you'll hate this thread, I guarantee it. (2)

[Thekla]

It's not that you can't worship with one voice and one heart around one thought -- that's the goal of most every church regardless of affiliation. It's just that rote worship lends itself to being heart-less, mind-less and life-less. Again, every church struggles with some of its members in this regardless of how legalistic or free they claim themselves to be.

Go Cards!

there are potential 'pitfalls' in any form of worship

 

[Thekla]

It's not that you can't worship with one voice and one heart around one thought -- that's the goal of most every church regardless of affiliation. It's just that rote worship lends itself to being heart-less, mind-less and life-less. Again, every church struggles with some of its members in this regardless of how legalistic or free they claim themselves to be.

Go Cards!

there are potential 'pitfalls' in any form of worship

 

[Uphill Battle]

How you substantiate "creative" prayer and worship...

I see no command for NC christians to follow a litany. I see no command against creative, dynamic worship.

Christ said "you do this in my name ....in rememberance of me"

and we do. I don't see a command on exactly how we are to do that, beyond sharing the cup and bread. No formal prayers are in the scripture, that must be read. no blessings nor benedictions exist in the passage that must be followed.

He did mean you repeat this.. that is the Eucarist that was worship.

if you say so. I don't believe that it's the same, but that is irrelevant.

They practiced it historically proven, which you bypassed it, (as per my post above) just 16 years (it was recorded ) after Christ's death and resurrection...

I guess I missed that particular bit of evidence, with all the problems CF has been having. would you give post number, or repost?

So? Where is your proof for "creative worship and prayer?:"

I need none.

And BTW that example about your wife was so poor... We are not talking about human relatioships here but us and GOD... God is God and deserves respect.

no doubt. That of course, does not mean that God does not desire real conversation with us.

Moses was told to remove his shoes before talking to Him.. Wanting it or not you see God antrhopocentrically... He is not your "beer buddy" having Him over to watch the game... He is God and deserves all Honour, and Glory and worship....

nor did I equate him with a beer buddy, just shooting the bull.

your using a kneejerk reaction to someone who doesn't agree with you. I know that God is worthy of all honour, Glory and worship. He also wants us to speak to him. He says as much. And he gives no command for us to follow scripts to do so. the "our father" that so many use as a prayer template, is demonstrative of that fact. Real, heartfelt talking to God.

Us too... when we sing, we prey twice, Augustine said.

But I think this is UpHill theology ad it is not so much the understanding of all protestants.

Signing a song of praise and worship is indeed a prey to God.

that's right..... I'm a bigger heretic than even the average protestant.

but where do you get this false notion from?

How are you making this so subjective.

God asks for the Mass UB- that is what he asked for and you disbelieve that- but that's the truth.

I see no instance where he asked for the Mass. You just believe your chosen church's take on it. I do not.

That is worshipping in spirit and in truth. It's universal- we can all over the world worship God in the same moment with one voice- it's awesome UB. I wish you would stop denying yourself the fullness.

like I said, to me, it would be no more than reading a book out loud, no more than saying the right words at the right time, because it's what is expected. NOT interested.

It not coming from the heart is your decision- why do you choice that?

because I believe it is worthless for me to do. I do not believe that God wants it.

 

[PujolsNonRoidHomerHitter]

there are potential 'pitfalls' in any form of worship

Absolutely! So much of worship today is a 'tastebud' issue that is self-centered. How does it make me feel, do I like the music, the creeds are what resonate within my heart -- whatever the expression, when it's all said and done it's just a vehicle and since God will be looking at the heart I don't think it will matter what vehicle gets you closer to God's heart. (As long as isn't a Chevy or Dodge because Ford is the official vehicle of heaven. BTW all Protestants drive Fords.)

Go Cards! -- God's team.

 

[Philothei]

reposting.....

http://www.liturgica.com/html/litECh...e=null#Antioch


This is how we know historically about the Liturgy... there was structure and there was worship.

