You must be born again to be saved?

[1stcenturylady]

So even babies are capable of sinning with their thoughts, and therefore even babies can repent.

The don't know the difference between right and wrong yet. They are not accountable for their actions yet.

 

[Yarddog]

How does a baby repent?

In the ancient Church, salvation doesn't end at baptism but is a life long process. Parents are supposed to teach their children about a life in Christ and the need to ask for and accept forgiveness of sin.

 

[1stcenturylady]

In the ancient Church, salvation doesn't end at baptism but is a life long process. Parents are supposed to teach their children about a life in Christ and the need to ask for and accept forgiveness of sin.

If a child receives the Holy Spirit at baptism, can they still sin?

 

[dreadnought]

The don't know the difference between right and wrong yet. They are not accountable for their actions yet.

No, they are in contact with the Lord from the moment they are born.

 

[1stcenturylady]

No, they are in contact with the Lord from the moment they are born.

So then they will never sin - cool!

 

[Yarddog]

If a child receives the Holy Spirit at baptism, can they still sin?

Yep. Just like all Christians.

 

[1stcenturylady]

Yep. Just like all Christians.

That's not scriptural.

9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

 

[JIMINZ]

To enter, you must be born again

.
Well then, are you Born Again?

 

[dreadnought]

So then they will never sin - cool!

We all sin.

 

[1stcenturylady]

We all sin.

We all sinned willfully before Christ, yes. But not after.

9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

But this is only true for those who actually are filled with the Holy Spirit.

 

[Yarddog]

That's not scriptural.

9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Do you form all your doctrine by one verse or do you read them all.
1 John tells us that if we say that we are without sin, we make God a liar and his word is not in us.

 

[1stcenturylady]

Do you form all your doctrine by one verse or do you read them all.
1 John tells us that if we say that we are without sin, we make God a liar and his word is not in us.

Right. Before Christ if we say we are without sin, we make God a liar and his Word is not in us. No one since Adam sinned, is free of sin. That is why we need Christ. He then gives us the Holy Spirit.

There was a false doctrine going around at the time called the Gnostics. They did not believe Jesus came in the flesh, but only in Spirit. So only sins of the spirit mattered, but sins of the flesh were not sins at all. Thus, they say they were without sin, even though they were sinning on purpose to show how grace abounds. John tells a bit about them in the same letter. 4:1-3

 

[dreadnought]

We all sinned willfully before Christ, yes. But not after.

9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

But this is only true for those who actually are filled with the Holy Spirit.

We are always faced with temptation. Sometimes we don't succeed 100% in resisting temptation.

 

[1stcenturylady]

We are always faced with temptation. Sometimes we don't succeed 100% in resisting temptation.

Then explain the scripture. Why did John say Christians don't sin? Only those whose father is the devil.

 

[dreadnought]

Then explain the scripture. Why did John say Christians don't sin? Only those whose father is the devil.

If you were perfect, then you wouldn't sin. How many of us are perfect?

 

[Brokenhill]

I understand your mindset. I understand that in places in the bible baptism followed directly after accepting Christ.

The problem that I have is that the thief on the cross was saved and was not baptized. Are you saying that it is mandatory for some but not others?

Baptism into Christ is baptism into His death (as Romans 6 explains). Jesus was still alive when He told the thief he would be with Him in paradise, so Christian baptism hadn't really existed at that point. The new covenant in general hadn't come into full affect yet, since the death of Jesus was necessary--see Hebrews 9:15-16.

How about the soldier, in war, dying, and the Chaplin comes over to his side and he asks what he has to do to be saved. The Chaplin holds his hand and walks him through it.. seconds later the man dies, not baptized..... Another special case?

Ultimately, these types of scenarios don't prove anything either. I understand the desire to bring these up (we all do it at some point or another), but even if there are exceptions to the rule it doesn't change the rule. But we have no right or authority to make a judgement on what God should or shouldn't do in circumstances like you mentioned. And regardless of what God does decide in those times, it doesn't change what He has revealed to us in His Word.

A lot of non-believers or atheists like to question us: "what about all those obscure, isolated tribes in the amazon jungle...do they need Jesus to be saved when they've never heard of Jesus? It's not fair if they have never been preached to."
And what do we say to them? We say what we know...If Jesus really is the Son of God, and He is the ONLY way to the Father, then it is what it is. If God takes special exception to those people, it's really not of our concern...we should be focusing on what we know to do. I would ask an atheist "Are YOU in an obscure tribe in the amazon? NO--YOU can't take the ignorance route because i've already preached the Gospel to you."

