you'll hate this thread, I guarantee it. (2)

[Montalban]

Is it just me or are the posts getting all scrambled around here? I just posted something that got put back in between some older posts...? What's up?

Montalban,
if you're looking for my replies, one ended up as #66 on page 7, and the other as #76 on page 8.

Neither of these posts are by you

 

[Rick Otto]

quote=Uphill Battle; comparing apples and t-bone steaks.

BTW, my wife is both the T-Bone Steak and the apples in a pie for desert.

if I were to say to my wife the same thing every day, I think she'd get the point that I wasn't putting much effort into it. We aren't talking about a simple "I love you." Were talking about a conversation. Actually communicating.

You mean you think she would think your both 'playin' it safe' and takin' the easy, convenient way of dutifully fulfilling your responsibility in the relationship by goin' thru the motions instead of bein' enthused enough to be spontaneously open and able to verbalize the flow of thoughts and emotions as they happen?
Wouldn't that leave you terribly vulnerable and dependant upon His goodness & mercy?

 

[Montalban]

Not yours.

ROFL.

Holo says he believes in the Bible, but that it's flawed. He discards certain parts as being culturally relative, but claims he doesn't discard any of it.

I ask him where, and he states some vague notions. I refute some by scripture and he's still insisting that they're there. He said the Bible supports slavery, then refuted this by saying that such notions are easily argued against.

I've asked him to cite from the Bible proofs that his interpretation is correct, and I'm still waiting for this

 

[Uphill Battle]

I am not sure your worship tradition, but virtually all use borrowed words during worship. The words of Charles Wesley, Isaac Watts or John Newton are often repeated - prayerfully - in genuine, heartfelt worship, as are the words of Paul in the consecration of the emblems, the words of Mary in reciting magnificat, or the words of Christ when praying "Our Father".

Do you consider singing hymns or spiritual songs "parroting the words of someone else"? Can not genuine worship exist when you are singing such words?

Peace and blessings

I've made a very clear distinction between singing, and prayer. If I am to pray to my Father in heaven, it will be in my own words, speaking to him without any contrived script, "holy" words to make me sound more spiritual, and formulas to follow.

it is conversation.

I know you're frustrated because you don't know which argument you wish to have, but there's no point blaming me. You said yourself that all that mattered was to state a faith in Jesus! That's all!

no. I'm frustrated because you are lying about what It is that I DO say. You are quickly becoming the most dishonest person in this thread.

I never said that we're to only pray that; in fact we use other prayers too. Why you believe one is valid, and others mere 'parroting' is only based on you repeating that it is so

for me, it would be. squawking like a parrot, saying absolutely nothing.

I agree. You've just refuted yourself then!

no, we've found rare agreement. I've refuted nothing.

That's what YOU said. If it's taken out of a context, then give it a context! I'm going by what you said.

I've explained myself before. I'm not repeating it so you can twist it again. I've had enough dishonesty.

Who knows then what your point is at any given moment

I do, and I'm sure a few others know too. Just because you are very talented at missing the point, is not my problem.

Again, because you say so. You're the one who made the grand sweeping statement that all repetition is meaningless.

I DID NOT SAY THIS.

You KNOW that I said it would be meaningless for ME to do so. If YOU can use a script to get close to God, bully for you. You know I did not condemn others for it, so STOP LYING.

So do you, or don't keep changing it all the time?

I agree. So I take it any time you come home from work and she asks "How was your day?" she's being insincere

Why's it meaningless if I use one person's prayer one day, and someone else's another day?

yes, I actually have dynamic conversation with my wife. I don't have a script book that I open to speak to her, one script this day, another script for another.

and you are being petty. We are not talking about "how was your day." We are talking about taking someones conversation that is written down, and following it.

and if it is not meaningless for you, great. I have been VERY clear that it is meaningless for ME to do it. I find zero meaning in using other peoples words, scripted, to talk to God. I find it worthless to me. I am NOT saying anything about how other people do it, that's their perogative.

Well, when you get around to making up your mind what it is you object to, let me know.