[FONT=arial,helvetica,sanserif]Early Worship in Antioch

[FONT=arial,helvetica,sanserif]If one realizes that Jewish worship was liturgical and provided the worship structure for the early Church, and then one reads the New Testament seriously, a whole new side to the question becomes clear. The earliest and clearest reference to liturgy comes in Acts, the book which chronicles the inception and growth of the early Church. The church at Antioch was the first Gentile church outside of Jerusalem, established approximately A.D. 38 when Barnabas was sent to teach there (Acts 11:25 ff.). Acts 13 describes the selection of Barnabas and St. Paul for the first missionary journey. This would have taken place approximately A.D. 46, in what by then was a well-established and structured community of believers. [/FONT]

[FONT=arial,helvetica,sanserif]Luke records that the calling of Paul and Barnabas was the work of the Holy Spirit, and that it took place during the "liturgy". The text reads, "as they were 'liturgizing' (leitourgounton) before the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said 'Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul to the work to which I have called them'"(Acts 13:2). Luke was a physician and well educated. He must have understood what he meant to say about worship: namely, that the community was together in formal and ritual worship, accompanied by fasting, when the Holy Spirit spoke. So in A.D. 46, this early church was worshiping in a liturgical manner using a Christian form carried over from the synagogue. And this was within sixteen years of the resurrection of Jesus Christ. The continuity of worship between the Old and New Covenants is very evident.[/FONT]
[FONT=arial,helvetica,sanserif]Credits[/FONT]


[FONT=arial,helvetica,sanserif]Parts of this page are excerpted from: Williams, B. and Anstall, H.; Orthodox Worship: A Living Continuity with the Synagogue, the Temple and the Early Church; Light and Life Publishing, Minneapolis, 1990. This book is available from our liturgical web store (learn more here).[/FONT] [FONT=arial,helvetica,sanserif]BACK TO TOP[/FONT]



And BTW I hate not only this thread but the whole CF right now for the mess.... with the posts... I do not think my last one got posted .....grrrr...[/FONT]

 

[Philothei]

Quote:
So? Where is your proof for "creative worship and prayer?:"
I need none.


What do you mean "I need none" ?


Then your "creative prayer" is baseless thus invalid...

 

[benedictaoo]

Quote:
So? Where is your proof for "creative worship and prayer?:"
I need none.


What do you mean "I need none" ?


Then your "creative prayer" is baseless thus invalid...

He don't need none???

He makes up stuff as he goes along? Oh yeah, I forgot everything is permitted and what he don't like is not beneficial.

 

[benedictaoo]

Quote:
So? Where is your proof for "creative worship and prayer?:"
I need none.


What do you mean "I need none" ?


Then your "creative prayer" is baseless thus invalid...

He don't need none???

He makes up stuff as he goes along? Oh yeah, I forgot everything is permitted and what he personally don't like is not beneficial.

 

[benedictaoo]

that's right..... I'm a bigger heretic than even the average protestant.

what's up with the attitude, you really dislike not being confirmed in your beliefs huh?

Are you feeling a little lone ranger and is that why you are being smart alec? Because no one has open arms embracing your own beliefs that you have "discovered"?

I see no instance where he asked for the Mass. You just believe your chosen church's take on it. I do not.

OT and Revelation and NT and Last Supper and John 6... and etc and so on.

like I said, to me, it would be no more than reading a book out loud, no more than saying the right words at the right time, because it's what is expected. NOT interested.

because that is your choice , you choose it to be stagnant and empty. WHY??? I'm asking, why?

because I believe it is worthless for me to do. I do not believe that God wants it.

Based on what you thinks God does not want this? He rebukes hearts that love Him and come to Him in worship??? He only wants hearts to come to him in worship in some free forming way?

where do you get that notion from?

 

[benedictaoo]

that's right..... I'm a bigger heretic than even the average protestant.

what's up with the attitude, you really dislike not being confirmed in your beliefs huh?

Are you feeling lone ranger-ish and is that why you are being smart alec? Because no one has open arms embracing your own beliefs that you have "discovered"?

I see no instance where he asked for the Mass. You just believe your chosen church's take on it. I do not.

OT and Revelation and NT and Last Supper and John 6... and etc and so on.

like I said, to me, it would be no more than reading a book out loud, no more than saying the right words at the right time, because it's what is expected. NOT interested.

because that is your choice , you choose it to be stagnant and empty. WHY??? I'm asking, why?

because I believe it is worthless for me to do. I do not believe that God wants it.

Based on what do you think God does not want this? He rebukes hearts that love Him and come to Him in worship??? He only wants hearts to come to him in worship in some free forming way?

where do you get that notion from?