I would say the same thing about baptism. YOU don't need to worry about the soldier dying the field (or the thief on the cross for that matter....even if Jesus told him that after He was resurrected)--YOU need to worry about baptism because you have the knowledge and capacity to respond!

Or, a group of teenagers at a youth rally, go forward at an alter call. They all give their lives to Christ. After the service, they do what teenagers do and go out to a fast food place for munchies... after that, on their way home, they are hit by a drunk driver... dead but saved, or not saved as they were not yet baptized

I have a return question for you.
What if those same teenagers died in a car accident Saturday night, after already planning on going to church on Sunday morning with the PURPOSE of responding to the altar call because they know it happens every service?
Would they be saved before committing their lives to Christ?

I just cannot see this profession of faith as part of the prerequisite for salvation. Salvation is not what we have done, not some ritual... It's the change of heart, the attitude of the heart, the accepting of who Christ is and the belief that He has saved your and forgiven your sins.....

Is Baptism important.. of course it is.. It fulfills the "confessing with your mouth" part. But, to say you are not saved without it.. I think that is an error of men.

That sounds nice, but that's not what Jesus and His apostles taught.
Salvation is ultimately of God's grace...however, God has expectations of us and even conditions for us to ACCEPT the gift.

When your dad dies and leaves you with $300,000 as part of your inheritance...you didn't earn that, but the money doesn't just magically appear in your hand because he died. You have to contact the proper legal authorities, and sign some contract, and then finally take the check to the bank to actually get the money.

Likewise, when we survey the WHOLE New Testament, we find that the following is how we accept God's gift of grace:

-Hearing/understanding what the gospel is (Romans 10:17)
-believing in the gospel of Jesus (John 3:16)
-confessing our faith in it (Matthew 10:32)
-repenting of our sins (Luke 5:32)
-being baptized in water (Acts 2:38, which is when we receive the Holy Spirit)

One thing we should not forget is that God is a JUST God. He is a "consuming fire". He is not only gracious, but He is also very serious and sometimes rigid when it comes to people obeying Him.

John 4:24 "God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”

I agree, no man has the right to say if someone "made it to heaven" or not. Especially not on what the person has done or not done.

I do believe that all who are coached to accepting Christ should also be encouraged to be baptized.... I just don't think salvation depends on it.

I just want to make the point that baptism is not really a work (like feeding the poor or something), when you look at what it really is, it's the ABSENCE of our human abilities...we are SUBMITTING to baptism...we are DYING to ourselves...someone else physically baptizes us and God SPIRITUALLY baptizes us.
If you think about it that way, you can appreciate how it's really about God and not us...even though yes we "do" something.

Also, there are multiple places where it talks about baptism prior to the forgiveness of sin (Acts 2:38). And actually in 1 Peter 3:21 it says "Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you-not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience-through the resurrection of Jesus Christ'

Well, to be honest, I haven't really read up on this topic. I do know that the bible states that after death comes judgement. I cannot say that I believe that saved and unsaved go to the same place. This is evident in the story of Lazarus and the rich man. They were obviously in different places. Are they both in Hades? IDK.

I do believe that the unsaved are judged at the great white throne judgement at the end of the millennial age. However Christians will rule, with Christ, on earth during this period. Therefore, the saved must have already been judged, rewarded, had the marriage of Christ and His bride.

Like I said, I haven't really researched it and don't really care. I know that after I die I will not be in a place of any sort of worry or burden. I will be in a better place than here. Whether heaven or a "good" part of Hades.... IDK

I'm pretty sure that when Jesus died.. He went to Hell, preached to the unsaved and got the keys..What all this means for those He preached to... I am certainly not sure either....

But, He had to go there as part of His punishment. Did He not?. He had to endure what I would have endured as a sinner. He had to do this in order to accomplish his paying the price of the sinner.

Again, I don't have a lot of interest in this. Maybe I should, but as a Christian, other things are higher on my priority than where sinners and saints go when they die as they wait for the rest of time to play out. I know I will be and all saved will be in a better place than here.

I understand. And you're right that it's more important to focus on the here and now on earth and just do God's will. We can't fully know all the details of what happens after death.

And you're right, Hebrews 9:27 says "And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment,". But I don't think it can mean immediate judgment, based on what other passages talk about.