Your posts look more like objecting for the sake of objecting.

Try putting your thoughts into some kind of context then

I object to rude, lying individuals who twist words to fit their argument to poison the well so that they can feel like their winning something.

Still waiting for Uphill Battle to explain what he relies on to show that he should only rely on Scripture.

I've done so. You are lying again.

BTW, my wife is both the T-Bone Steak and the apples in a pie for desert.


You mean you think she would think your both 'playin' it safe' and takin' the easy, convenient way of dutifully fulfilling your responsibility in the relationship by goin' thru the motions instead of bein' enthused enough to be spontaneously open and able to verbalize the flow of thoughts and emotions as they happen?
Wouldn't that leave you terribly vulnerable and dependant upon His goodness & mercy?

who'd have thunk it?

 

[Philothei]

Quote:
if I were to say to my wife the same thing every day, I think she'd get the point that I wasn't putting much effort into it. We aren't talking about a simple "I love you." Were talking about a conversation. Actually communicating.



That is the silliest analogy I ever heard so far.... lol... God compared to our spouse? I think the amount of communication needed for God transends any human relationship on this earth.

I think you mix up God for a human here... God does wants us to show the ultimate respect to Him (no that we do not respect our spouse) but it goes beyond that. Being spontaneous has nothing to do with praying to God... God does not need "human spontenity" (the way you put it). There are plenty of examples in the Old Testament of how we should respect God for example Moses removed his shoes before the burning bush....

Do you remove your shoes before talking to your spouse? I do not think so....But in the Proterstant world Christ is a "buddy"....

The early church since the NT times worshiped in a "liturgical" manner we can see that in Acts....


The church at Antioch was the first Gentile church outside of Jerusalem, established approximately A.D. 38 when Barnabas was sent to teach there (Acts 11:25 ff.). Acts 13 describes the selection of Barnabas and St. Paul for the first missionary journey. This would have taken place approximately A.D. 46, in what by then was a well-established and structured community of believers.


Luke records that the calling of Paul and Barnabas was the work of the Holy Spirit, and that it took place during the "liturgy". The text reads, "as they were 'liturgizing' (leitourgounton) before the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said 'Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul to the work to which I have called them'"(Acts 13:2). Luke was a physician and well educated. He must have understood what he meant to say about worship: namely, that the community was together in formal and ritual worship, accompanied by fasting, when the Holy Spirit spoke. So in A.D. 46, this early church was worshiping in a liturgical manner using a Christian form carried over from the synagogue. And this was within sixteen years of the resurrection of Jesus Christ. The continuity of worship between the Old and New Covenants is very evident.


http://www.liturgica.com/html/litEChLitDev.jsp?hostname=null#Antioch


Y'all can say whatever but you cannot change historical facts... and the Apostles did pray the litrugy as we know it today.... they had structure and order of doing the Liturgy.....

 

[Philothei]

http://www.liturgica.com/html/litEChLitDev.jsp?hostname=null#Antioch


This is how we know historically about the Liturgy... there was structure and there was worship.

[FONT=arial,helvetica,sanserif]Early Worship in Antioch[/FONT]

[FONT=arial,helvetica,sanserif]If one realizes that Jewish worship was liturgical and provided the worship structure for the early Church, and then one reads the New Testament seriously, a whole new side to the question becomes clear. The earliest and clearest reference to liturgy comes in Acts, the book which chronicles the inception and growth of the early Church. The church at Antioch was the first Gentile church outside of Jerusalem, established approximately A.D. 38 when Barnabas was sent to teach there (Acts 11:25 ff.). Acts 13 describes the selection of Barnabas and St. Paul for the first missionary journey. This would have taken place approximately A.D. 46, in what by then was a well-established and structured community of believers.