 

[Apollo Celestio]

I've never heard of a "creative" prayer before, care to elaborate?

 

[Philothei]

"I see no command for NC christians to follow a litany. I see no command against creative, dynamic worship." UB said


I see command to do in rememberance and I see the liturgical ethos of the Jewish temple to be the way the first Christians worshiped..

I see nowhere "dynamic" or "creative" worship mentioned... though.....


"and we do. I don't see a command on exactly how we are to do that, beyond sharing the cup and bread. No formal prayers are in the scripture, that must be read. no blessings nor benedictions exist in the passage that must be followed." UB said

wrong again... it is in the ACTS... and there is historical evidence that there was a standard.


He did mean you repeat this.. that is the Eucarist that was worship. if you say so. I don't believe that it's the same, but that is irrelevant.

What do you mean it is ireelevant... In the Greek he says "do this " in continious tense... Do this always in my name.. And it is very relevant... You cannot dismiss this one as irrelevant ...But that is typical of what you do ..isn't it to win an argument you dismiss the evidence..


"nor did I equate him with a beer buddy, just shooting the bull." UB said.



Cut to the chase will ya? and give me a break ... so typical of you when you are cornered...

"your using a kneejerk reaction to someone who doesn't agree with you. : UB said

save me the characterizations...of what I do and what I do not ... You have presented nothing but talk up to know...
"I know that God is worthy of all honour, Glory and worship. He also wants us to speak to him. He says as much. And he gives no command for us to follow scripts to do so." UB said

He did tell Moses to remove his shoes that is we have to show respect and he did tell us to do the eucarist (that you irrevently called it "cup and bread" while it is the blood and body of Christ..

"the "our father" that so many use as a prayer template, is demonstrative of that fact. Real, heartfelt talking to God."UB said


The text in the NT about the prayer of our Fahter does not testify to that sorry...




You have been told before it is in the disposition of the one who prays not the content... of the prayer...neither the context... You can pray "creatively" for hours and still not praying because you utter words just the same. It is in the intent that we mess up praying to God not the way we deliver... So even if you call him "buddy" or "All mighty God" (like many of us prefer to do... ) it all depends of how in tune we are with Him.


Also, to reinforce that Christ did encourage prayer continuisly and repetitive... we could look into the Gesthemane prayer (Garden of the Olive trees)

Christ prayed the same thing...

about God taking away his temptation and also encouraged his disciples to watch over him and pray also...What? He would ask them not to repeat the same prayer again?


Gethsemane from Matthew

36Then Jesus went with his disciples to a place called Gethsemane, and he said to them, "Sit here while I go over there and pray." 37He took Peter and the two sons of Zebedee along with him, and he began to be sorrowful and troubled. 38Then he said to them, "My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death. Stay here and keep watch with me."

39Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, "My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will."
40Then he returned to his disciples and found them sleeping. "Could you men not keep watch with me for one hour?" he asked Peter. 41"Watch and pray so that you will not fall into temptation. The spirit is willing, but the body is weak."
42He went away a second time and prayed, "My Father, if it is not possible for this cup to be taken away unless I drink it, may your will be done."
43When he came back, he again found them sleeping, because their eyes were heavy. 44So he left them and went away once more and prayed the third time, saying the same thing. 45Then he returned to the disciples and said to them, "Are you still sleeping and resting? Look, the hour is near, and the Son of Man is betrayed into the hands of sinners. 46Rise, let us go! Here comes my betrayer!"



From Mark...where it says to Peter to pray... and be watchful.

Gethsemane

32They went to a place called Gethsemane, and Jesus said to his disciples, "Sit here while I pray." 33He took Peter, James and John along with him, and he began to be deeply distressed and troubled. 34"My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death," he said to them. "Stay here and keep watch."

35Going a little farther, he fell to the ground and prayed that if possible the hour might pass from him. 36"Abba,[e] Father," he said, "everything is possible for you. Take this cup from me. Yet not what I will, but what you will."
37Then he returned to his disciples and found them sleeping. "Simon," he said to Peter, "are you asleep? Could you not keep watch for one hour? 38Watch and pray so that you will not fall into temptation. The spirit is willing, but the body is weak."
39Once more he went away and prayed the same thing. 40When he came back, he again found them sleeping, because their eyes were heavy. They did not know what to say to him. 41Returning the third time, he said to them, "Are you still sleeping and resting? Enough! The hour has come. Look, the Son of Man is betrayed into the hands of sinners. 42Rise! Let us go! Here comes my betrayer!"

if you are praying for someone who is sick ... you mean God will get "bored" with the same request? how absurd that would be....

