it really isn't choice is it?

 

[slayer-2004]

Which eliminates free choice. If I have 2 choices, either do one thing or do the same thing it really isn't choice is it?

First of all non-believers do not reject God , they do not believe in him AT ALL . One cannot reject what they dont even know exists . Thats like me telling you that you are rejecting my lemon bannana bogo God and therefore are choosing to enter the eternal lake of non-lemony freshness , you dont even believe me , you cant reject me .

Second of all Free will and free choice has absolutly nothing to do with forgiveness . I cannot count how many times I have had to say this self evident fact ... I can forgive people for things they have not asked me for forgiveness . I dont need some apology to forgive someone , Why does God ? Are you saying your omnimax god is incapable of doing something I can do with ease ?

If God can just erase everyones memory in heaven , he could easily do that to non-believers as well and forgive them anyways since free will doesnt interfere with forgiveness .

 

[Buzz Dixon]

I can forgive people for things they have not asked me for forgiveness .

That's not forgiving someone, it's refusing to take action.

Mind you, refusing to take action may very well be the correct moral/ethical choice in any given situation, but it's not forgiving, it's enabling.

12 step programs require their adherents to ask for forgiveness of people they have wronged (with the exception of where asking for forgiveness would cause harm. This is as much for the 12 stepper as it is for the wronged person.

Being willing to forgive is good, but actually forgiving (i.e., letting a person who feels remorse know you are not holding their transgression against them) is much, much better.

 

[XXXChurch]

Gosh, talk about a question...in Response to question #1

I can enjoy it because in the Scriptures it is said that there will be no more tears and be no more sorrow. So based on this...gosh its a hard question to think about, as one that is about to get married. God would comfort me in this, and I know that my wife had made the decision to not live for God. It would have been her choice, no matter how much I would have hated it, it was hers, the choice that God gives all of us.

Is true heaven a possibility in this scenario ?

Of course it is. When you have the maker of heaven and earth at your side in heaven, thats heaven. Don't forget, He lost his life, and even was betrayed by those he loves. His love his His people, his creation. But you know what? His promises are still true! He is the same yesterday and forever and when he said that there will be no more tears or sorrow in the end, I take him at his word.

If you truly are a christian and you love one another as god loves you , then how can you sit in your state of bliss when anybody is in hell ? If you are ffollowing gods law , is heaven a true possibility in any scenario ?

I dont understand your asking this, since the previous questions asked this indirectly.

I can sit in blissness, because I did what God wanted, He wanted me to serve him with all my heart soul and mind.

 

[IntimateFriend]

Assume that you and your spouse have known each other since you were 5 , and you have always loved each other since you were 17 . Your spouse was raised as a buddhist , and you were raised as a christian . You tried to convert him/her a couple times , but you both eventually realized that its best to be tolerant of each others religion , because you love each other for who you are .

You grew old together and both died in your sleep the same night .

You both arrived at heavens gate , but your spouse was not allowed into the gates of heaven , and God send him/her into the depths of hell .

God gave you a choice , heaven or hell with the one you love , you chose God reluctantly because you know that you wouldnt be together in hell anyways , satan would isolate you .

So now comes the question : how can you enjoy eternal bliss in heaven knowing your spouse is suffering eternal damnation ? How can you sit up there in your happy little cloud with the knowledge that the one you love is being tormented forever ? Is true heaven a possibility in this scenario ?

___________________________

Question 2 : If you truly are a christian and you love one another as god loves you , then how can you sit in your state of bliss when anybody is in hell ? If you are ffollowing gods law , is heaven a true possibility in any scenario ?

I don't really like your argument. How can a Christian not share the good news to the person whom he loves when he knows that separation from God is the result of those who have not committed their life to Christ Jesus. This shows me that the husband did not really love his wife. True Christianity is intolerant...it is the only way to life everlasting. The Bilbe promises us that " Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved- you and your household" Acts 16:31. God wants all to be saved. I do belive in the power of prayer, if the husband prayed all of his life for his wife to get to know the Lord...I do believe that his wife could have been saved. Besides that the Bible talks about people who are married to a unbeliver that if they live godly life and show true love, the outcome is the salvation of the unbelieving spouse. I have not yet known any person who is married to an unbeliever who live a true christian life that their spouse did get to know the Lord as a result. This is how my unbelieving dad got saved. Jesus said that if you only have a mustard seed kind'a faith you can move moutains... how much more if you have mountain-size faith.

Another thing, when we get to heaven God don't give us a choice, the choice has been made here on earth. Your argument my friend in the Lord is only fictitious. God commanded us His children to teach all nations His everything He has taught us. It is our responsibility to share the gospel that people might be saved. If we don't do this we might get to heaven but suffer loss.

How can I enjoy heaven knowing that some of my family members and friends is not with me? Well, with logic I cannot really enjoy heaven. I have a relative who is in hell because I did not share the gospel to him when I had a chance. He commited suicide years ago. I deeply regret for not sharing the good news to him. One thing I know though that God promised that He will wipe away my tears. Everything will be swallowed up by the mercy of God through Jesus Christ. This present heaven and earth will be purge by God. We will live in a new heaven and a new earth. My friends all of our mistakes will be covered by the blood of Jesus Christ.

I don't have all the answers to this argument but one thing I know God loves me, and I have committted my entire life to Him that many people could know Him through my life. How I hope that every person would be there in heaven. Love ya all!

