you'll hate this thread, I guarantee it.

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Hi Uphill Battle,

This is an excellent reflexion!

Sorry, I haven't read through all the 24 pages of this thread, but I agree with you concerning the simplicity of early Christian worship.

From what I can see, there was liturgy in the early church but it was so simple that it probably resembled the simple Protestant services of our day!

What was in a Liturgy? Well, the service started out with hours and hours of Scripture reading - from the Old Testament and the New (Gospels, Epistles). Then a homely (or sermon) on how to live the Christian life was preached by an elder (I believe). Sometime in the liturgical service, there was the singing of Psalms. And a prayer meeting (prayers of thanksgiving and intercession and for the believers' present needs).

OK, towards the end of the meeting, there was this Eucharistic meal shared by all the believers (the non-believers present could not share into it so they had to leave). It was the Lord's Supper and many believed in the Real Presence, from what I can see.

A collection for the brothers in need was made.

It was really very simple and centered on the Word and the Eucharist.

This is my summary of what I have been reading here and there, anyways.

The first Christians were very Evangelical in nature.

Sounds like Orthodox Christianity to me...

Forgive me...

 

[benedictaoo]

Rev. 4....

I offer for your reading enjoyment. What worship looks like to God, "which must be done hereafter"

1After these things I looked, and behold a door was opened in heaven, and the first voice which I heard, as it were, of a trumpet speaking with me, said: Come up hither, and I will shew thee the things which must be done hereafter.

2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and behold there was a throne set in heaven, and upon the throne one sitting.

3 And he that sat, was to the sight like the jasper and the sardine stone; and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.

4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats; and upon the seats, four and twenty ancients sitting, clothed in white garments, and on their heads were crowns of gold.

5 And from the throne proceeded lightnings, and voices, and thunders; and there were seven lamps burning before the throne, which are the seven spirits of God.

6 And in the sight of the throne was, as it were, a sea of glass like to crystal; and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four living creatures, full of eyes before and behind.

7 And the first living creature was like a lion: and the second living creature like a calf: and the third living creature, having the face, as it were, of a man: and the fourth living creature was like an eagle flying.

8 And the four living creatures had each of them six wings; and round about and within they are full of eyes. And they rested not day and night, saying: Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, who was, and who is, and who is to come.

9 And when those living creatures gave glory, and honour, and benediction to him that sitteth on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever;

10 The four and twenty ancients fell down before him that sitteth on the throne, and adored him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying:

11 Thou art worthy, O Lord our God, to receive glory, and honour, and power: because thou hast created all things; and for thy will they were, and have been created.

That is an awful lot like Mass... Just saying...

 

[benedictaoo]

Revelation 5and there is more...

1And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne, a book written within and without, sealed with seven seals.

2 And I saw a strong angel, proclaiming with a loud voice: Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?

3 And no man was able, neither in heaven, nor on earth, nor under the earth, to open the book, nor to look on it.

4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open the book, nor to see it.

5 And one of the ancients said to me: Weep not; behold the lion of the tribe of Juda, the root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

6 And I saw: and behold in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the ancients, a Lamb standing as it were slain, having seven horns and seven eyes: which are the seven Spirits of God, sent forth into all the earth.

7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat on the throne.

8 And when he had opened the book, the four living creatures, and the four and twenty ancients fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints:

9 And they sung a new canticle, saying: Thou art worthy, O Lord, to take the book, and to open the seals thereof; because thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God, in thy blood, out of every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation.

10 And hast made us to our God a kingdom and priests, and we shall reign on the earth.

11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne, and the living creatures, and the ancients; and the number of them was thousands of thousands,

12 Saying with a loud voice: The Lamb that was slain is worthy to receive power, and divinity, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and benediction.

13 And every creature, which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them: I heard all saying: To him that sitteth on the throne, and to the Lamb, benediction, and honour, and glory, and power, for ever and ever.

14 And the four living creatures said: Amen. And the four and twenty ancients fell down on their faces, and adored him that liveth for ever and ever.

Have y'all figure out yet what the 7 seals are? The 7 Sacraments.

You can call us Catholics many things, but never call us unbiblical.

This is it-- the heavenly worship fulfilled by Christ with His own blood comes down to us. What is in heaven, what is eternal comes down to us (there is no time with God, it is all one moment in heaven, under the heavens, under the sea, it is all one moment, one single of act of worship ) and that is what worshipping in Spirit and in truth is. What is outside time and space comes down to us and we are worshipping on earth, in the here and now what we will be worshipping in eternity.

 

[benedictaoo]

Revelation 6

1And I saw that the Lamb had opened one of the seven seals, and I heard one of the four living creatures, as it were the voice of thunder, saying: Come, and see.
2And I saw: and behold a white horse, and he that sat on him had a bow, and there was a crown given him, and he went forth conquering that he might conquer.

3And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second living creature, saying: Come, and see.