 

[benedictaoo]

It's not that you can't worship with one voice and one heart around one thought -- that's the goal of most every church regardless of affiliation. It's just that rote worship lends itself to being heart-less, mind-less and life-less. Again, every church struggles with some of its members in this regardless of how legalistic or free they claim themselves to be.

Go Cards!

That's theirs choice though.. liturgy can not be blamed for what ppl choose to do.

Y'all have got to get past worshipping based on emotion... come on- I'd like to see y'all grow more.

 

[Apollo Celestio]

I'll agree, emotions are not to be our focus, though since most people are emotions, I'd also think emotions have their part to play as well. We're to be doers of the word, I don't think how we worship will land us in hell, as long as we love God and want to help, perhaps that is a better form of worship, and not just doing good works or anything, but living the life he has called us to live. Hi everyone, hope you all had a nice lent..

 

[Uphill Battle]

Quote:
So? Where is your proof for "creative worship and prayer?:"
I need none.


What do you mean "I need none" ?


Then your "creative prayer" is baseless thus invalid...

no, it means I need none.

God created us as dynamic, creative individuals.

He don't need none???

He makes up stuff as he goes along? Oh yeah, I forgot everything is permitted and what he personally don't like is not beneficial.

Best not to speak for other people. It's rather presumptious, and rude.

what's up with the attitude, you really dislike not being confirmed in your beliefs huh?

no, I dislike religious arrogance.

Are you feeling lone ranger-ish and is that why you are being smart alec? Because no one has open arms embracing your own beliefs that you have "discovered"?

nope. I'm no lone ranger. I have many friends who feel the same way I do. But that isn't the point. Even if nobody agreed, I'd feel the same. I'm not a sycophant.

OT and Revelation and NT and Last Supper and John 6... and etc and so on.

yeah, I know what your church uses those passages for.

because that is your choice , you choose it to be stagnant and empty. WHY??? I'm asking, why?

no, it IS stagnant and empty to me.

Based on what do you think God does not want this? He rebukes hearts that love Him and come to Him in worship??? He only wants hearts to come to him in worship in some free forming way?

where do you get that notion from?

you don't listen. I said I don't think he wants inauthentic worship. For me, that would be following a script. God does not want holy words, with no heart.

I've never heard of a "creative" prayer before, care to elaborate?

it's nothing really. They are trying to make it seem like I mean "anything goes." What I DO mean, is praying to God using my own words, instead of reading off someone elses prayer.

"I see no command for NC christians to follow a litany. I see no command against creative, dynamic worship." UB said


I see command to do in rememberance and I see the liturgical ethos of the Jewish temple to be the way the first Christians worshiped..

I see nowhere "dynamic" or "creative" worship mentioned... though.....

firstly, it would be beneficial to use the quote function.

THAT out of the way, I see a command to take bread and wine together. If we WERE to do it like in the passage, you'd be doing the entire passover meal. You do not however. So, the whole "this is how it's done, this is how we do it" is invalid. I'm quite familiar with the fact that the first Jewish converts to Christianity continued liturgical worship. That is no suprise. They were Jews, and that is what they were used to. I am not a Jew. Neither were a great many people whom converted after the first "batch" of Jews. (look in to it. You'll find that it wasn't too long until almost ALL the converts were gentiles, as opposed to Jews.)

"and we do. I don't see a command on exactly how we are to do that, beyond sharing the cup and bread. No formal prayers are in the scripture, that must be read. no blessings nor benedictions exist in the passage that must be followed." UB said

wrong again... it is in the ACTS... and there is historical evidence that there was a standard.


He did mean you repeat this.. that is the Eucarist that was worship. if you say so. I don't believe that it's the same, but that is irrelevant.