Luke records that the calling of Paul and Barnabas was the work of the Holy Spirit, and that it took place during the "liturgy". The text reads, "as they were 'liturgizing' (leitourgounton) before the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said 'Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul to the work to which I have called them'"(Acts 13:2). Luke was a physician and well educated. He must have understood what he meant to say about worship: namely, that the community was together in formal and ritual worship, accompanied by fasting, when the Holy Spirit spoke. So in A.D. 46, this early church was worshiping in a liturgical manner using a Christian form carried over from the synagogue. And this was within sixteen years of the resurrection of Jesus Christ. The continuity of worship between the Old and New Covenants is very evident.[/FONT]
[FONT=arial,helvetica,sanserif]Credits[/FONT]


[FONT=arial,helvetica,sanserif]Parts of this page are excerpted from: Williams, B. and Anstall, H.; Orthodox Worship: A Living Continuity with the Synagogue, the Temple and the Early Church; Light and Life Publishing, Minneapolis, 1990. This book is available from our liturgical web store (learn more here).[/FONT] [FONT=arial,helvetica,sanserif]BACK TO TOP[/FONT]



And BTW I hate not only this thread but the whole CF right now for the mess.... with the posts... I do not think my last one got posted .....grrrr...

 

[Philothei]

One thing is for sure UB.... you never present any evidence for your claims... just fat words. Sorry but Montalban is right you never stick with one issue and find problems with what we ask. You never anwered to Benedicta or me...

 

[Uphill Battle]

One thing is for sure UB.... you never present any evidence for your claims... just fat words. Sorry but Montalban is right you never stick with one issue and find problems with what we ask. You never anwered to Benedicta or me...

which redundant question did I miss?

and how can I present evidence for what would be meaningless to ME?

that's rather silly.

 

[Rick Otto]

Hey U-Be, your words are fat. (derisive: "ha,ha")
I think you nailed him on bein' picayune, bruh.
I see this affection for structure, ceremony, etc. and I hear it's out of affection for the Lord, but there's a sense of one's salvation, instead of simply one's justification, being at stake. There's more of a compulsive edge of duty against inertia of the flesh rather than the enthusiasm of gratitude - my opinion.
When in fact, if you're one who loves the Lord, it's a relief to remember;
Ro 8:30 - Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.


But re: religion,...
Lu 16:15 - And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.

People having problems with what people ask is about there being a problem with the premise upon which the questions rest.

 

[christianmomof3]

I posted this before, but I think it got lost:

Romans 14 : 3 He who eats, let him not despise him who does not eat; and he who does not eat, let him not judge him who eats, for God has received him.

The basis on which we receive the believers is that God has received them. God receives people according to His Son. When a person receives God's Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, as his Savior, God receives that person immediately and ushers him into the enjoyment of the Triune God and of all He has prepared and accomplished in Christ for us. We should receive people in the same way and should not be more narrow than God. Regardless of how much they differ from us in doctrinal concepts or religious practices, we must receive them. When we receive people according to God and not according to doctrine or practice, we demonstrate and maintain the oneness of the Body of Christ.

 

[Kristos]

those verses cut both ways.

 

[disasm]

I've made a very clear distinction between singing, and prayer. If I am to pray to my Father in heaven, it will be in my own words, speaking to him without any contrived script, "holy" words to make me sound more spiritual, and formulas to follow.

That distinction doesn't exist in Orthodoxy. Hymnography is just as much prayer as any other act of the Church. We do distinguish between, liturgical, corporate and personal prayer, but all 3 are prayer, and two can't exist without the third.

Our foundation of prayer is the liturgical life of the Church. The services we have where we come together as the whole body (all across the world). This includes litanies (requests, such as "For all those who have gone in this life before us, especially the Priest Miroslav, let us pray to the Lord. Lord Have mercy"), blessings (statements, ie. Blessed is our God, always now and ever, and unto ages), Scriptures (Kathisma's from the Psalms, Epistle and OT readings, as well as the core, the Gospel readings), Hymnography (Troparia and Kontakion for the day, Stichera, for example, Tropar during Pascha is "Christ is Risen from the dead, trampling down death by death, and upon those in the tombs bestowing life"), and every other part of the service. It is all liturgical prayer, and it is our foundation in our prayer life.

The next form of prayer is corporate. This is praying together outside of Church. Whether it be meal prayers together, doing a Trisagion for a loved one, prayers during a meeting or whatever else comes to mind.