4And there went out another horse that was red: and to him that sat thereon, it was given that he should take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another, and a great sword was given to him.

5And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third living creature saying: Come, and see. And behold a black horse, and he that sat on him had a pair of scales in his hand.

6And I heard as it were a voice in the midst of the four living creatures, saying: Two pounds of wheat for a penny, and thrice two pounds of barley for a penny, and see thou hurt not the wine and the oil.

7And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature, saying: Come, and see.

8And behold a pale horse, and he that sat upon him, his name was Death, and hell followed him. And power was given to him over the four parts of the earth, to kill with sword, with famine, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

9And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held.

10And they cried with a loud voice, saying: How long, O Lord (holy and true) dost thou not judge and revenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

11And white robes were given to every one of them one; and it was said to them, that they should rest for a little time, till their fellow servants, and their brethren, who are to be slain, even as they, should be filled up.

12And I saw, when he had opened the sixth seal, and behold there was a great earthquake, and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair: and the whole moon became as blood:

13And the stars from heaven fell upon the earth, as the fig tree casteth its green figs when it is shaken by a great wind:

14And the heaven departed as a book folded up: and every mountain, and the islands were moved out of their places.

15And the kings of the earth, and the princes, and tribunes, and the rich, and the strong, and every bondman, and every freeman, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of mountains:

16And they say to the mountains and the rocks: Fall upon us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth upon the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17For the great day of their wrath is come, and who shall be able to stand?

And here we have it. This is when John saw the "sign of the times", when Jesus will come again.

It's one moment... has anyone figure that out yet? There is no time with God.

When Christ offered His body and blood at the passover, He was offering Himself as the passover to God FOR SIN and the event that changed the world which was Good Friday was fufilled at that moment in heaven. The Eucharist is the sacrifice that Christ offered with His apostles "on that night" which is the same event that happened the next day which is what happens at every Mass through out the world. It's all one moment.

There is no time with God, it is all one moment- from the beginning of creation to the end of time, it's all in front of God right now.

So when we worship Him in Spirit and in truth, this is what we worship, from the beginning to the end, The story of our salvation began with Abraham and it ends with Christ our God who offered Himself as the passover Lamb and who is our High Priest who made the offering of Himself to God, "on that night" AND who will come again in glory.

So we also worship what has not unfolded yet-- that is what worshipping in spirit and in truth is, the passover Lamb who fortold and who was slain who now lives forever AND who will come again in glory.

 

[WarriorAngel]

Originally Posted by genez
It was informal. It was relaxed because those who taught were competent to teach. Not simply having the gift of gab like many "preacher boys" are like today.

WOnder what Paul would have thot about this statement...
He preached until midnight...and you think our priests are long winded.

To my friends in Christ who disbelieve in the Church...
DID you have time to read the Didache I posted?

BTW, the Didache is 100% proof that NOT every single thing the Apostles laid down and wrote for our salvation was put in the Bible. :

So now you have a dilemma.

You either believe in the Didache which is again part of Tradition, [as is canon, but you dispute the Lord wouldn't preserve Tradition outside of scriptures] and was written by the Apostles and inspired...
Or you deny it...because the Church [who you deny anyway] didnt have the gumption to add it to canon.

Tsk...this is a quandry.

See, this is proof from the Lord that He didnt want the Church to put everything in the Bible so He could teach those in this time...that not everything WILL be included in the Bible.

He knows us too well.

 

[holdon]

BTW, the Didache is 100% proof that NOT every single thing the Apostles laid down and wrote for our salvation was put in the Bible.

The Didache is wrong. Period. If you believe the Bible throw away the Didache, it's that simple. The Didache is 100% proof that the earliest christians strayed from the truth.....

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

The Didache is wrong. Period. If you believe the Bible throw away the Didache, it's that simple. The Didache is 100% proof that the earliest christians strayed from the truth.....

OH? This is an opinion.

"The Church" does not share it.

Forgive me...

 

[benedictaoo]

The Didache is wrong. Period. If you believe the Bible throw away the Didache, it's that simple. The Didache is 100% proof that the earliest christians strayed from the truth.....

 

[benedictaoo]

It's one moment... has anyone figure that out yet? There is no time with God.

When Christ offered His body and blood at the passover, He was offering Himself as the passover to God FOR SIN and the event that changed the world which was Good Friday was fufilled at that moment in heaven.

The Eucharist is the sacrifice that Christ offered with His apostles "on that night" which is the same event that happened the next day which is what happens at every Mass through out the world. It's all one moment.

There is no time with God, it is all one moment- from the beginning of creation to the end of time, it's all in front of God right now.

So when we worship Him in Spirit and in truth, this is what we worship, from the beginning to the end.

The story of our salvation unfolding began with Abraham and it ends with Christ our God who offered Himself as the passover Lamb and who is our High Priest who made the offering of Himself to God, "on that night" AND who will come again in glory.