And I am not familiar with all the different "a/pre/post/whatever-millenialism" idealogoies, but I do think 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 is important to know:
"16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words."

So it says that though Christ will return, He actually isn't coming back to be on the ground, as we will meet Him in the heavens...and then 2 Peter 3 teaches that the earth will be completely destroyed.

So I don't think that 1,00 year reign stuff can happen and be in agreement with those passages.
Revelation is a symbolic book.

But anyway, thanks for discussing this with me
I just encourage you to just keep studying yourself and not necessarily believing what your pastor/preacher or even me says about anything...just keep going back to the source!

 

[1stcenturylady]

If you were perfect, then you wouldn't sin. How many of us are perfect?

That would be every sin, but willful sin is what we are talking about in 1 John 3:9. A Christian does not commit sins we know are sins.

There is another category of sin that is covered automatically when we are walking in the Spirit. They are unknown sins. They are sins the Holy Spirit has not taught us about yet.

but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.

 

[Brokenhill]

Then explain the scripture. Why did John say Christians don't sin? Only those whose father is the devil.

In 1 John 1:9, Christians are being talked to, not unbelevers:

"8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us."

Christians stumble, but it's different than walking in darkness.

I think the point he's making in 1 John 3:9, is the same point Jesus made in John 15:
"5 I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned."

We will be known by our fruits...if we become joined with Christ and allow the Spirit to guide us, we will bear good fruit and be known as of God. However, even if we are joined to Christ and yet turn away and practice evil, we will be known by our bad fruit...and Jesus will cut us off and throw us in the fire.

Just because we are in Christ at 1 point doesn't mean we are forever in Christ IF WE CHOOSE OTHERWISE.

Free will always exists while we are alive. "Once saved always saved" is a false doctrine.

 

[1stcenturylady]

In 1 John 1:9, Christians are being talked to, not unbelevers:

"8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us."

Christians stumble, but it's different than walking in darkness.

I think the point he's making in 1 John 3:9, is the same poitn jesus made in John 15:
"5 I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned."

Actually, 9 is following 8, which is not a Christian. 9 is how they may become a Christian.

 

[JIMINZ]

I understand that in places in the bible baptism followed directly after accepting Christ.

.
Maybe some clarification is in order.

It isn't just that there are some places in the Bible where Baptism follows Belief, that is the next step in our conversion. ..From death unto Life.

You have cited a few cases which question Baptism as a prerequisite for Salvation.

Lets look at it realistically.

1) God draws someone to Himself and just when they Believe, God slams the door in their face, because they died on the Cross beside Jesus and never got Baptized, or were killed on the way home from a youth rally, or the Solder on the Battlefield....If that was true, I wouldn't want to know that God in the first place.

John 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Rom. 9:18
Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

We see then, whether Drawing, or Hardening, it's by the Grace of God.

With that understood, we then know it is all of God, not us.

Rom. 9:15
For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

Now, this is the Formula set down by Jesus Himself concerning our Salvation.

Mark 16:16
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Mat 28:19
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

So we see from the mouth of Jesus, there is a set Formula for Salvation to be properly completed.

Now, we understand the examples you gave of those dying before they could become Baptized were extreme examples, but the Norm is, people becoming Believers, then becoming Baptized and then living long lives.

Here though is where the questions arise.

1) What about the person who does become a Believer, but never becomes Baptized
2) Can Belief alone Save him?

A person who becomes a Believer, receives Forgiveness of sins that are past.......Only.

Rom. 3:25
Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

This person goes on to live their life without the Holy Spirit, not having ever been Baptized (Born Again), unto Newness of life, they therefore do not live their lives in the Spirit, but remain in the Flesh.

This person will continue to sin as they had in the past, the Old Man (Body of Flesh) never died, therefore they are no different than someone who never Believed, they are still in their sins.

The Person who Believes and is then Baptized has passed from Death unto Life

John 5:21
For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.

John 5:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

John.3:6
That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

1Jn 3:10
In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil:

1Jn 3:8,9
8) He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9) Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

In conclusion.
This profession of faith (Baptism) IS the prerequisite for Salvation.

Salvation is not just some Ritual, which we have done, ... It is however what actually takes place during the Baptism Process.

Rom. 6:5
For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

Php. 3:10
That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;

Gal. 3:27
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

1 Pe 4:1,2
1) Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
2) That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.

Rom 6:10,11
10) For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11) Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Gal. 2:20
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.