What do you mean it is ireelevant... In the Greek he says "do this " in continious tense... Do this always in my name.. And it is very relevant... You cannot dismiss this one as irrelevant ...But that is typical of what you do ..isn't it to win an argument you dismiss the evidence..

yes. Do this. Take bread, take wine, in communion in rememberance. Not "say these exact words, in this exact order, every time, all the time, to the exclusion of all else. It isn't there.

"nor did I equate him with a beer buddy, just shooting the bull." UB said.



Cut to the chase will ya? and give me a break ... so typical of you when you are cornered...

cornered? hardly. You've said nothing to convince me that my opinion of how I am to pray and worship is wrong. You just don't like anyone who doesn't do things as you do. It's religious snobbery.

"your using a kneejerk reaction to someone who doesn't agree with you. : UB said

save me the characterizations...of what I do and what I do not ... You have presented nothing but talk up to know...

sorry. I can't do anything but talk. I don't have everything scripted for me.

"I know that God is worthy of all honour, Glory and worship. He also wants us to speak to him. He says as much. And he gives no command for us to follow scripts to do so." UB said

He did tell Moses to remove his shoes that is we have to show respect and he did tell us to do the eucarist (that you irrevently called it "cup and bread" while it is the blood and body of Christ..

it is a cup and bread. How is that irreverant? just because you worship the cup and bread, doesn't mean I have to.

"the "our father" that so many use as a prayer template, is demonstrative of that fact. Real, heartfelt talking to God."UB said


The text in the NT about the prayer of our Fahter does not testify to that sorry...

sure it does. "Pray like this." not "pray these words exactly."

You have been told before it is in the disposition of the one who prays not the content... of the prayer...neither the context... You can pray "creatively" for hours and still not praying because you utter words just the same. It is in the intent that we mess up praying to God not the way we deliver... So even if you call him "buddy" or "All mighty God" (like many of us prefer to do... ) it all depends of how in tune we are with Him.

right. and if you had been reading what I've said repeatedly, I didn't condemn anyone for using liturgy. I state why I have a problem with it, and why I reject it. What YOU do is no skin off my nose.

Also, to reinforce that Christ did encourage prayer continuisly and repetitive... we could look into the Gesthemane prayer (Garden of the Olive trees)

Christ prayed the same thing...

yes, he did. He prayed the same thing at the same time. Over the course of the time he was under that great duress, he prayed three times for God to take the cup from him.

that is NOT indicitive of Jesus praying the same thing week in and week out. Nor, is it indicitive of Jesus taking a script, and reading it. ( I snipped the scripture for post brevity. I think we both know what it says. We just disagree on what it entails.)

if you are praying for someone who is sick ... you mean God will get "bored" with the same request? how absurd that would be....

no. And that isn't the point.

you are either not getting it, or deliberatly overlooking it.

 

[Philothei]

no, it means I need none.

God created us as dynamic, creative individuals.

Best not to speak for other people. It's rather presumptious, and rude.

no, I dislike religious arrogance.
nope. I'm no lone ranger. I have many friends who feel the same way I do. But that isn't the point. Even if nobody agreed, I'd feel the same. I'm not a sycophant.


yeah, I know what your church uses those passages for.


no, it IS stagnant and empty to me.

you don't listen. I said I don't think he wants inauthentic worship. For me, that would be following a script. God does not want holy words, with no heart.


it's nothing really. They are trying to make it seem like I mean "anything goes." What I DO mean, is praying to God using my own words, instead of reading off someone elses prayer.


firstly, it would be beneficial to use the quote function.

THAT out of the way, I see a command to take bread and wine together. If we WERE to do it like in the passage, you'd be doing the entire passover meal. You do not however. So, the whole "this is how it's done, this is how we do it" is invalid. I'm quite familiar with the fact that the first Jewish converts to Christianity continued liturgical worship. That is no suprise. They were Jews, and that is what they were used to. I am not a Jew. Neither were a great many people whom converted after the first "batch" of Jews. (look in to it. You'll find that it wasn't too long until almost ALL the converts were gentiles, as opposed to Jews.)



yes. Do this. Take bread, take wine, in communion in rememberance. Not "say these exact words, in this exact order, every time, all the time, to the exclusion of all else. It isn't there.
cornered? hardly. You've said nothing to convince me that my opinion of how I am to pray and worship is wrong. You just don't like anyone who doesn't do things as you do. It's religious snobbery.