Then, the third form is personal prayer. This includes formed prayers, such as evening prayer, morning prayers, prayers for certain needs, as well as informal prayer, and of most importance but most difficult, the prayer of silence ("Be still and know that I am God"). The prayer of silence is more than just silence of the mouth, but silence of the mind as well. There are many writings on acquiring the prayer of silence, many having to focus on the usage of the "Jesus Prayer" ("Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me the sinner.") to lead into this prayer of silence, but as Elder Cleopa said, it takes years and years to reach the stage of complete silence in prayer.

Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me the sinner.

 

[disasm]

I've made a very clear distinction between singing, and prayer. If I am to pray to my Father in heaven, it will be in my own words, speaking to him without any contrived script, "holy" words to make me sound more spiritual, and formulas to follow.

That distinction doesn't exist in Orthodoxy. Hymnography is just as much prayer as any other act of the Church. We do distinguish between, liturgical, corporate and personal prayer, but all 3 are prayer, and two can't exist without the third.

Our foundation of prayer is the liturgical life of the Church. The services we have where we come together as the whole body (all across the world). This includes litanies (requests, such as "For all those who have gone in this life before us, especially the Priest Miroslav, let us pray to the Lord. Lord Have mercy"), blessings (statements, ie. Blessed is our God, always now and ever, and unto ages), Scriptures (Kathisma's from the Psalms, Epistle and OT readings, as well as the core, the Gospel readings), Hymnography (Troparia and Kontakion for the day, Stichera, for example, Tropar during Pascha is "Christ is Risen from the dead, trampling down death by death, and upon those in the tombs bestowing life"), and every other part of the service. It is all liturgical prayer, and it is our foundation in our prayer life.

The next form of prayer is corporate. This is praying together outside of Church. Whether it be meal prayers together, doing a Trisagion for a loved one, prayers during a meeting or whatever else comes to mind.

Then, the third form is personal prayer. This includes formed prayers, such as evening prayer, morning prayers, prayers for certain needs, as well as informal prayer, and of most importance but most difficult, the prayer of silence ("Be still and know that I am God"). The prayer of silence is more than just silence of the mouth, but silence of the mind as well. There are many writings on acquiring the prayer of silence, many having to focus on the usage of the "Jesus Prayer" ("Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me the sinner.") to lead into this prayer of silence, but as Elder Cleopa said, it takes years and years to reach the stage of complete silence in prayer.

Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me the sinner.

 

[holo]

test

 

[holo]

test

 

[Rdr Iakovos]

I've made a very clear distinction between singing, and prayer. If I am to pray to my Father in heaven, it will be in my own words, speaking to him without any contrived script, "holy" words to make me sound more spiritual, and formulas to follow.

It would seem as if you are suggesting that this is our intent, to "sound more spiritual."

Otherwise, you might have simply said that it just doesn't 'feel right' to you.

And this is just another way of being more spiritual than us, ironically.

Not that it matters, James gives us the test of being 'spiritual'- and it doesn't involve worship form. It involves "bridling (one's) tongue."

You KNOW that I said it would be meaningless for ME to do so. If YOU can use a script to get close to God, bully for you. You know I did not condemn others for it, so STOP LYING.

I don't know about before this post, but it would appear that, in a round about way, you have condmened others for worshipping through the liturgical form.

yes, I actually have dynamic conversation with my wife. I don't have a script book that I open to speak to her, one script this day, another script for another.

And yet I'm betting that you had a script at your wedding, and that you do when you give her a card or poem. Perhaps you have a favorite song, 'your song' that you share together.

Orthdox prayer is both liturgical (when together) and spontaneous (when in private devotion).

 

[Philothei]

which redundant question did I miss?

and how can I present evidence for what would be meaningless to ME?

that's rather silly.