 

[XXXChurch]

I don't really like your argument. How can a Christian not share the good news to the person whom he loves when he knows that separation from God is the result of those who have not committed their life to Christ Jesus. This shows me that the husband did not really love his wife. True Christianity is intolerant...it is the only way to life everlasting. The Bilbe promises us that " Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved- you and your household" Acts 16:31. God wants all to be saved. I do belive in the power of prayer, if the husband prayed all of his life for his wife to get to know the Lord...I do believe that his wife could have been saved. Besides that the Bible talks about people who are married to a unbeliver that if they live godly life and show true love, the outcome is the salvation of the unbelieving spouse. I have not yet known any person who is married to an unbeliever who live a true christian life that their spouse did get to know the Lord as a result. This is how my unbelieving dad got saved. Jesus said that if you only have a mustard seed kind'a faith you can move moutains... how much more if you have mountain-size faith.

Another thing, when we get to heaven God don't give us a choice, the choice has been made here on earth. Your argument my friend in the Lord is only fictitious. God commanded us His children to teach all nations His everything He has taught us. It is our responsibility to share the gospel that people might be saved. If we don't do this we might get to heaven but suffer loss.

How can I enjoy heaven knowing that some of my family members and friends is not with me? Well, with logic I cannot really enjoy heaven. I have a relative who is in hell because I did not share the gospel to him when I had a chance. He commited suicide years ago. I deeply regret for not sharing the good news to him. One thing I know though that God promised that He will wipe away my tears. Everything will be swallowed up by the mercy of God through Jesus Christ. This present heaven and earth will be purge by God. We will live in a new heaven and a new earth. My friends all of our mistakes will be covered by the blood of Jesus Christ.

I don't have all the answers to this argument but one thing I know God loves me, and I have committted my entire life to Him that many people could know Him through my life. How I hope that every person would be there in heaven. Love ya all!

Well said. I didn't see the argument from this standpoint. I too have been in the situation where I did not share the Good News with my friend and she committed suicide at the innocent age of 16.

I have to say it, if I actually married a buddist (wouldn't but okay)...I would be praying for her daily for God to use me to show her the way to Christ.

I appreciate the way you expressed yourself, it allowed me to see another side, and I concure with what you said.

 

[Chrono Traveler]

Yea, Im sure my spouce and other loved ones would want me to be "happy" and go to heaven. The problem is THEY ARE MY HAPPINESS, and nothing else is important to me as the relationships I have here on earth now.

If there is a heaven, if there is a god, there will be more than time for everyone to be with him in afterlife. So love what you have here NOW.

 

[gvhe's uyahi]

I dont believe in heaven or hell but I'll play along.
If there was a god who told me I could go to heaven but my wife had to go to hell I would beg the god to switch places. I would rather go to hell and have my wife go to heaven. Honestly she is the better person between us two. I don't know why any sane god would prefer me in heaven over her. But if the god wouldn't do that then I would ask to go to hell too because I could never be happy in heaven knowing my wife was in hell and, I would rather be in hell with her even if we couldn't see one another than to be in heaven without her.

 

[CSMR]

So you don't believe in hell, but still feel you can use the word in order to abuse it and express a romantic sentiment?

 

[Chrono Traveler]

So you don't believe in hell, but still feel you can use the word in order to abuse it and express a romantic sentiment?

Hes leveling with the question.

I don't really believe in hell either, but Im gonna state my feelings on the matter as if I did.

 

[silverflare]

Indeed, such is the reason why this thread exists: to show the paradox involved in the existence of heaven. Consider just for a second that heaven does not exist, or if it does, everyone is gained admittance. You no longer have such paradoxes to deal with.

 

[Philosoft]

That's not forgiving someone, it's refusing to take action.

Mind you, refusing to take action may very well be the correct moral/ethical choice in any given situation, but it's not forgiving, it's enabling.

12 step programs require their adherents to ask for forgiveness of people they have wronged (with the exception of where asking for forgiveness would cause harm. This is as much for the 12 stepper as it is for the wronged person.

Being willing to forgive is good, but actually forgiving (i.e., letting a person who feels remorse know you are not holding their transgression against them) is much, much better.

This seems like a rather meritless criticism in the context of this thread. Was there supposed to be some point?

 

[Buzz Dixon]

Philosoft --

Yeah, the point is God can't forgive by ignoring the sin. That isn't forgiving, that's enabling. Folks want to argue God should enable instead of forgive, fine, but use the terminology.

God can only forgive when a person acknowledges they are a sinner and are in need of forgiveness. The very act of refusing to ask for forgiveness is what constitutes the separation from God, i.e., Hell.

Basically, God is saying, "Wanna come to My house?" and people are either saying "Sure" or "No."

And apologizing in advance is this sounds snarky or judgmental, because I certainly am not intending that, but a person who puts love of another human being above love of God is also separating themselves from God.

 

[Philosoft]

Yeah, the point is God can't forgive by ignoring the sin.

Can't... or won't?

That isn't forgiving, that's enabling. Folks want to argue God should enable instead of forgive, fine, but use the terminology.

It's kind of moot either way, since God gets to decide both what is or is not a sin and how to deal with sin.

God can only forgive when a person acknowledges they are a sinner and are in need of forgiveness. The very act of refusing to ask for forgiveness is what constitutes the separation from God, i.e., Hell.

Why do I need to ask for forgiveness? Jesus already died for my sins.

Basically, God is saying, "Wanna come to My house?" and people are either saying "Sure" or "No."

Grrr. I wish you would stop using absurdly simplistic generalizations. More often than not, you end up with horse hockey like this that completely ignores everything the atheist claims about his own beliefs.

And apologizing in advance is this sounds snarky or judgmental, because I certainly am not intending that, but a person who puts love of another human being above love of God is also separating themselves from God.

Well, I'm not too surprised. I have long suspected God is something of a crybaby.