sorry. I can't do anything but talk. I don't have everything scripted for me.
it is a cup and bread. How is that irreverant? just because you worship the cup and bread, doesn't mean I have to.


sure it does. "Pray like this." not "pray these words exactly."


right. and if you had been reading what I've said repeatedly, I didn't condemn anyone for using liturgy. I state why I have a problem with it, and why I reject it. What YOU do is no skin off my nose.
yes, he did. He prayed the same thing at the same time. Over the course of the time he was under that great duress, he prayed three times for God to take the cup from him.

that is NOT indicitive of Jesus praying the same thing week in and week out. Nor, is it indicitive of Jesus taking a script, and reading it. ( I snipped the scripture for post brevity. I think we both know what it says. We just disagree on what it entails.)




no. And that isn't the point.

you are either not getting it, or deliberatly overlooking it.

lol... for your last comment... You are defenately too obstinate to admit that you have no more comments to offer here ....

I brought about the Gesthemane example and the Eucarist and both you tried unsuccesfully to dispute them...

You twisted even the Eucaristic celebration and command by saying he did not mean "repeat it" when it does say that... using continius present.. ha ... no knoweldge of Greek.....too bad...


The Eucarist is to be celebrated weekly it is recorded they did celebrated "repeadidly" even every day... dah... I wonder if they repeated the same prayers? They recited the Lord's prayer and you are saying he did not say that is is HOW you shall pray but... He said.. pray AS this ....


ΚΑΤΑ ΜΑΤΘΑΙΟΝ 6:9-13



9ουτως ουν προσευχεσθε υμεις πατερ ημων ο εν τοις ουρανοις αγιασθητω το ονομα σου
10ελθετω η βασιλεια σου γενηθητω το θελημα σου ως εν ουρανω και επι γης
11τον αρτον ημων τον επιουσιον δος ημιν σημερον
12και αφες ημιν τα οφειληματα ημων ως και ημεις αφηκαμεν τοις οφειλεταις ημων
13και μη εισενεγκης ημας εις πειρασμον αλλα ρυσαι ημας απο του πονηρου



1881 Westcott-Hort New Testament (WHNU) Public Domain


ΚΑΤΑ ΛΟΥΚΑΝ 11:2-4



2ειπεν δε αυτοις οταν προσευχησθε λεγετε πατερ αγιασθητω το ονομα σου ελθετω η βασιλεια σου 3τον αρτον ημων τον επιουσιον διδου ημιν το καθ ημεραν 4και αφες ημιν τας αμαρτιας ημων και γαρ αυτοι αφιομεν παντι οφειλοντι ημιν και μη εισενεγκης ημας εις πειρασμον



so that you might have an objection in the Gospel in Mark... He is more "direct" he does not say "pray as" but .... ONLY "Pray by saying" so there... It is not a model but an acual prayer given to us to pray it... I do not think that the historians who have also recorded that first Christians used that prayer... they were sinning or they had a "
choice" to not use this prayer as it was a commandment of Christ to pray it and they did... now if you want to insist more into your relavistic notions of worship be my guest.....


Both historically and scripturally your thesis is debunked...

 

[Philothei]

no, it means I need none.

God created us as dynamic, creative individuals.

Best not to speak for other people. It's rather presumptious, and rude.

no, I dislike religious arrogance.
nope. I'm no lone ranger. I have many friends who feel the same way I do. But that isn't the point. Even if nobody agreed, I'd feel the same. I'm not a sycophant.


yeah, I know what your church uses those passages for.


no, it IS stagnant and empty to me.

you don't listen. I said I don't think he wants inauthentic worship. For me, that would be following a script. God does not want holy words, with no heart.


it's nothing really. They are trying to make it seem like I mean "anything goes." What I DO mean, is praying to God using my own words, instead of reading off someone elses prayer.


firstly, it would be beneficial to use the quote function.