So we also worship what has not unfolded yet-- that is what worshipping in spirit and in truth is, the passover Lamb who fortold and who was slain who now lives forever AND who will come again in glory.

 

[Albion]

What a colorful imagination!

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Revelation 5and there is more...

Have y'all figure out yet what the 7 seals are? The 7 Sacraments.

You can call us Catholics many things, but never call us unbiblical.

This is it-- the heavenly worship fulfilled by Christ with His own blood comes down to us. What is in heaven, what is eternal comes down to us (there is no time with God, it is all one moment in heaven, under the heavens, under the sea, it is all one moment, one single of act of worship ) and that is what worshipping in Spirit and in truth is. What is outside time and space comes down to us and we are worshipping on earth, in the here and now what we will be worshipping in eternity.

The 7 Sacraments are the 7 Seals.
Ok............Don't know if the Jews would see it that way though. Peace

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Luke 21:28 Beginning yet to-be-becoming/ginesqai <1096> (5738) these-things, up-bend!, and lift up! the heads of ye, thru-that is nearing the loosing/apolutrwsiV <629> of ye [Daniel 12/Reve 19,20]

Reve 21:6 And He said to me: "it-has-become/gegonen <1096> (5754). I am the alpha and the omega, the beginning and the end.
I, to the one thirsting, shall be giving out of the spring of the water of the life gratuitously.

 

[Albion]

The 7 Sacraments are the 7 Seals.
Ok............

Which might make a little more sense if it had not taken 1200 years before "the Church" decided to have the number of sacraments be 7. No wait...it still doesn't make any sense.

But here's a thought. The number 7 stands for so many different things in scripture that maybe we should have a thread where people get to choose their own guess from a list.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by holdon
The Didache is wrong. Period. If you believe the Bible throw away the Didache, it's that simple. The Didache is 100% proof that the earliest christians strayed from the truth.....

OH? This is an opinion.

"The Church" does not share it.

Forgive me...

Well, you know what they say about opinions..........

http://christianforums.com/t6730673-who-really-cares-what-the-ecfs-had-to-say.html
who-really-cares-what-the-ecfs-had-to-say

 

[benedictaoo]

What a colorful imagination!

thank you sir... may I have another?

 

[WarriorAngel]

The 7 Sacraments are the 7 Seals.
Ok............Don't know if the Jews would see it that way though. Peace

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Luke 21:28 Beginning yet to-be-becoming/ginesqai <1096> (5738) these-things, up-bend!, and lift up! the heads of ye, thru-that is nearing the loosing/apolutrwsiV <629> of ye [Daniel 12/Reve 19,20]

Reve 21:6 And He said to me: "it-has-become/gegonen <1096> (5754). I am the alpha and the omega, the beginning and the end.
I, to the one thirsting, shall be giving out of the spring of the water of the life gratuitously.

WHAT do the Jews have to do with Rev...?
In order for them to accept Rev...they have to believe in Jesus...and the Apostle John.

The Didache is wrong. Period. If you believe the Bible throw away the Didache, it's that simple. The Didache is 100% proof that the earliest christians strayed from the truth.....

So...your opnion, because you dont like the Didache...supercedes scholrs and the Church.

This folks is how many churches begin...
Tell ppl a false assertion and they believe it because it opposes the Church.


Does that...make it truth?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

WHAT do the Jews have to do with Rev...?
In order for them to accept Rev...they have to believe in Jesus...and the Apostle John.

Ya think?

Isaiah 61:2 And a Day of Vengeance of our Elohiym, To comfort all mourners

Reve 21:6 And He said to me: "it has become/gegonen <1096> (5754).I am the alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the End.
I, to the one thirsting/diywnti <1372> (5723) , shall be giving out of the spring of the water of the life gratuitously.

 

[holdon]

OH? This is an opinion.

"The Church" does not share it.

Forgive me...

Make up your mind: do you want to believe the Didache or the Bible. Which is it?

 

[Asinner]

Make up your mind: do you want to believe the Didache or the Bible. Which is it?

They are both a part of the same Tradition. The Didache does not contradict the Holy Scriptures.

Love,
Christina

 

[holdon]

They are both a part of the same Tradition. The Didache does not contradict the Holy Scriptures.

Love,
Christina

It does contradict the Scriptures and perverses the truth, posing as "the twelve apostles".

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

They are both a part of the same Tradition. The Didache does not contradict the Holy Scriptures.

Love,
Christina

Hi. Well I myself have never read it so I cannot form an opinion on that one way or the other.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to sunlover1 again.

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Y@sha`yah 61:1 "A Spirit of 'Adonai YHWH upon Me, Because YHWH has anointed Me To preach good tidings to the poor;
2 To call Year of good pleasure of YHWH, and a Day of Vengeance of our Elohiym.............

Luke 4:19 To proclaim Year of Lord acceptable.
21 He begins to say yet toward them "that today has been ful-filled/peplhrwtai <4137> (5769) the Scripture/Writing/grafh <1124>, this, in the ears of ye".