How you substantiate "creative" prayer and worship... Christ said "you do this in my name ....in rememberance of me" He did mean you repeat this.. that is the Eucarist that was worship. They practiced it historically proven, which you bypassed it, (as per my post above) just 16 years (it was recorded ) after Christ's death and resurrection... So? Where is your proof for "creative worship and prayer?:"

And BTW that example about your wife was so poor... We are not talking about human relatioships here but us and GOD... God is God and deserves respect. Moses was told to remove his shoes before talking to Him.. Wanting it or not you see God antrhopocentrically... He is not your "beer buddy" having Him over to watch the game... He is God and deserves all Honour, and Glory and worship....

 

[benedictaoo]

That distinction doesn't exist in Orthodoxy. Hymnography is just as much prayer as any other act of the Church. We do distinguish between, liturgical, corporate and personal prayer, but all 3 are prayer, and two can't exist without the third.

Our foundation of prayer is the liturgical life of the Church. The services we have where we come together as the whole body (all across the world). This includes litanies (requests, such as "For all those who have gone in this life before us, especially the Priest Miroslav, let us pray to the Lord. Lord Have mercy"), blessings (statements, ie. Blessed is our God, always now and ever, and unto ages), Scriptures (Kathisma's from the Psalms, Epistle and OT readings, as well as the core, the Gospel readings), Hymnography (Troparia and Kontakion for the day, Stichera, for example, Tropar during Pascha is "Christ is Risen from the dead, trampling down death by death, and upon those in the tombs bestowing life"), and every other part of the service. It is all liturgical prayer, and it is our foundation in our prayer life.

The next form of prayer is corporate. This is praying together outside of Church. Whether it be meal prayers together, doing a Trisagion for a loved one, prayers during a meeting or whatever else comes to mind.

Then, the third form is personal prayer. This includes formed prayers, such as evening prayer, morning prayers, prayers for certain needs, as well as informal prayer, and of most importance but most difficult, the prayer of silence ("Be still and know that I am God"). The prayer of silence is more than just silence of the mouth, but silence of the mind as well. There are many writings on acquiring the prayer of silence, many having to focus on the usage of the "Jesus Prayer" ("Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me the sinner.") to lead into this prayer of silence, but as Elder Cleopa said, it takes years and years to reach the stage of complete silence in prayer.

Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me the sinner.

Us too... when we sing, we prey twice, Augustine said.

But I think this is UpHill theology ad it is not so much the understanding of all protestants.

Signing a song of praise and worship is indeed a prey to God.

 

[benedictaoo]

What does God want from us? Authentic worship. What does he think of ritual without heart in it? Sin.

but where do you get this false notion from?

How are you making this so subjective.

God asks for the Mass UB- that is what he asked for and you disbelieve that- but that's the truth.

That is worshipping in spirit and in truth. It's universal- we can all over the world worship God in the same moment with one voice- it's awesome UB. I wish you would stop denying yourself the fullness.

For me, parroting the words of someone else, would be no authentic prayer. It would be worship devoid of thought and heart, and would be worthless.

unless of course, you think there is some special power in the words as opposed to the praying itself.

Prayer is conversing with God. I see no reason to use someone elses words, in fact, I find it rather rude. Think if you were to speak that way to anyone here. If they wanted to speak with you, have a relationship with you, and you read off what someone else has said, everytime you get together for a converstation.

that is why it would be wrong for me to do. It is no different than the man who eats meat, although firmly convinced it would be sin to do so.

I'm not answering this question again, I've been VERY clear.

It not coming from the heart is your decision- why do you choice that?

 

[PujolsNonRoidHomerHitter]

but where do you get this false notion from?

How are you making this so subjective.

God asks for the Mass UB- that is what he asked for and you disbelieve that- but that's the truth.

That is worshipping in spirit and in truth. It's universal- we can all over the world worship God in the same moment with one voice- it's awesome UB. I wish you would stop denying yourself the fullness.



It not coming from the heart is your decision- why do you choice that?

It's not that you can't worship with one voice and one heart around one thought -- that's the goal of most every church regardless of affiliation. It's just that rote worship lends itself to being heart-less, mind-less and life-less. Again, every church struggles with some of its members in this regardless of how legalistic or free they claim themselves to be.

Go Cards!