THAT out of the way, I see a command to take bread and wine together. If we WERE to do it like in the passage, you'd be doing the entire passover meal. You do not however. So, the whole "this is how it's done, this is how we do it" is invalid. I'm quite familiar with the fact that the first Jewish converts to Christianity continued liturgical worship. That is no suprise. They were Jews, and that is what they were used to. I am not a Jew. Neither were a great many people whom converted after the first "batch" of Jews. (look in to it. You'll find that it wasn't too long until almost ALL the converts were gentiles, as opposed to Jews.)



yes. Do this. Take bread, take wine, in communion in rememberance. Not "say these exact words, in this exact order, every time, all the time, to the exclusion of all else. It isn't there.
cornered? hardly. You've said nothing to convince me that my opinion of how I am to pray and worship is wrong. You just don't like anyone who doesn't do things as you do. It's religious snobbery.

sorry. I can't do anything but talk. I don't have everything scripted for me.
it is a cup and bread. How is that irreverant? just because you worship the cup and bread, doesn't mean I have to.


sure it does. "Pray like this." not "pray these words exactly."


right. and if you had been reading what I've said repeatedly, I didn't condemn anyone for using liturgy. I state why I have a problem with it, and why I reject it. What YOU do is no skin off my nose.
yes, he did. He prayed the same thing at the same time. Over the course of the time he was under that great duress, he prayed three times for God to take the cup from him.

that is NOT indicitive of Jesus praying the same thing week in and week out. Nor, is it indicitive of Jesus taking a script, and reading it. ( I snipped the scripture for post brevity. I think we both know what it says. We just disagree on what it entails.)




no. And that isn't the point.

you are either not getting it, or deliberatly overlooking it.

lol... for your last comment... You are defenately too obstinate to admit that you have no more comments to offer here ....

I brought about the Gesthemane example and the Eucarist and both you tried unsuccesfully to dispute them...

You twisted even the Eucaristic celebration and command by saying he did not mean "repeat it" when it does say that... using continius present.. ha ... no knoweldge of Greek.....too bad...


The Eucarist is to be celebrated weekly it is recorded they did celebrated "repeadidly" even every day... dah... I wonder if they repeated the same prayers? They recited the Lord's prayer and you are saying he did not say that is is HOW you shall pray but... He said.. pray AS this ....


ΚΑΤΑ ΜΑΤΘΑΙΟΝ 6:9-13



9ουτως ουν προσευχεσθε υμεις πατερ ημων ο εν τοις ουρανοις αγιασθητω το ονομα σου
10ελθετω η βασιλεια σου γενηθητω το θελημα σου ως εν ουρανω και επι γης
11τον αρτον ημων τον επιουσιον δος ημιν σημερον
12και αφες ημιν τα οφειληματα ημων ως και ημεις αφηκαμεν τοις οφειλεταις ημων
13και μη εισενεγκης ημας εις πειρασμον αλλα ρυσαι ημας απο του πονηρου



1881 Westcott-Hort New Testament (WHNU) Public Domain


ΚΑΤΑ ΛΟΥΚΑΝ 11:2-4



2ειπεν δε αυτοις οταν προσευχησθε λεγετε πατερ αγιασθητω το ονομα σου ελθετω η βασιλεια σου 3τον αρτον ημων τον επιουσιον διδου ημιν το καθ ημεραν 4και αφες ημιν τας αμαρτιας ημων και γαρ αυτοι αφιομεν παντι οφειλοντι ημιν και μη εισενεγκης ημας εις πειρασμον



so that you might have an objection in the Gospel in Mark... He is more "direct" he does not say "pray as" but .... ONLY "Pray by saying" so there... It is not a model but an acual prayer given to us to pray it... I do not think that the historians who have also recorded that first Christians used that prayer... they were sinning or they had a "
choice" to not use this prayer as it was a commandment of Christ to pray it and they did... now if you want to insist more into your relavistic notions of worship be my guest.....


Both historically and scripturally your thesis is debunked...

 

[benedictaoo]

Uphill, All I hear is I am allowed to worship the way I want to because the bible says every--thing is permitted but I say what is beneficial.

and religious arrogance- see Uphill battle for that one.

You are so obtuse.... my heart bleeds for you.

 

[Uphill Battle]

lol... for your last comment... You are defenately too obstinate to admit that you have no more comments to offer here ....

I brought about the Gesthemane example and the Eucarist and both you tried unsuccesfully to dispute them...

You twisted even the Eucaristic celebration and command by saying he did not mean "repeat it" when it does say that... using continius present.. ha ... no knoweldge of Greek.....too bad...


The Eucarist is to be celebrated weekly it is recorded they did celebrated "repeadidly" even every day... dah... I wonder if they repeated the same prayers? They recited the Lord's prayer and you are saying he did not say that is is HOW you shall pray but... He said.. pray AS this ....


ΚΑΤΑ ΜΑΤΘΑΙΟΝ 6:9-13



9ουτως ουν προσευχεσθε υμεις πατερ ημων ο εν τοις ουρανοις αγιασθητω το ονομα σου
10ελθετω η βασιλεια σου γενηθητω το θελημα σου ως εν ουρανω και επι γης
11τον αρτον ημων τον επιουσιον δος ημιν σημερον
12και αφες ημιν τα οφειληματα ημων ως και ημεις αφηκαμεν τοις οφειλεταις ημων
13και μη εισενεγκης ημας εις πειρασμον αλλα ρυσαι ημας απο του πονηρου



1881 Westcott-Hort New Testament (WHNU) Public Domain


ΚΑΤΑ ΛΟΥΚΑΝ 11:2-4



2ειπεν δε αυτοις οταν προσευχησθε λεγετε πατερ αγιασθητω το ονομα σου ελθετω η βασιλεια σου 3τον αρτον ημων τον επιουσιον διδου ημιν το καθ ημεραν 4και αφες ημιν τας αμαρτιας ημων και γαρ αυτοι αφιομεν παντι οφειλοντι ημιν και μη εισενεγκης ημας εις πειρασμον



so that you might have an objection in the Gospel in Mark... He is more "direct" he does not say "pray as" but .... ONLY "Pray by saying" so there... It is not a model but an acual prayer given to us to pray it... I do not think that the historians who have also recorded that first Christians used that prayer... they were sinning or they had a "
choice" to not use this prayer as it was a commandment of Christ to pray it and they did... now if you want to insist more into your relavistic notions of worship be my guest.....


Both historically and scripturally your thesis is debunked...

you have demonstrated that you don't get my point.

I'm not repeating myself.

 

[Uphill Battle]

lol... for your last comment... You are defenately too obstinate to admit that you have no more comments to offer here ....

I brought about the Gesthemane example and the Eucarist and both you tried unsuccesfully to dispute them...

You twisted even the Eucaristic celebration and command by saying he did not mean "repeat it" when it does say that... using continius present.. ha ... no knoweldge of Greek.....too bad...


The Eucarist is to be celebrated weekly it is recorded they did celebrated "repeadidly" even every day... dah... I wonder if they repeated the same prayers? They recited the Lord's prayer and you are saying he did not say that is is HOW you shall pray but... He said.. pray AS this ....


ΚΑΤΑ ΜΑΤΘΑΙΟΝ 6:9-13



9ουτως ουν προσευχεσθε υμεις πατερ ημων ο εν τοις ουρανοις αγιασθητω το ονομα σου
10ελθετω η βασιλεια σου γενηθητω το θελημα σου ως εν ουρανω και επι γης
11τον αρτον ημων τον επιουσιον δος ημιν σημερον
12και αφες ημιν τα οφειληματα ημων ως και ημεις αφηκαμεν τοις οφειλεταις ημων
13και μη εισενεγκης ημας εις πειρασμον αλλα ρυσαι ημας απο του πονηρου



1881 Westcott-Hort New Testament (WHNU) Public Domain


ΚΑΤΑ ΛΟΥΚΑΝ 11:2-4



2ειπεν δε αυτοις οταν προσευχησθε λεγετε πατερ αγιασθητω το ονομα σου ελθετω η βασιλεια σου 3τον αρτον ημων τον επιουσιον διδου ημιν το καθ ημεραν 4και αφες ημιν τας αμαρτιας ημων και γαρ αυτοι αφιομεν παντι οφειλοντι ημιν και μη εισενεγκης ημας εις πειρασμον



so that you might have an objection in the Gospel in Mark... He is more "direct" he does not say "pray as" but .... ONLY "Pray by saying" so there... It is not a model but an acual prayer given to us to pray it... I do not think that the historians who have also recorded that first Christians used that prayer... they were sinning or they had a "
choice" to not use this prayer as it was a commandment of Christ to pray it and they did... now if you want to insist more into your relavistic notions of worship be my guest.....


Both historically and scripturally your thesis is debunked...

you have demonstrated that you don't get my point.

I'm not repeating myself.